Dreamysyu Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 hours ago, bakauchuujin said: SP honestly seem to be driven 100% by corporate greed and 0% by their love of VNs. I that's 100% true, why do they even hire translators in the first place? They can always go SakuraGame route and simply sell edited machine translations, you know. It's always much cheaper and quicker to get machine-tl's into somewhat readable state than actually hire real people, you know. I mean, I'm not finding excuses for Sekai. They go a bit too far in their incompetence nowadays. But, feel free to disagree with me, I don't think it's anything more than incompetence. Mr Poltroon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 29 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said: The QC team should've caught these errors before they released the translations Did you even read what it said 29 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said: Not to mention they fucked up with Leyline, which already has 2 more installments that they have to release. How can I trust any follow up releases after this and their recent reputation with translation quality? Now they know how the engine mostly works they know how to fix it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 25 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said: All this update shows is how Sekai Project is very lazy and doesn't care as much as they should about releasing quality translations. Blaming their engines is only a scapegoat after all. The QC team should've caught these errors before they released the translations and instead, they just look worse than they already did before. I do honestly want them to fix their mistakes, but they keep creating new ones for themselves when their reputation is almost in the gutter as is. Not to mention they fucked up with Leyline, which already has 2 more installments that they have to release. How can I trust any follow up releases after this and their recent reputation with translation quality? Their QA team went over the script once it was finished. Turned out the engine was prone to crashing. After the QA pass was finished, they 'fixed' the engine and re-inserted the scripts. After that, they checked the instances where the engine was previously crashing. Excellent. Doesn't crash any more. Ship it. What is particularly 'lazy' about this? Were they supposed to pay their QA team to check the whole thing over again after fixing the engine? Maybe this is bad planning. Maybe QA should have only occurred once work on the engine was finished. Maybe they should have predicted changing the engine would have introduced new issues. Sekai Project's problem is not greed or laziness. It's incompetence. Lack of experience. Disjointed groups of people working for them. Some know what they're doing. Others are basically scamming SP. Dreamysyu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakauchuujin Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 42 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said: I that's 100% true, why do they even hire translators in the first place? They can always go SakuraGame route and simply sell edited machine translations, you know. It's always much cheaper and quicker to get machine-tl's into somewhat readable state than actually hire real people, you know. I mean, I'm not finding excuses for Sekai. They go a bit too far in their incompetence nowadays. But, feel free to disagree with me, I don't think it's anything more than incompetence. If they were to machine translate they wouldn't get big titles that sell well. Also while I agree with you that incompetence is their main problem I would argue that if they actually did something for the love of VNs they would actually put enough effort into it to not be totally incompetent (btw I mean the higher ups in the company not everyone who works there). Though I gues I went a bit far when I said they are 100% about corporate profits and 0% about the love of VNs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nandemonai Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Arcadeotic said: It was still their fault for releasing it with insufficient QA work done. This is more akin to paying the piper. I work in software myself. Their explanation makes perfect sense to me. They fell victim to one of the classic blunders: They made a risky change (upgrading a version in their script compiler) that they thought was a mostly-harmless change. Because it was right before the games were supposed to release, they said 'we just need to do a quick check and make sure nothing broke' when what they really needed to do was another full runthrough of the game. Why would they do this? Because their tests are still manual. Someone has to manually play the game and check for untranslated lines. This is another of the classic blunders. Something like checking for untranslated lines, or checking to make sure that there are no 'orphaned' parts of the script (lines that exist in the data but the engine never actually displays), can and should be automated. Anytime a build is generated, those checks should be run automatically. This is a bit more expensive to develop up front (because you have to write the tools to run these tests, and the infrastructure to do it automatically) but it saves a lot of QA effort, and avoids humiliating incidents like these. So they made a risky change they didn't realize was risky, and it blew up in their faces. Okay, fine. There's nothing out of the ordinary about this. It happens. And they can't revert the change, because it would cause even less acceptable issues. Also nothing unusual. Then they discovered fixing it requires rewriting the game engine, which is riddled with inline assembler (ugh!), and is generally a pain in the ass. Again, there's nothing unusual about this. There's two things about this that get me. First, Sekai's QA processes are clearly insufficient. The game should never have gotten out of the door like this. They need better tools and processes so they don't do so much manually. Each project needs to build a button that fires off a test to find out whether there are any untranslated lines. And they need to push that button every time they make any change. Second, this is Sekai Project being Sekai Project again: You must have known this weeks ago ago, guys. This happened right before Christmas, they might not have even started looking at it until early January, then it takes a while to really understand the problem. Then it takes a while to realize 'no, this isn't a quick fix'. By this time it's probably around mid-January. So why was it only announced this week? Look. Everybody makes mistakes. Bugs happen. But there's no excuse for not announcing this as soon as they knew what the root cause was. This is like them announcing they'd talk about Maitetsu 18+ at a con, then not doing it, and then leaving it hanging for months. Edited March 2, 2018 by Nandemonai Toranth, Dreamysyu, Asonn and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastDrifter Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 In any case, I hope they fix this properly. They've already got a bad enough rep as it is with their past mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvz Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I think what @EastCoastDrifter was trying to say was this: 1 - They sell the game as it is, with bugs to fix - people unaware of this buy it 2 - They fix the release - people who were aware of the problems now buy the game, since it is "perfect". They would not profit from selling a patch, but from players who expect a complete game and wait for these patches. Then, this would be something like Assassins Creed or EA in general, where they release a "full" game, but unfinished or bugged. Butttt I have to say I don't agree with that. VNs are a niche already, so they would not profit on the long term, since they'd stain their image on doing that, at least frequently. I mean, they have nothing to gain besides having to write these updates and then actually fixing the game. EastCoastDrifter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleshogun Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Late to the party here, but at least Sekai was intended on that so it's good I guess. As for the engine, I know that both of FAVORITE and Unionshift Blossom engine could be pain to work, because I have problem with their VNs in the past. Even so, at the very least Sekai should do final QC before release this because if they did that they should be able to find the problem easier. Although I guess it's a dilemma itself, because Sekai was probably told to be rushed the release. PS - After seeing the update, I just hope that they willing to do final checking for next two Tokeijikake in order to check the untranslated text before finally release it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1P1A Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 From what I remember from a Reddit thread, there was a person (or people) who claimed to be beta testers and submitted these exact problems. There's always the chance that they're full of shit and just using it as an excuse to further bash on Sekai, but it's really not necessary at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plk_Lesiak Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, Dreamysyu said: They can always go SakuraGame route and simply sell edited machine translations, you know. I haven't seen any proofs of SG translations being edited in any meaningful ways. Edited March 3, 2018 by Plk_Lesiak Nandemonai 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nandemonai Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 SakuraGame sold a game that was so poorly handled, that they had simply run the whole script through Google Translate. Script commands and all. The resulting script bore only a passing resemblance to something the game's engine could actually execute, so naturally it would crash early on. I don't remember which game that was, or if it was ever fixed. But that's pretty powerful evidence that they do not, in fact, edit their work at all. Plk_Lesiak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred the Barber Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 I would argue SakuraGame doesn't translate the original work, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamysyu Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 8 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said: I haven't seen any proofs of SG translations being edited in any meaningful ways. 6 hours ago, Nandemonai said: SakuraGame sold a game that was so poorly handled, that they had simply run the whole script through Google Translate. Script commands and all. The resulting script bore only a passing resemblance to something the game's engine could actually execute, so naturally it would crash early on. I don't remember which game that was, or if it was ever fixed. But that's pretty powerful evidence that they do not, in fact, edit their work at all. I'm not familiar with any of their works so I won't argue with that, but what I wanted to say is that even if they edit machine translations to at least look like English, it would still cost much less and take much less time than if they hire actual translators. I've seen some light novel fan-"translations" that do exactly that. They are mostly grammatically correct, as far as my English allows me to judge, but if you try to understand what exactly is written there, most sentences simply don't make any sense. Plk_Lesiak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acrylic7 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 (edited) Hello, I am new member. Nice to know you all. This is my first post. As much as I feel sorry for the situation, I hope they released the second trilogy of Ley Line soon. Edited March 3, 2018 by Acrylic7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastDrifter Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Acrylic7 said: Hello, I am new member. Nice to know you all. This is my first post. As much as I feel sorry for the situation, I hope they released the second trilogy of Ley Line soon. Hello, welcome to Fuwa. You could've at least introduced yourself in the introduction section of the forums though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plk_Lesiak Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 17 minutes ago, Acrylic7 said: Hello, I am new member. Nice to know you all. This is my first post. As much as I feel sorry for the situation, I hope they released the second trilogy of Ley Line soon. Hello, feel free to make a topic in the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself. And don't worry, @EastCoastDrifter wasn't scolding you, he just sounds like that sometimes. ;p I wouldn't be worried about the rest of the Layline games, Sekai definitely took a hit to their reputation, but they're nowhere close to going down - or at least there's no reason to think they are. With how they use Kickstarter, their investment risk is minimal, so they won't just go bankrupt from this blunder - obviously, they can't go like that forever, letting their clients down, but as long as they fix their mistakes the lack of serious competition and decent licences they have will keep them afloat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acrylic7 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 7 hours ago, EastCoastDrifter said: Hello, welcome to Fuwa. You could've at least introduced yourself in the introduction section of the forums though. Yes, my mistake. Thank you for the reminder though.  7 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said: Hello, feel free to make a topic in the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself. And don't worry, @EastCoastDrifter wasn't scolding you, he just sounds like that sometimes. ;p I wouldn't be worried about the rest of the Layline games, Sekai definitely took a hit to their reputation, but they're nowhere close to going down - or at least there's no reason to think they are. With how they use Kickstarter, their investment risk is minimal, so they won't just go bankrupt from this blunder - obviously, they can't go like that forever, letting their clients down, but as long as they fix their mistakes the lack of serious competition and decent licences they have will keep them afloat. It's okay. Thank you for the warm reply. Yes I know, but I just hope they will fasten it ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rin91 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Quote What’s the status on Hoshimemo We had some internal issues between the Q/A Team, the translators, the editors and the project manager. Certain aspects that were needed to be clarified with all parties were not and in the end, there were disagreements of stylistic choices of how characters would be portrayed speaking. We tried to find a happy middle ground, but the result was not perfect. We also had the same engine issues that Ley-Line had for its release. We’re looking at fixing the engine issues and revisiting the script along with working with members of the community on how to make sure this is the best release it can be. Source: Sekai Project AMA This is from Sekai's AMA thread on reddit. They really need to up their management game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirginSmasher Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 36 minutes ago, Rin91 said: This is from Sekai's AMA thread on reddit. They really need to up their management game. They've needed to since they became a company. They either refuse to do a good job or aren't hiring good enough management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 43 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said: aren't hiring good enough management. >Visual Novels >Finding actually good workers www Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirginSmasher Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kiriririri said: >Visual Novels >Finding actually good workers www Too true man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastDrifter Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said: he just sounds like that sometimes Am I really being that rude? Welp, I guess I better watch what I say next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freestyle80 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 so it took them 6-8 months to do that? Nice Leyline isnt even that big compared to most titles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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