Your opinion on the Isekai genre?

[Dreamysyu]

I'm creating this thread in the anime/manga talk, since this trope seems to be relatively uncommon among translated VNs, but I think there's nothing wrong in discussing VNs too.

In case somebody doesn't know what Isekai is, I'm quoting Wikipedia:

Quote

Isekai is a subgenre of Japanese fantasy light novels, manga, anime, and video games revolving around a normal person being transported to or trapped in a parallel universe. Often, this universe already exists in the protagonist's world as a fictional universe, but it may also be unbeknownst to them.

So, what do you people think about it? Do you watch anime or read manga/LNs where the protagonist transfers to another world, and do you like how the stories like that are handled in the Japanese media?

[+StrikeR+]

I love it, it has quickly become my favorite genre, though it is one of those things that i loved or longed for even before knowing it existed.

[Kurisu-Chan]

My opinion on the isekai genre.

Well.

Well.

if i had the choice, between getting a cool space ship and visiting the galaxy and pork sexy aliens, or simply a time machine to relive all the cool events of humanity.

I'd track down EVERY, SINGLE, ISEKAI "writer" and pay them a full tuition in writing theory, then proceed to burn every single copy of isekai LN, then probably end up installing a dictatorship where Isekai is banned and every isekai "writer" is tracked down by the Scenarist Squads, all over the place, ah..the good days.

Then i'd end up defeated by a single isekai writer because he learned how to make good books...but even if i get defeated, my job would've been done, i'd have taught isekai writers how to decently write a story.

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Kurisu-Chan

[TexasDice]

I would much rather just have a normal fantasy setting. Trying to get immersed into a fantastical world and then be pulled out every time, because some science/real world shit has to be explained, takes me out of the experience. 

I call this abhorrent phenomenon the "Assassin's Creed-effect". 

[solidbatman]

me no like things. me no like isekai genre

[bakauchuujin]

I think people are way to harsh on isekai.

In my opinion there are good isekai series.

Some examples being No Game No Life, Re:zero and Konosuba.

Some examples of decent, though maybe not fantastic isekai series would be Log Horizon and Overlord.

Just because there are a lot not so good series within the genre it doesn't mean that everything within it is trash.

Edited May 4, 2018 by bakauchuujin

[Vongalaxy]

My opinion which is basically a fact is that the genre is overused and literally everyone and their mother just shit out their own version of the same thing and somehow the turd is still popular. Sure there are some gems at the bottom of the cesspool but overall the genre is still shit.

[Kenshin_sama]

I'm more or less inclined to enjoy it, though it probably stems from my love for fantasy in general than isekai in particular. As with all genres, there will be isekai anime I love, and isekai anime I hate or don't care for, though I've yet to find any that I didn't enjoy (and yes, this does mean I like SAO, fight me). I would have to say I've enjoyed Re:Zero the most as it had a very interesting, and more believable, take on isekai where the protagonist isn't a major hotshot and actually has a pretty interesting personality to observe and analyze. As this genre continues to grow more and more saturated, I can only hope we see more shows like Re:Zero tackle the genre with a fresh new outlook and explore it with greater ingenuity than what we've been seeing from everything else.

As much I really enjoy isekai anime, I do think they have a lot of room for improvement. For one, they need to stop focusing so much on wish fulfillment; I get that the genre thrives on that aspect and I'm perfectly okay with moderate use, but there needs to be more substance to engage viewers. I'd also think it'd be really cool if they added more unconventional elements to these types of anime, especially given how many liberties one can take with a parallel universe setting. Lastly, I don't think writers should restrict their setting and force the protagonist to just stay in the world he/she is transferred to. It'd be nice if they took the same approach as Inuyasha where the characters can easily jump between the modern world and the fantasy one, and possibly have some form of collision between the two.

[Kurisu-Chan]

Thanks for talking about Re;Zero.

You see, Re;Zero...is probably one of the worst Light Novel i have put my hands on, the writer of the Light Novel seems to know nothing about things like : consistency, actual world building and not world stealing, good dramatization, and fucking up the only good character AKA Rem with that personality shift, from a strong female character to a fucking carpet, no, even lowlier than a carpet.

The manga is a horror to read, it is filled to the brim with useless and unnecessary elements, it is not a bad manga, but definitely a medium to normal manga, isekai fans would prolly like the manga a lot.

The anime is...a different story, i have no idea how(well actually i do have an idea) but White Fox salvaged everything that was possible from the light novel, and made a surprisingly good anime, i still hate the anime because it is Isekai and the major problems of the LN are still here (major inconsistency with the protagonist, the whole Rem thingy) BUT, the anime has a much, much better story flow, the pacing is way better, there is almost zero time wasted in unnecessary stuff, and while some incoherences are still here, White Fox did prolly the best they could to make an actual good anime (a good anime that i hate for the sole purpose of being Isekai, btw).

The Isekai genre is not a bad genre, it is plagued, filled to the brim with wannabe writers who thinks it's as easy as staring in a porn movie to write a successful isekai story, and therefore, they put the minimal, the bare minimum efforts into crafting an actual story that isn't just otaku pandering, and actually serves some purpose other than just selling the exact same stuff again. The enemy is not isekai, the enemy is bad isekai writers. 

[Swim Swim]

Isekai is nothing but purely escapist wish fulfillment, using the same old tropes over and over again with little originality and basically no story.

I hate this genre with passion.

[Plk_Lesiak]

22 minutes ago, Swim Swim said:

Isekai is nothing but purely escapist wish fulfillment

Yeah, that's why I enjoy most isekai stuff even though it's usually shit.

I have to agree with @Kurisu-Chan though, writing in many isekai LNs and Anime is pathetic. I recently realised that when I reached past mid-season of Deathmarch, it started with a fun gimmick and a protagonist apparently completely disinterested in being a hero... And then made him do pointless heroics all the time. After all, God forbids something actually interesting or morally ambiguous happen in such a show...

Edited May 4, 2018 by Plk_Lesiak

[Norleas]

Doesn't matter how good the concept behind the genre is, when he becomes overused things quickly go downhill, and with the Japanese power of make even the best concept in the world a high school fan service fest with only trope characters, things only go worse.

[Clephas]

Some of the best anime and VNs out there are Isekai-mono... but the genre is pretty saturated lately (Smartphone and Death March pretty much prove this, since both series are sequel/2nd season bait where the story didn't really go anywhere in the first season). 

I love this genre... but then, I'm a fantasy fan.  Despite @Kurisu-Chan complaint, I don't think there is anything wrong with Isekai or historical fantasy writers in general... just that, like every fiction genre out there, the number of shitty wannabes far surpasses the number of capable individuals.  In the end, you just have to shrug and decide to treat good writers as deities and medium writers as junk food... or not read/watch at all. 

Of course, note that I'm an unabashed reader of the 1632 series by Eric Flint and I love Overlord and The Vision of Escaflowne, lol.  So... my opinions are probably biased (to say the least). 

[DarkZedge]

59 minutes ago, solidbatman said:

me no like things. me no like isekai genre

That being said, Isekai can be a good and fun genre if done well but nowadays there's such abundance of titles within that subgenre that makes me absolutely stay away from it. Not to mention the low quality that a lot of them suffer from.

As always it depends on it's originality and execution, for the moment I'm quite content staying away from it for the most part. 

[Clephas]

Oh, and I should note that I hate Re;Zero... though I never read the LN (the anime was so terrible I didn't want to).  The fact is, the genre is convenient for Japanese anime and otaku publishers.  Why?  Because it allows them to insert Japanese people into fantastical situations so that they can make it easy for their target audience to relate to the characters relative to the protagonist.  This is the reason Isekai-mono are the single most popular fantasy sub-genre in Japan.  It is also the reason why there are so many terrible writers putting out LN after LN of this type and why there is usually at least one of the type being aired in any given anime season in the last few years.  It is also the same reason charage are so popular in VNs, lol. 

@Swim Swim 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of modern fiction (regardless of where it comes from) is escapism.  *smiles dryly*  Condemning escapism means condemning fiction in general.

[Thyndd]

For those implying that Re:Zero is escapism and self-immersion fullfillment... wtf? Have we watched the same anime? Who in their right mind would want to be Subaru? Leaving aside all the flaws that could be brought up about it, Re:Zero is definitely one of those isekai that at least tries to simulate more or less realistically what would happen if a normal teenager was put in such a world. We could argue on how well it does that, but that's definitely the goal.

I have nothing against the isekai "genre" (though I'm not convinced that it can be considered a genre in its own right), as long as there is some coherence to how that world works. That is, the MC must adapt to the new world. Unfortunately often the opposite happens, and it's the new world that conspires to fulfill the MC's every whim. That's just boring to watch.

[Kurisu-Chan]

Just now, Thyndd said:

For those implying that Re:Zero is escapism and self-immersion fullfillment... wtf? Have we watched the same anime? Who in their right mind would want to be Subaru? Leaving aside all the flaws that could be brought up about it, Re:Zero is definitely one of those isekai that at least tries to simulate more or less realistically what would happen if a normal teenager was put in such a world. We could argue on how well it does that, but that's definitely the goal.

I have nothing against the isekai "genre" (though I'm not convinced that it can be considered a genre in its own right), as long as there is some coherence to how that world works. That is, the MC must adapt to the new world. Unfortunately often the opposite happens, and it's the new world that conspires to fulfill the MC's every whim. That's just boring to watch.

A normal teenager that happens to be both a Neet, a sweet talker, strong physics and the ability to change his mind every single time?

Yep, it is wish fullfilment, even if it is twisted.

[Thyndd]

4 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

A normal teenager that happens to be both a Neet, a sweet talker, strong physics and the ability to change his mind every single time?

Still a "normal" person, by the standards of the new world. I do think that his adaptation was too abrupt and not that brilliantly conducted, but still, I can't even begin to imagine how anyone would dream about being on Subaru's shoes. And to make it clear, that's my one and only point. I'm not here to defend the greatness of Re:Zero beyond that, for the record.

[Dreamysyu]

Oh, well. I didn't realize that this genre was that hated.

2 hours ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

Then i'd end up defeated by a single isekai writer because he learned how to make good books...but even if i get defeated, my job would've been done, i'd have taught isekai writers how to decently write a story.

Well, this is pretty understandable, actually. From what I understand, most light novel authors are amateurs, and quite many of the popular LN series were originally published on Syosetu. And we all know how good the things self-published online tend to be. Still, there are hidden gems, even though they are kind of difficult to find in this sea of shit. I don't think condemning the whole genre simply because the most titles are bad is such a good idea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for me, my opinion on Isekai is mixed. I only watched two Isekai anime (Re;Zero and Konosuba), plus some decent amount of light-novels, though I tend to avoid popular titles. I noticed that usually I enjoy exactly two types of Isekai (I'm counting reincarnation stories here):

1. Senseless, over-the-top comedies (like Konosuba).

2. The titles that actually try to be reasonably serious and attempt to do some decent worldbuilding and character development. And have female protagonist, since I can't stand LN-style harems. Well, the writing in them still tends to be pretty terrible to be honest.

As for Re;Zero, I don't know, I only watched the anime and I thought it was relatively enjoyable, though kind of overrated. Never read the LN.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Dreamysyu

[Kurisu-Chan]

Just now, Thyndd said:

Still a "normal" person, by the standards of the new world. I do think that his adaptation was too abrupt and not that brilliantly conducted, but still, I can't even begin to imagine how anyone would dream about being on Subaru's shoes. And to make it clear, that's my one and only point. I'm not here to defend the greatness of Re:Zero beyond that, for the record.

Don't be afraid of your opinion, defend it, don't let some pesky tsundere tell you what is wrong and what is good, that is healthy.

As to speak about Subaru, he is whatever the writer wants him to be, and that has a name : bad writing. 

[Dergonu]

I love isekai stuff. (My favorite would be Re;Zero, closely followed by Konosuba.) It's one of my favorite genres.

[Darklord Rooke]

I'm a big fan of isekai but there's an oversaturation at the moment. A lot of it is dodgy. Anyway this video is a good summary of the history of isekai and the future, and his conclusion is one I'm happy with -> that the anime industry is about to go full circle and isekai will soon morph into fantasy :3

 

[Kurisu-Chan]

Just now, Darklord Rooke said:

I'm a big fan of isekai but there's an oversaturation at the moment. A lot of it is dodgy. Anyway this video is a good summary of the history of isekai and the future, and his conclusion is one I'm happy with -> that the anime industry is about to go full circle and isekai will soon morph into fantasy :3

 

This video gave me cancer. 

[Kenshin_sama]

You know, I'm partly amazed there's been more discussion over Re:Zero than SAO. Are we finally at the point where no one gives a shit about SAO anymore? If that is indeed the case, isekai discussions are gonna be awfully dull (seriously, what am I gonna do with all this popcorn?).

7 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

As to speak about Subaru, he is whatever the writer wants him to be, and that has a name : bad writing. 

Isn't every character what the writer wants them to be? Whether it be minor, major, shoehorned in, or whatever, every character needs to play some kind of role that fulfills the needs of the story, and the writer has all the rights to craft these characters as he/she pleases in order to move the plot forward (unless it's part of a multi-series work, but that doesn't apply here).

[Kurisu-Chan]

Just now, Kenshin_sama said:

You know, I'm partly amazed there's been more discussion over Re:Zero than SAO. Are we finally at the point where no one gives a shit about SAO anymore? If that is indeed the case, isekai discussions are gonna be awfully dull (seriously, what am I gonna do with all this popcorn?).

Isn't every character what the writer wants them to be? Whether it be minor, major, shoehorned in, or whatever, every character needs to play some kind of role that fulfills the needs of the story, and the writer has all the rights to craft these characters as he/she pleases in order to move the plot forward (unless it's part of a multi-series work, but that doesn't apply here).

No, sorry, i have to diverge here.

Nope, a character, and by extension a protagonist, shouldn't be whatever the writer wants him to be, if it breaks laws of continuity and logic.

When you write a story, and thanks to 14 years of shitty writing in my backstory, the most important part of a story, for its believability, is the suspension of disbelief : when you establish a universe, you sign a contract with the reader/watcher, that for the rest of this story, you have this set of rules, the characters will follow this set of rules, and won't do anything that goes against the logic of the story.

If your character decides to act against its own logic or against the logic of the story 

Spoiler

my biggest example is Rem forgetting about the gigantic murderous whale, even if it was established before in the show that the story reloads still follows the same structure, AKA, Rem knew about the gigantic whale, but didn't warn subaru because it would have prevented the show to continue.

You may think it is nothing, but once the suspension of disbelief is broke, it is definitely broke.

Yes, obviously the writer is the master of the story, but you can't just spout any random bullshit for the sake of advancing the plot, you're not writing the story of a call of duty, your objective is to craft an actual good universe with characters that uses logic instead of deus ex machina, instead of being self-insert, instead of mary sue-ing their way.

 

I should add more emphasis on it, the difference between a good writer and a bad writer, is the ability to use the rules of his universe to do anything he wants, not just write off elements that he finds inconvenients.

And, while Tolkien fucked up with the Eagles, that doesn't mean he is a shitty writer, it just shows that even the greatest writers can fall into the rule-breaking trap.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Kurisu-Chan