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What makes a good mystery VN?


PiggiesGoMoo

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I've been thinking about this lately, and I think it's a pretty interesting topic. Here are some more specific questions:

If you're able to predict the conclusion based on deductions, does it subtract from your experience?  The "based on deductions" part is important, because I'm not asking about mysteries you're able to predict because you've read something similar before. 

On the other hand, if it is virtually impossible to predict the conclusion without having experienced a similar twist before (such as with Ever17), does that subtract from your experience?

EDIT: And if you had to choose, which of the above two would you prefer, assuming that the quality of writing is the same?

Does the mystery have to be solved, or are open endings acceptable?

What do you think of "flags" (e.g. "death flags")?  This is not necessarily the same thing as foreshadowing, since it also includes character progression tropes that you only know about because of past reading experience.  If you're able to find these flags, does it subtract from the experience?

I won't bother asking to compare single-route and multi-route, since that has been discussed at length very recently.  

Edited by PiggiesGoMoo
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12 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

If you're able to predict the conclusion based on deductions, does it subtract from your experience? 

No, not really. The only requirement here that the answer shouldn't be very obvious and should require at least some work to get to.

13 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

On the other hand, if it is virtually impossible to predict the conclusion without having experienced a similar twist before (such as with Ever17), does that subtract from your experience?

By the twist in Ever17 you mean

Spoiler

the nature of Blick Winkel?

Because, I think, all the other twists there are possible to predict, if you read the text very carefully. This one... is also possible, probably, but it requires a serious leap of a logic. And my answer to that question is: no, it doesn't matter. The main important aspect in every mystery to me is that the mystery should make sense. The little details in the story should lead to the revelation, without spoiling it. My personal belief is that the twists in general shouldn't come out of nowhere, but should at least have some connection to the arts of the story that came before them.

I'd like to mention Higurashi as an example. It just happened that I watched the anime before I read the VN, and I didn't even particularly like it at first. So when I actually started to read the VN, because I already knew the main twists, I could actually see all the little hints, that anime decided to skip, throughout the whole story, starting from the very first scene, which ultimately lead to all the big revelations at the end. These hints are numerous, and, in spite of their number, you probably won't be able to guess the main mystery of the story. On the other hand, in the end, they all make perfect sense. I personally like this type of mystery, even though it's rather unpredictable.

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34 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

If you're able to predict the conclusion based on deductions, does it subtract from your experience?  The "based on deductions" part is important, because I'm not asking about mysteries you're able to predict because you've read something similar before. 

Depends, it can subtract since I have the feel that "I already saw that coming" OR it can add since it gives me a sense of self-satisfaction like "YES! MY PREDICTION WAS TRUE!".

36 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

Does the mystery have to be solved, or are open endings acceptable?

Depends if there are enough plot hints and material to theorize on what happened, instead of a "no-end".

37 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

What do you think of "flags" (e.g. "death flags")?  This is not necessarily the same thing as foreshadowing, since it also includes character progression tropes that you only know about because of past reading experience.  If you're able to find these flags, does it subtract from the experience?

Again... depends on whether the character death was useful or if it was just "death for the sake of it/a setup". 

38 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

On the other hand, if it is virtually impossible to predict the conclusion without having experienced a similar twist before (such as with Ever17), does that subtract from your experience?

No, as long as the "similar" doesn't equal the "same" I'm satisfied.

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5 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

By the twist in Ever17 you mean

  Reveal hidden contents

the nature of Blick Winkel?

 

That twist is exactly what I meant in regards to Ever17.  I don't actually believe there are enough hints to allow a person to come to that conclusion without some wildly lucky guesses, because it's just so extraordinary.

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Here's my opinion on the matter:

54 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

If you're able to predict the conclusion based on deductions, does it subtract from your experience?  

No, it actually adds. Of course, the answer shouldn't be painfully obvious, but I seriously dislike too many leaps in logic or impossible to predict bullshit. I'm not saying I have to deduct everything, but if I don't, I want to go "seriously? how did I not noticed that before????".

57 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

Does the mystery have to be solved, or are open endings acceptable?

Not a "must have", but I tend to prefer less open as possible.

58 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

What do you think of "flags" (e.g. "death flags")?  This is not necessarily the same thing as foreshadowing, since it also includes character progression tropes that you only know about because of past reading experience.  If you're able to find these flags, does it subtract from the experience?

Flags are annoying, but I know that's very hard to avoid all of the death flags already made. EVERYTHING can be a death flag nowadays. A loner suddenly make his first friend? He'll die so the loner can angst. Showing a family photo? The guy's gonna die. A character that was the same through the entire novel suddenly got an epiphany? Death death death. In fact, it's more amazing when a "flagged" character does manage to survive. :wahaha:

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14 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

That twist is exactly what I meant in regards to Ever17.  I don't actually believe there are enough hints to allow a person to come to that conclusion without some wildly lucky guesses, because it's just so extraordinary.

I don't think a twist that's impossible to predict is a bad thing by itself. It only annoys me when the game obscures information from the player in overly-obvious ways, like unnaturally cryptic dialogue, that doesn't make any sense without the proper context etc. It irritated me to no end when I first read Sepia Tears - when the drama kicked in, everyone stopped talking with comprehensible sentences, to not spoil the mysteries to the player - how considerate of them. ;p

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4 minutes ago, MaggieROBOT said:

Flags are annoying, but I know that's very hard to avoid all of the death flags already made. EVERYTHING can be a death flag nowadays. A loner suddenly make his first friend? He'll die so the loner can angst. Showing a family photo? The guy's gonna die. A character that was the same through the entire novel suddenly got an epiphany? Death death death. In fact, it's more amazing when a "flagged" character does manage to survive. :wahaha:

Yea I think having at least one "false flag" is a good way to throw off the reader, without doing it ham-handed of course.  If the reader gets something wrong due to their expectation of a trope, they're forced to use hints from the actual story to come to a conclusion rather than trying to "meta" it.

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As far as mystery goes I think it still should have compelling characters and plot.

47 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

If you're able to predict the conclusion based on deductions, does it subtract from your experience?  The "based on deductions" part is important, because I'm not asking about mysteries you're able to predict because you've read something similar before. 

 

I think it's all a matter of how obvious it is. Like, if the game spends most of the time basically telling me who the bad guy is or what the twist is going to be then that is not much of a mystery. Still, if the writing and characters are really well done then I will still probably like it.

56 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

On the other hand, if it is virtually impossible to predict the conclusion without having experienced a similar twist before (such as with Ever17), does that subtract from your experience?

I genuinely do love being surprised by things and I am always appreciative of an author that can take something in a direction that I wasn't expecting. What I don't like are twists that are completely absurd and have literally no foreshadowing at all. Don't give me a twist a la R.L. Stine  (they were robots, dogs, or aliens the entire time) and expect me to just be satisfied with that.

1 hour ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

Does the mystery have to be solved, or are open endings acceptable?

I would be fine with a more open ending as long as I don't feel cheated at the end of it. Conversely, I don't like it when a story spends it's last hour explaining each and every conceivable plot point. So, if the mystery can avoid doing either of those things then I will be happy.

1 hour ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

What do you think of "flags" (e.g. "death flags")?  This is not necessarily the same thing as foreshadowing, since it also includes character progression tropes that you only know about because of past reading experience.  If you're able to find these flags, does it subtract from the experience?

I think a lot of the time they are just unavoidable sometimes, especially if you have prior experience. I'm fine with them as long as they are subtle enough and don't end up looking like this.

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2 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

If you're able to predict the conclusion based on deductions, does it subtract from your experience? 

It would depend on the process that led to finding the answer, if it's easy and obvious then it'd probably subtract from the experience but if instead you find or deduct the answer well into the game due to the hints given and in game events then I don't think it would. Most likely it'd serve as an encouragement for the player to want them to find out themselves instead of following the game being hand held all the way through.

2 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

Does the mystery have to be solved, or are open endings acceptable?

A game doesn't need a 100% conclusion in order to be good or acceptable, plenty of open ended games are high tier experiences. Again it depends on how the road that led to it was and the overall experience that there is to be had.

2 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

What do you think of "flags" (e.g. "death flags")?  This is not necessarily the same thing as foreshadowing, since it also includes character progression tropes that you only know about because of past reading experience.  If you're able to find these flags, does it subtract from the experience?

I personally don't always like when you're able to tell who'll die and who won't from the get go, a bit of shock and surprise factor are always good and it does keep you on your toes.

 

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2 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

 

If you're able to predict the conclusion based on deductions, does it subtract from your experience?  The "based on deductions" part is important, because I'm not asking about mysteries you're able to predict because you've read something similar before. 

 

No, as long as it was not too easy and making sense. I mean I don't like twist that come out of nowhere or story that was very easy to be predicted.

2 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

On the other hand, if it is virtually impossible to predict the conclusion without having experienced a similar twist before (such as with Ever17), does that subtract from your experience?

 

No, as long as the twist explained clearly in the end and the story was enjoyable. Heck, I find remember 11 twist more enjoyable than ever17 twist. I know it was not explained in the end but I still can find the explanation via wiki. So it counts. Still I hate the ending.

 

2 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

EDIT: And if you had to choose, which of the above two would you prefer, assuming that the quality of writing is the same?

 

For me I have no preference, as long as the story was great. But if I have to choose maybe I will choose the second one, simply because I am too lazy to think. I just want to enjoy the story

2 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

Does the mystery have to be solved, or are open endings acceptable?

 

Personally for me, yes. I mean it doesn't have to be clearly explained. But I have to understand the mystery about what's happening (at least via wiki). I have read several mystery visual novel. The story is good but there's no end and I have more question at the end than the beginning (worse, there's no explanation via wiki). So, I give it 6 stars instead of 8 stars. For me, its significant because I don't recommend visual novel with rating below 7.

2 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

What do you think of "flags" (e.g. "death flags")?  This is not necessarily the same thing as foreshadowing, since it also includes character progression tropes that you only know about because of past reading experience.  If you're able to find these flags, does it subtract from the experience?

Well, it could be a little annoying but I think I just have to accept it.

Edited by Acrylic7
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What's most important in my opinion is that there be enough hints that you COULD predict it, so that even if you don't, you can think back to specific moments and go "ohhhhhhhhhh" or even better, go back on a second playthrough and be like "motherFUCKER how did I MISS THAT", I always love that feeling. It's also fun to be right as well, as long as it wasn't blindingly, insultingly obvious while the game tries to play it like a big reveal.

Also, the best mysteries have more than one mystery. Like, JUST a whodunit is boring. It needs to also have questions of like, howdunit, whydunit, whendunit, wheredunit, and/or whatdunit. And characters should be actively investigating, it's way boring if the answer to the mystery just falls into their laps, unless the mystery was a background element.

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1. A sensible mystery with relation to the tone and style of the work.

2. A good atmosphere and good characters. I cannot stress this enough. You need to make me give a shit about a mystery beyond whodunnit/howdunnit.

3. A reasonably good surprising/rewarding solution- that is, the entire mystery doesn't have to be 100% solvable but the clues you're given should leave you some room to wiggle around in.

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You should really read Umineko no Naku Koro Ni. If you've had already, play it again. The second time was the best for me, as I could notice many hints that were, to me, not relevant. And there were LOTS of hints hidden in the game, some pretty obvious, but I think not only me but many have not noticed them as they were very deceiving, in a good way.

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