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Thoughts on vn's with gameplay?


mitchhamilton

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39 minutes ago, solidbatman said:

I've honestly never tried one. Got any suggestions?

Rance 6 is pretty good, IMO.  It's a turn-based dungeon crawler RPG that's not extremely difficult, at least until post-game content.  It's fairly grindy, but I'm not sure how it compares to Yumina or Kamidori in grinding requirements, since I haven't played either of them.

I found it to be a pretty good intro to gameplay VNs, since it plays like a classic 90s RPG, and I'm fairly used to that style.  If you don't like Rance, though, you'll probably hate it.

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As I said in the thread Lesiak linked, I love RPG mechanics (the more the merrier) and hate minigames like "click in as many icons as you can before the time runs out to save the world" mobile shovelware like to pull. In fact, I bought Tears to Tiara 2 because of the RPG parts and in the end it was the only part that I liked lol

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Not too fond of them. Generally gameplay mechanics in VNs are limited to some mini games or the ability to move freely around the map, like in Danganronpa... and I personally don't find that all that exciting, and often can even get tedious, when you are eager to continue with the main story and a wild minigame suddenly appears.

I've always considered VNs to combine the worlds of literature and anime, rather than videogames, as gameplay mechanics tend to be marginal and in my humble opinion that's how it should be.

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29 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Generally gameplay mechanics in VNs are limited to some mini games or the ability to move freely around the map

Oh, yeah, I remember one older VN I read where you could walk around the map. It was really pointless, and I had a feeling that the only reason why that existed is because somebody thought that "a game ought to have some gameplay, even if it's boring and pointless". On the other hand, I know that the gameplay elements in a lot of other VNs are way more complex. Like, there are hybrids of VNs with RPG or strategy, and, from what I understand, these elements are the part of the process, not just minigames. (Am I wrong?) I wouldn't mind trying these at some point, but it's definitely not what I want to do in the near future.

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9 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

Oh, yeah, I remember one older VN I read where you could walk around the map. It was really pointless, and I had a feeling that the only reason why that existed is because somebody thought that "a game ought to have some gameplay, even if it's boring and pointless". On the other hand, I know that the gameplay elements in a lot of other VNs are way more complex. Like, there are hybrids of VNs with RPG or strategy, and, from what I understand, these elements are the part of the process, not just minigames. (Am I wrong?) I wouldn't mind trying these at some point, but it's definitely not what I want to do in the near future.

I think it's kind of a continuum between VNs and videogames, where VNs with pointless gameplay mechanics fall nearer the former and those with interesting mechanics integral to the VN experience fall nearer the latter. But, the way I see it, VNs with good game mechanics are just videogames :wahaha:

Edited by Thyndd
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Just now, Dreamysyu said:

Be careful, you are may accidentally start another play vs. read argument. :maple:

Oh, that's not my intention at all. I don't mean it like "videogames are just VNs + good gameplay" or "VNs are videogames with poor gameplay value".

You always have to give up on something. If you make the gameplay part central, the story, though it might still be really good, will be inevitably more periferical and diluted from the narrative point of view. 

I prefer it VN style myself, as you can deduce from my presence here :sachi:

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1 hour ago, Thyndd said:

If you make the gameplay part central, the story, though it might still be really good, will be inevitably more periferical and diluted from the narrative point of view. 

I can't say I completely agree with this statement. From what I know, the golden rule of story-based computer games is to design the gameplay and the story in such a way so they would be basically indistinguishable. And I personally love when games master that. On the other hand, I'm not sure how well it applies to VN's. Well, there's obviously that  VN I won't spoil the name of, but it would be pretty fun is some hybrid VN manages to do that. I'd read... khm, play it.

Edited by Dreamysyu
posting at night is bad for grammar...
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I like gameplay if it integrates with the story in some way, rather than feeling tacked on. So far I haven't had any horrible experiences with VNs with gameplay yet (standouts are Ace Attorney, Analogue, the weird minigame in F H/A)

The only one I found annoying was 999 on the DS, but that's mostly cause repeating the same rooms due to only having one save slot got tedious :( 

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Baldr Sky and Baldr Sky Zero both succeeded in almost perfectly integrating the gameplay with the story, so that is pretty much the gameplay hybrid ideal.  However, most hybrids fail by this standard, because the story gets told in a fragmentary manner and the gameplay is generally half-assed.  Baldr Bringer, in opposition to its predecessors, is a precise illustration of what can go wrong when hybridization fails massively on all levels.  It is boring, it misses the core audience, and the gameplay is actually slower paced and not as enjoyable as previous entries. 

SofthouseChara's Ryouchi Kizoku is another perfect example of a game where the gameplay renders story weak to nonexistent... because of the inherent time limit and the opaqueness of the conditions by which the game is considered 'complete', it is impossible to ever really feel like you are involved in the story, despite hints at what might have been an attempt to make the whole thing coherent.

Ikusa Megami Zero succeeds in integrating the story and gameplay nicely, in the more classic sense (because it is essentially hybridized with a classic console-style jrpg format).

The worst example of gameplay 'integration' I've seen has been 'keyword' systems in mystery VNs.  Every single game that uses a system like this is a horrible read, because you are constantly being distracted from the story by the need to click on keywords to store in your protagonist's memory for later use.  Since I don't believe player agency is an excuse for breaking my engrossment in the story, this kind of thing is shit.

 

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41 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

I can't say I completely agree with this statement. From what I know, the golden rule of a story-based computer game is to design the gameplay and the story in such a way so they would be basically indistinguishable. And I personally when games that master that. On the other hand, I'm not sure how well it applies to VN's. Well, there's obviously that  VN I won't spoil the name of, but it would be pretty fun is some hybrid VN manages to do that. I'd read... khm, play it.

I think I get your point, though I think I couldn't name off the top of my head any videogame that, through its gameplay, manages to tell a complex story in all the narrative depth that a more literary approach such as novels or VNs allow. Though admittedly I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the videogames topic, so that may be perfectly it.

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2 hours ago, Dreamysyu said:

I can't say I completely agree with this statement. From what I know, the golden rule of story-based computer games is to design the gameplay and the story in such a way so they would be basically indistinguishable. And I personally love when games master that. On the other hand, I'm not sure how well it applies to VN's. Well, there's obviously that  VN I won't spoil the name of, but it would be pretty fun is some hybrid VN manages to do that. I'd read... khm, play it.

I hate Myst and Riven, and that is what you just described... at my very limit, I can accept Eternal Darkness (because Eternal Darkness was just so good it transcended its shitty puzzle-solving roots), but gameplay and storytelling being completely indistinguishable is rarely a good thing, in my experience.  While using gameplay to tell part of the story in a VN is actually a good idea (though rarely applied skillfully)... and that is what role-playing games do, by definition (which is probably why rpg-variants are the most common hybridization gameplay type).  When gameplay stops being an aid to telling the story and becomes the point of playing, the hybrid starts to suck. 

Needless to say, I hate dating-sims.

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I can tolerate investigation game play mechanics.

I think Higurashi, Phoenix Wright, and Kara no Shoujo are ideal examples of this in motion.

PW is the heaviest in gameplay of all, but it works because I like thinking through the story. I love the interactivity; I just don't like pointless puzzles, like they have serve some narrative purpose.

Kara no Shoujo is interesting because all you do is pick evidence/suspects, go to locations, and investigate crime scenes. That's it. Those things determine your route. Just today, I was missing a certain item from investigating and therefore was locked into a bad ending. I am not going to lie, that's some good game design. Far FAR better than Ever17, but I can see how it annoys people. If that were to happen in a Ace Attorney game, there will be riots in that fandom.

The higruashi VN series has the least amount gameplay because it's mainly absent until you get to matsuribayashi-hen, where you use everything you learned from the previous seven kinetic novels to solve the mystery. I loved it when I was 16. It was easily my favorite gameplay section, because it made me think.

So it depends on the genre, if I am reading a drama or an action/adventure like F/SN. I don't expect any gameplay other than dialogue choices but that's assumed by default.

Same goes for romance-centered VNs. DDLC is good example, the poetry creator minigame does just that. It's simple and it's tied to the narrative.

TL;DR. The gameplay must be central to the narrative, if the player can move along in the story without said gameplay you know it shouldn't be there. :chaika:

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I prefer Visual Novel as Visual Novel and RPG as RPG. Personally I think combining both of them won't satisfy both fans. Mini game is okay though.

I supposed there's special case like Persona. But I think that's because Persona is more RPG first and visual novel second.

Edited by Acrylic7
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I've only managed to finish one VN-with-gameplay title (Kamidori) but I played it more as 'RPG with VN elements' rather than 'VN with gameplay'.

Although to be fair, I enjoyed it since the gameplay made sense in the setting of Kamidori (collecting mats, story based missions + lots of extra character content)

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I think that it's fine as long as the gameplay is so compelling/enjoyable that it doesn't make the VN worse for it.

That's a pretty high bar to set, however, and I would say most VNs would be better off if they cut their gameplay mechanisms out.

It's better to do one thing extremely well, rather than do many things just okay.

Edited by arosia
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In the past I've played a lot of rpgs and adventure games like Monkey Island which link a well written story to a compelling gameplay. But honestly now I can't be bothered to play games that require grinding or lots of trial and error (or, err, walkthrough-browsing) in puzzles. I just want to enjoy the story.
Something like Ace Attorney is the most "gameplay-driven" I can handle now, because it's usually very well integrated into the storytelling. I've had issues with Danganronpa though, it kinda broke the rythm in trials for me.
Mini-games can be ok as long as they stay"mini".
 

Edited by Frullo NDE
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