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IS there interest for a +18 otome game?


milkteebaby

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So, just kind of piggy-backing (is that the right term?) off my previous thread, re: finding good +18 otome with good artwork...

Is there a genuine interest for +18 otome games, with good art style and heavy, plotwise? 

I'm just going to come out and admit that yes, I AM working on an +18 otome game, but I'm only familiar with the Asian market and while otome games are a niche market, the +18 otome games are a niche within a niche, making me worry that I might be producing a product that ultimately will not have an audience in a English speaking market. 

So TLDR; would you play/buy an otome game with +18 elements? 

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4 minutes ago, solidbatman said:

In my experience talking to otome fans, absolutely there is a market. Everyone likes some good smut to an extent 

Thanks for the reply. Yes, in my experience, it DOES seem like there would be a market. There's fans like me who started otome games such as Hiiro no Kakera over ten years ago and now that we're older, surely we want older/more mature protagonists/more mature situations, right?

My concern is that making a game potentially +18...it would cut down on the # of consumers, wouldn't it? Is it better to design a game with 2 modes, all ages and +18? (although, that sounds like so much work...)

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I think as long as the scenes were handled in a mature and realistic way and were well written (which almost 90% of eroges fail at) then it would be fine.

You could go the route with many adult games that wind up on steam and make a adult patch that they could use later.

Edited by Ranzo
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From a sales perspective, I think it would be just fine. I get the impression that otome games are either without 18+ contents or with rape. Making one with 18+ contents, but without rape would put it in a niche where the competition is fairly low. It doesn't matter if the market is small if you dominate it.

 

Another thing to consider is if the writing will allow it to be enjoyable for both genders. I tried an otome game ages ago because I got curious and I actually liked it at first. However at some point it turned into an otome game where it was about picking one of the three men. Being somewhat like a dating sim with the genders reversed and since I have no romantic interest in men, I dropped it. However reading a VN with a protagonist as the opposite gender could still be interesting. It just requires writing where attractiveness to men isn't a motivating factor.

 

A H scene, which is written from the perspective of the girl could be interesting. It certainly is rare and I'm only aware of one such scene. As for graphics for such H scenes it would likely be a good idea to include both people. It's not uncommon to only include the girl in VNs with male protagonists, but once again if it should be readable by males, adding a nude male as the main attraction is not the way to go.

 

1 hour ago, milkteebaby said:

My concern is that making a game potentially +18...it would cut down on the # of consumers, wouldn't it? Is it better to design a game with 2 modes, all ages and +18? (although, that sounds like so much work...)

The biggest problem I see in using two modes is that H scenes becomes an addon. It loses the ability to contain development in plot/character/relationship and because of that becomes sort of meaningless. A well written H scene will touch all those three, which will then make the text meaningful and not just "add random line here" over and over. One setup I have seen more than once is finally home alone, then get busy and mid act the couple ends up no longer being alone. It is not only a way to add some comedy, it also announces the relationship to somebody else, which can be used in the overall story. Usually the story is a tool to end up with H scenes. However if a H scene is a tool to progress with the story, it will get rid of the meaningless addon feeling most such scenes suffers from.

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1 hour ago, tymmur said:

 

A H scene, which is written from the perspective of the girl could be interesting. It certainly is rare and I'm only aware of one such scene. As for graphics for such H scenes it would likely be a good idea to include both people. It's not uncommon to only include the girl in VNs with male protagonists, but once again if it should be readable by males, adding a nude male as the main attraction is not the way to go.

I can think of 3 H scenes in individual visual novel from girl perspectives

Fashioning Little Miss Lonesome is an 18+ otome where all the H scenes are from female perspective.

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20 minutes ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

Fashioning Little Miss Lonesome is an 18+ otome where all the H scenes are from female perspective.

Got to be honest, calling FLML an "otome" game kind of offends my "delicate" sensibilities.. I'm not even sure the script was written by a woman. The story kind of reads like a romance written by a guy (and I've read a great deal of those in the past) and the H scenes seem super gratuitous. Like, are they necessary for the plot advancement? In addition, the H scenes weren't really what I'd call the female perspective, they're just kind of...there? Like a movie still. If they were from her perspective, she wouldn't be in the picture. I'm currently playing FLML right now and, honestly, aside from the absolutely hilarious script, there's not a whole lot for me to like about this particular game. 

edit (to make this post relevant to the main topic): What would draw people to an +18 otome game? Is it the H? The storyline? The art? What would draw YOU to an +18 otome game? 

Me personally, it would be #1, the story and #2, the art. 

 

10 minutes ago, novurdim said:

Considering that Miss Lonesome is one of MG's best-sellers, is there really a point to this discussion?

Yes, but WHY is it a bestseller? Is it a best seller because of the story? The art? The script? (my money's on the script) Is it a best seller because it's one of only 3 otome games being sold on mangagamer and there's not a whole lot of hi-quality Japanese otome games available for the Western game?

Edited by milkteebaby
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Yeah, I instantly bought FLML and asked for Kami-sama Nante Yondenai! to get localized on MG's survey.  I'm actually pretty interested in 18+ otome in general, since I haven't seen that many titles in English that fit into that category.  Female narrators are rather refreshing after the endless parade of male protags.

7 minutes ago, milkteebaby said:

In addition, the H scenes weren't really what I'd call the female perspective, they're just kind of...there? Like a movie still. If they were from her perspective, she wouldn't be in the picture.

I'm not too sure how you came to that conclusion.  As long as the woman is narrating the events happening in the story, it's from her perspective.  There's plenty of CGs, ero or no, that show male protagonists' bodies, just usually not their faces, so I don't think that really disqualifies FLML.  Most h-scenes that I've seen actually aren't in the protag's POV (looking out of his eyes, that is), but I haven't read that many VNs, so I guess it's not really a fair sample size.

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well the lack of 18+ otome was obviously because of the constant social stigma in many countries how it's not alright for a woman to be public about her sexuality desires. 

I can understand you not being into the H scenes since ive heard similar complaints from others and I'm sure the H scenes were written in a way to get male readers who are usually into the eroge writing see how it's implemented into an otome

That said I have seen some girls who are fine with or like the writing of them

But yeah Im sure the lack of H Otome is part of why it sold well and I bet MangaGamer sold it as a way to generate interest even if it was a short otome 18+ that had typical eroge dialogue

Given how well it sold it does seem like MangaGamer may attempt to actually try another in the future.

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11 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

Yeah, I instantly bought FLML and asked for Kami-sama Nante Yondenai! to get localized on MG's survey.  I'm actually pretty interested in 18+ otome in general, since I haven't seen that many titles in English that fit into that category.  Female narrators are rather refreshing after the endless parade of male protags.

I'm not too sure how you came to that conclusion.  As long as the woman is narrating the events happening in the story, it's from her perspective. 

Sorry, I misunderstood your point and I apologize for that. I was thinking about the hentai/ero manga where it's so obvious in the male protagonist's POV :P

 

7 minutes ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

well the lack of 18+ otome was obviously because of the constant social stigma in many countries how it's not alright for a woman to be public about her sexuality desires.

And yet, isn't it funny how romance, as a book category, is regularly one of the most popular (if not THE most) genre to be sold? 

Or at least, that's how it is in America.

So, actually, I can see the point you're making. VNs and otome games are still very new in America, while not so in JP (where romance as a genre is certainly more watered down compared to the spicy prose being dished out by Western authors). 

I'm not sure if my point is coming across, though. I'm not sure if it's the social stigma, necessarily, although that certainly might be the case in JP where there's still a great deal of gender disparity. 

(oh my god, I think I'm losing track of my conversation here) 

But I don't think there's a lack of +18 otome games in JP, at least not that I know of. I think it's just the lack of +18 otome games that are available to the Western audience that I worry about. There hasn't been a market for them...or is there? Judging from this thread, I think there is a market, so I'll continue forging ahead. 

(got to say though, writing a game is so hard/different compared to novels, eeesh) 

Edited by milkteebaby
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52 minutes ago, milkteebaby said:

Yes, but WHY is it a bestseller? Is it a best seller because of the story? The art? The script? (my money's on the script) Is it a best seller because it's one of only 3 otome games being sold on mangagamer and there's not a whole lot of hi-quality Japanese otome games available for the Western game?

As always, it's all of the above, including the fact that sometimes people want porn is their otome too. There's enough all-ages otome in the west but nearly not enough 18+. All the same rules apply to the 18+ otome as to the other niches, people definitely don't shy away from it, so if handled correctly, you'll see more than enough interest.

But, again as always, it won't sell just because it's a 18+ otome. Just as it won't sell only because of "the script", good translations generally sell worse if anything :vinty:

You are exercising in sophistry in this topic, though if it seems like a fun discussion then I don't have any right to impose.

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15 minutes ago, novurdim said:

 

You are exercising in sophistry in this topic, though if it seems like a fun discussion then I don't have any right to impose.

I'm really not. I do genuinely want other people's opinion on this. When I was referring to why FMLM was so popular, I was drawing on the # of reviews I've read and in all of them, the plot and art were not as lauded as much as the script. If it were not for the script, this game would be depressingly pedestrian. 

So what do the otome players in the Western world want? That's what I want to know. That's why I have asked. So yes, I do feel like this discussion is necessary. I'm sorry you feel otherwise. 

To say that FMLM is 3rd on Mangagamer, therefore +18 otome games must be popular is a little short-minded. There's not enough data to support this claim. 

EDIT: I just want to say that I'm not trying to anger anyone or step on any toes. If I've offended anyone, then I most sincerely apologize. All I want answered are these two questions: 1. will +18 otome games sell and 2. what elements would you want to see in such a game?

Edited by milkteebaby
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2 hours ago, milkteebaby said:

When I was referring to why FMLM was so popular, I was drawing on the # of reviews I've read and in all of them, the plot and art were not as lauded as much as the script. If it were not for the script, this game would be depressingly pedestrian. 

There're very few reviews, you can count those as a vocal minority. People often bash bad translation in the reviews which doesn't stop badly translated titles from selling great. Script is very important in the long-term for the image of the game and your company, but it doesn't really affect your immediate sales all that much from what I've seen.

2 hours ago, milkteebaby said:

So what do the otome players in the Western world want? That's what I want to know.

More otomes with good story and art :'D

I'm not irked by the discussion of the details, I just wanted to point out that there's quite obviously an interest in the 18+ otome so the starting point of the topic is misfiring a bit.

2 hours ago, milkteebaby said:

To say that FMLM is 3rd on Mangagamer, therefore +18 otome games must be popular is a little short-minded

I was talking about the last year's sales overview not the current placement. It consistently sold great on both steam and MG's site, and ended up, iirc, the best-selling "new release" of the 2017 if we don't count Higurashi chapters. Remembering how there was much excitement in the crowd even about the sole fact of it being MG's first 18+ otome, I believe it's more than safe to say that there's a market for this stuff. If the game fails, blame only the quality of the game and its marketing.

2 hours ago, milkteebaby said:

EDIT: I just want to say that I'm not trying to anger anyone or step on any toes. If I've offended anyone, then I most sincerely apologize.

No, no, everything is fine. I was too aggressive.

Edited by novurdim
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6 hours ago, tymmur said:

A H scene, which is written from the perspective of the girl could be interesting. It certainly is rare and I'm only aware of one such scene.

There's only a thousand of those in yuri VNs. ;)

5 hours ago, milkteebaby said:

Got to be honest, calling FLML an "otome" game kind of offends my "delicate" sensibilities.. I'm not even sure the script was written by a woman. The story kind of reads like a romance written by a guy (and I've read a great deal of those in the past)

Aren't most JP otome written by guys? They sure feel that way. In general though, I think there definitely is a market, especially if you make it clear that you don't follow typical (misogynist) porn tropes that many female (and some male) readers are absolutely sick of. Including erotic content is also a way to stand out in the western otome market and that is always a plus, while it might not be obvious, otome is really a major part of the OELVN scene and there's a lot of competition within it.

I would still be all for making both an "all-ages" (that is 15+ or 17+) version and fully explicit one. If done well, it doesn't have to harm the story and will give you access to more storefronts and make your game available to those less comfortable with hentai. More choice for the consumer is always better, especially when you're not making a game that is pure smut and would be ruined by toning the sexual content down in some ways.

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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Also, isn't the fact that there aren't many 18+ otomie games out there all the more reason to make one? (At least in English)

Don't the best market leaders provide a product or a service that is currently underused or not in existence?

What better way of standing out against the tide of visual novels that are out there. Especially if it's a VN of great quality.

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12 hours ago, milkteebaby said:

Thanks for the reply. Yes, in my experience, it DOES seem like there would be a market. There's fans like me who started otome games such as Hiiro no Kakera over ten years ago and now that we're older, surely we want older/more mature protagonists/more mature situations, right?

My concern is that making a game potentially +18...it would cut down on the # of consumers, wouldn't it? Is it better to design a game with 2 modes, all ages and +18? (although, that sounds like so much work...)

I would focus more on telling the story you want to tell. If that story involves 18+ and it thematically makes sense, go for it. You don't want to shoehorn in 18+ just to have it. 

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13 hours ago, milkteebaby said:

Is there a genuine interest for +18 otome games, with good art style and heavy, plotwise? 

This actually interest me greatly. And it's just as solidbatman said above, if you write the 18+ parts with care and to serve the plot, not simply shoehorning it in, by all means, do it!

But if you want to do a story also fully revolving around the 18+ parts, that's okay for me too! :maple:

5 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Aren't most JP otome written by guys? They sure feel that way.

Sometimes I have that feeling too. It would be cool to have more "by girls, for girls" VNs, without "trying to appeal to male readers too to sell more". There's some OELVNs that do a good job with this, and I'm thankful for that. Of course, I like those JP Otomes too, but something different once a while is surely refreshing.

And, as the good and pure horny girl I am, I only ask to make the nude guys fully visible, it's only half the fun only showing the girl. K, thanks, bye!

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50 minutes ago, MaggieROBOT said:

This actually interest me greatly. And it's just as solidbatman said above, if you write the 18+ parts with care and to serve the plot, not simply shoehorning it in, by all means, do it!

But if you want to do a story also fully revolving around the 18+ parts, that's okay for me too! :maple:

Sometimes I have that feeling too. It would be cool to have more "by girls, for girls" VNs, without "trying to appeal to male readers too to sell more". There's some OELVNs that do a good job with this, and I'm thankful for that. Of course, I like those JP Otomes too, but something different once a while is surely refreshing.

And, as the good and pure horny girl I am, I only ask to make the nude guys fully visible, it's only half the fun only showing the girl. K, thanks, bye!

Yeah I think in even regular eroges it would be good to see the guys visibly instead of a disembodied husk or some faceless horror.

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14 hours ago, tymmur said:

A H scene, which is written from the perspective of the girl could be interesting. It certainly is rare and I'm only aware of one such scene.

8 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

There's only a thousand of those in yuri VNs. ;)

Somehow that totally fails to provide any insights into what goes on in the mind of a woman when she is together with a man. I prefer to have an idea of what people around me are thinking as it helps avoid conflicts initiated by misunderstandings due to ignorance. To me the greatest appeal of an otome game would be as a tool to unlock the great mysteries of the mind of the opposite gender. Yes I am aware that women are individuals, but giving in to that is the same as not even trying.

2 hours ago, MaggieROBOT said:

And, as the good and pure horny girl I am, I only ask to make the nude guys fully visible, it's only half the fun only showing the girl. K, thanks, bye!

That's pretty much why I said if a VN should have a chance of appealing to both genders, it should contain both genders in the HCGs.

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37 minutes ago, tymmur said:

Somehow that totally fails to provide any insights into what goes on in the mind of a woman when she is together with a man. I prefer to have an idea of what people around me are thinking as it helps avoid conflicts initiated by misunderstandings due to ignorance. To me the greatest appeal of an otome game would be as a tool to unlock the great mysteries of the mind of the opposite gender. Yes I am aware that women are individuals, but giving in to that is the same as not even trying.

I wouldn't completely agree with this. While definitely it's not the same thing, a decent amount of western yuri is written by women, often LGBT ones, so while their perspective might be a bit different from straight women in heterosexual relationships, I'm not sure if it's that different... In general, it seems to me that OELVN market has a lot more female creators and if you want some insights into woman's mind, you're probably more likely to find them there than in Japanese media. :)

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