Discussion About Forced Route Order

[Guest]

What are your opinions on Enforced Playing Order? Do you like/Dislike it? 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Guest

[VirginSmasher]

Well, Dies Irae and Himawari have an enforced playing order and those are 2 of my favourite VNs, so I can get on board with it as long as there are reasons, like if it would improve the mystery in a VN.

[Dreamysyu]

In some cases it works really well. Sometimes you need some kind of order to the routes to bring the idea you want. Fate, for example, uses it very well. On the other hand, if there isn't any reason for it in the plot, then I don't see why it's needed.

[NowItsAngeTime]

Don't care either way since I usually read all routes anyway.

[Dergonu]

I hate it. Let me choose the heroine I want, grrrr! 

I have never dropped a VN because of it though, but I have installed 100% save files to get around it several times. (It's a good trick if the enforced playing order rubs you the wrong way.) 

[tahu157]

I want to say I'd rather choose my own order, but then I also agonize over what the best order is. Like, does one route spoil another? Is there a true ending to the vn that should go last for the best finality? Having an enforced order keeps me from driving myself crazy.

[finiteHP]

If there are plot reasons then it is fine, but I don’t like being force to play routes that I don’t want to.  That being said, there are only a few things that will make me want to avoid a route.

[wyldstrykr]

i dont mind.. there has to be a reason why there is a forced route isnt it???

[Nandemonai]

Sometimes games don't enforce the reading order they probably should.  I think that one of Root Double's biggest problems, for instance, is that the game lets you do either Route A or Route B first.  The game would have been much tighter plotted if Routes A and B had been merged into a dual protagonist single route.  Route B drags too much, and playing Route B first spoils the stronger route - route A.  They're not even seperate stories anyway - they're two different viewpoints of the same story.

Then there's Tokyo Babel.  Check out the walkthrough - the 'recommended route order' basically should have been mandatory.  The game does lock Lilith's route for last, but Raziel and Sorami's routes should also have been locked because too much in Sorami's route assumes you've read Raziel's (both in terms of making no sense without having done so, and cross-route spoilers).

On the other hand, to play Tina's route in SakuSaku, I'd have to play Ann's.  I am ... not impressed with Ann's character.  At all.

[VirginSmasher]

3 hours ago, Nandemonai said:

Sometimes games don't enforce the reading order they probably should.  I think that one of Root Double's biggest problems, for instance, is that the game lets you do either Route A or Route B first.  The game would have been much tighter plotted if Routes A and B had been merged into a dual protagonist single route.  Route B drags too much, and playing Route B first spoils the stronger route - route A.  They're not even seperate stories anyway - they're two different viewpoints of the same story.

Then there's Tokyo Babel.  Check out the walkthrough - the 'recommended route order' basically should have been mandatory.  The game does lock Lilith's route for last, but Raziel and Sorami's routes should also have been locked because too much in Sorami's route assumes you've read Raziel's (both in terms of making no sense without having done so, and cross-route spoilers).

I felt the same way about Root Double. No idea why they didn't lock the route order for that VN.

[Overlord87]

I dislike any enforced reading order, but I don't think I'd drop a VN just for that. Sometimes it really is baffling though (like KoiChoco).

[Clephas]

One of the primary reasons for locking a route or enforcing a route order is to prevent premature information releases/spoilers.   If you know what happens in Vendetta's route in Silverio Vendetta, then it becomes harder to enjoy Millie's route, because everything they only hint at in Millie's route comes into the open in Vendetta's.  This is the case about 90% of the time with chuunige, lol.

Other times are when there is literally a chronological order

Spoiler

like Dies Irae.

In this case, whether because of a time loop or some other element, the routes literally occur in order and shouldn't be read out of order. 

Last of all, there are 'central heroine' routes, which are locked until you have completed one or more of the other heroines' routes... these can have some kind of meaning, but with charage, more often than not, they do it simply to make it clear that 'this is the main heroine'.  I don't like this type, to be honest...  When there is no logical reason for the central heroine's route to be locked, I don't want it to be locked, lol.

[Yoxall]

I occasionally like playing plot-focused vns with enforced playing order when done well and efficient like Rewrite and Dies irae. However, there are times when a scenario writer doesn't use it as efficiently as they should like in Fortissimo. Now I love Fortissimo as my dose of chuuni, but some of Kamiya Suguru's 'decisions' on how to go about playing both entries in the franchise kinda has me going 'why' at times. Here is one thing that bug me about some of these EPO narratives (or maybe this issue is just within the Fortissimo franchise; haven't read too many of these to tell).

Spoiler

*Minor rant warning incoming*

I'll just use Fortissimo's entries as prime examples considering how much time I put into playing and reading them:

In Fortissimo EXS/FA, there are three routes. One is from the older version, EXA, and the other two are new. For those unaware, there is a specific playing order to Fortissimo in order to 100% everything and get the bonus epilogue. Speaking from my experience after reading FA, this requires you to play the two new routes first to get the bad ending, go finish the old route, and then back to 'rereading' the two new routes again just to get the good ending this time around. The way Kamiya does this is pretty much a time waster and spoils the two new routes as I'm sure everyone would aim for the old one first before heading to the two new ones. You essentially have to reread some of the common route stuff multiple times to get everything just for one epilogue that leads into its sequel. Maybe you can save/load at a certain point in the common route, but my point about rereading the same thing two or more times still stands.

tl;dr Fortissimo exemplifies the worst kind of EPO which is forcing you to read the same route twice to unlock both endings (one before playing another route and the other after all that).

Kadenz fermata kinda tones it down a bit by making it easier for us to jump to any scene we want and the first playthrough is basically all Reiji and Freya's scenes which is vague in the grand scheme of things. Still kinda spoils some major stuff in your second playthrough, but at least they give us the option to skip all the scenes we saw the first time around.

 

[HMN]

50 minutes ago, Yoxall said:

I occasionally like playing plot-focused vns with enforced playing order when done well and efficient like Rewrite and Dies irae. However, there are times when a scenario writer doesn't use it as efficiently as they should like in Fortissimo. Now I love Fortissimo as my dose of chuuni, but some of Kamiya Suguru's 'decisions' on how to go about playing both entries in the franchise kinda has me going 'why' at times. Here is one thing that bug me about some of these EPO narratives (or maybe this issue is just within the Fortissimo franchise; haven't read too many of these to tell).

  Hide contents

*Minor rant warning incoming*

I'll just use Fortissimo's entries as prime examples considering how much time I put into playing and reading them:

In Fortissimo EXS/FA, there are three routes. One is from the older version, EXA, and the other two are new. For those unaware, there is a specific playing order to Fortissimo in order to 100% everything and get the bonus epilogue. Speaking from my experience after reading FA, this requires you to play the two new routes first to get the bad ending, go finish the old route, and then back to 'rereading' the two new routes again just to get the good ending this time around. The way Kamiya does this is pretty much a time waster and spoils the two new routes as I'm sure everyone would aim for the old one first before heading to the two new ones. You essentially have to reread some of the common route stuff multiple times to get everything just for one epilogue that leads into its sequel. Maybe you can save/load at a certain point in the common route, but my point about rereading the same thing two or more times still stands.

tl;dr Fortissimo exemplifies the worst kind of EPO which is forcing you to read the same route twice to unlock both endings (one before playing another route and the other after all that).

Kadenz fermata kinda tones it down a bit by making it easier for us to jump to any scene we want and the first playthrough is basically all Reiji and Freya's scenes which is vague in the grand scheme of things. Still kinda spoils some major stuff in your second playthrough, but at least they give us the option to skip all the scenes we saw the first time around.

 

Mfw I just downloaded a save file after completing the three main endings to see that extra scene because getting all the other ones was a hassle w

[VirginSmasher]

2 minutes ago, HMN said:

Mfw I just downloaded a save file after completing the three main endings to see that extra scene because getting all the other ones was a hassle w

Wow. I can't believe you'd cheat a VN like that. Shame on you. 

[HMN]

8 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said:

Wow. I can't believe you'd cheat a VN like that. Shame on you. 

Stop shaming me.

I'm not reading Miki's, Ichigo's, and Ayane's mini-routes (can we even consider them as that? they're probably just a couple of scenes where they act lovely-dovey then have an H-scene, but I don't know) just to get that extra scene, man.

Edited March 16, 2018 by HMN

[VirginSmasher]

16 minutes ago, HMN said:

Stop shaming me.

I'm not reading Miki's, Ichigo's, and Ayane's mini-routes (can we even consider them as that? they're probably just a couple of scenes where they act lovely-dovey then have an H-scene, but I don't know) just to get that extra scene, man.

Oh.

Never mind. I excuse you for skipping moege-like scenes.

[Yoxall]

1 hour ago, HMN said:

Stop shaming me.

I'm not reading Miki's, Ichigo's, and Ayane's mini-routes (can we even consider them as that? they're probably just a couple of scenes where they act lovely-dovey then have an H-scene, but I don't know) just to get that extra scene, man.

Ahaha gotta agree with you on that. May as well just vaguely tell you what you missed out. Imo, the epilogue scene wasn't worth all the trouble either if one wasn't planning on reading Kadenz. 

Spoiler

Miki is basically a shared(?) ending with Sakura's, Ichigo is as you said a two to three extra scenes, and Ayane's is basically an ending you don't want to get into.  There was also the Ryuichi scenes too (not in that manner mind you).

Least Kadenz was easier to get by.

 

[HMN]

27 minutes ago, Yoxall said:

Ahaha gotta agree with you on that. May as well just vaguely tell you what you missed out. Imo, the epilogue scene wasn't worth all the trouble either if one wasn't planning on reading Kadenz. 

  Hide contents

Miki is basically a shared(?) ending with Sakura's, Ichigo is as you said a two to three extra scenes, and Ayane's is basically an ending you don't want to get into.  There was also the Ryuichi scenes too (not in that manner mind you).

Least Kadenz was easier to get by.

 

I couldn't wait to read kadenz at the time, haha.

Spoiler

Actually interested in how things go in Ayane's route. Considering how much I enjoyed fortissimo, I can see myself going back and reading it again, but that's not going to happen anytime soon... Does Ayane go full yandere on me or something?

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by HMN

[Yoxall]

1 hour ago, HMN said:

I couldn't wait to read kadenz at the time, haha.

  Hide contents

Actually interested in how things go in Ayane's route. Considering how much I enjoyed fortissimo, I can see myself going back and reading it again, but that's not going to happen anytime soon... Does Ayane go full yandere on me or something?

 

To a certain extent.

Spoiler

Let's just say she takes things into her own hands as the dominating partner once you help her out a bit too much for your own good. 

 

[HMN]

12 minutes ago, Yoxall said:

To a certain extent.

  Hide contents

Let's just say she takes things into her own hands as the dominating partner once you help her out a bit too much for your own good. 

 

 

Spoiler

pls don't abuse 無に還った少女 against me

 

 

[VirginSmasher]

20 minutes ago, Yoxall said:

To a certain extent.

  Reveal hidden contents

Let's just say she takes things into her own hands as the dominating partner once you help her out a bit too much for your own good. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, HMN said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

pls don't abuse 無に還った少女 against me

 

 

This thread turned into a Fortissimo spoiler discussion pretty quickly. 

[HMN]

Just now, VirginSmasher said:

 

This thread turned into a Fortissimo spoiler discussion pretty quickly. 

worry not, nekonyan's TRANSLATION PROJECT of fortissimo is coming soon

[VirginSmasher]

1 minute ago, HMN said:

worry not, nekonyan's TRANSLATION PROJECT of fortissimo is coming soon

And here I thought that was a meme by Asonn. 

[littleshogun]

For Koichoco thing, I believe that it was the most infamous forced route order that we have here. For the reason of why we have that (Must play Chisato's route first before played all other route), I believe that maybe even the writer didn't believe Chisato's route was good enough and afraid that the player may skip the route altogether if it's played later, so he decided to locked Chisato's route to be only available route at the start. Or perhaps maybe even the writer here dislike Chisato considering that she was basically have some bad reputation in other routes, so maybe this is intentional that the writer want the reader to dislike Chisato as well - at least it should be good interpretation if you hate Chisato.

Back to topic, so I'm basically neutral against forced route orders, and if there's anything uncomfortable maybe I'll just try to endure the route that I disliked. Besides I mostly using the walkthrough to play the VNs anyway.

Edited March 17, 2018 by littleshogun