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NowItsAngeTime

Opinions on the current visual novel fanbase/community?

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To be more specific I'm NOT talking about people/companies who focus on translating / licensing / releasing / making VNs because we've had plenty of discussions about them and their actions.

I'm talking about the fans. The randoms that frequent discussion on subreddits/forums/discords, the people that buy/consume VNs, people that follow and try to interact with big VNs at social media or anime conventions and follow kickstarters or whatever. So basically not just limited to /r/visualnovels.

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Now I want to be fair and talk about my personal views on what I current like and dislike about the community at the moment. I'll start with the negative stuff since some of it has been on my mind more recently.

The first thing is this weird sense of negativity I've been seeing more of more. Some of it is more subtle some of it are super obviously angry/douchey/elitist posts. There's things where people are angry with the way some of the companies handle releases of VNs. Some are justified, some are.. perhaps a bit overblown.

I'm more concerned with people who give other fans shit for supporting the company/companies they like to shit on. Regardless of whether you like a company or not some people still enjoy what companies despite what they do (or the so called problems don't affect these fans). A particular thing I've seen is calling people 'shills' just for trying to defend things company does that people might be misinformed about but since it's the in-thing to 'hate' on the company it's alright to use dumb insults like that.

And then outside the company thing, just creating (whether directly or indirectly) these weird elitist circlejerks against certain types of fandoms. JOPs vs EOPs. Official TLs vs Fan TLs. Kickstarters vs Not. Japanese made VNs vs OELVN/EVNs. Story VNs vs Moeges, How 18+ Content should be handled etc. For the EVNs in particular, I admit I haven't read any, but I've honestly started to wonder where these EVN fans are even supposed to talk about ones they like when many places like to call the popular EVNs "babbys first VNs" and make a lot of assumptions about EVNs that may not even be true.

Now obviously I'm not saying you have to force yourself to like things you don't like, just be respectful to be people who like things different from you and cut out the silly elitist/circlejerky like comments.

The only other thing is outside the occasional discussion, kickstarter topics, some video review and the few VN podcasts that exist, there isn't much in the way of ... fun VN content creation? Like I know streaming can't really work for viewers unless it's a really known entity (but even then) but I rarely see visual novel related memes (but maybe they're just purposefully screened out/deleted here), I don't see a dedicated person who makes reviews consistently, and I don't see any big drives for the community itself to spread the love of VNs to others outside big trends that happen by accident. I know the last point in particular is hard to do but you'd think we'd at least try or something.

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As said though, despite all the said above there are a bunch of things I like.

The fact that the VN community is just slowly growing and people are constantly finding new ways to sell VNs they like to other people is nice. There's always helpful people around when there's a legit issue people may have with the game.

Some discussions on various topics are a lot more interesting and mature than discussions I see on other media like movies, video games, sports, etc.

The content creation/other stuff that does exist is really nice to see since there's a bunch of cool projects that are taking off related to VNs.

While I do wish more of the communities were merged together it's still nice to see a whole lot of different ACTIVE VN communities for many types of VNs or that focus on certain parts that are cool and varied. Some are for getting people to read a particular type of VN, some are for people who like a certain company, etc.

I think it's nice to see how people get passionate can get towards the VN developers/TLers/whatever, seeing the hype of newer releases, and seeing people bond and meet when they otherwise wouldn't through a still niche medium. And just seeing lots of different kinds of VNs that get popular and seeing why people like them.


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Anyway, I ranted quite a bit. What are you guys' thoughts on the current community/fanbase?

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You have to have in mind that this is not only true to the eroge/VN community, but to fandoms in general. Pretty much any fandom is, like you implied, shit. The problem is that everybody thinks they have the best opinion or they are the biggest fan and are never open to a meaningful discussion. You can see this even here on Fuwa, although in a less extent.

I've left some fandoms behind because of things like that. Once I received a death threat from a Harry Potter maniac because I said something in the lines of not liking a character that he loved. And I wouldn't take it seriously if I did not knew this person before and know how insane he was with his obsessions.

The thing is: people take their bias very seriously, and any discussion that arises from topics such as the ones you mentioned will always be useless.

Every time I see a "Do you prefer All Ages or 18?" I think on ranting on the thread. These happen almost in a weekly basis.l

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I'm one of these negative people you talk about usually, but that's because I like to think more realistically about this medium. All the moege hate and shit like that is personal preference and if you let it bother you, that's not my problem.

And for the community in general, I usually can't stand the Steam sector of the VN medium, mainly because they're the ones promoting stuff like the Sakura series as what VNs are represented as. The reddit sector went sour on me because of the Aokana incident back in 2016 and I haven't liked them since. Fuwanovel's the only community with people that I like to talk to and can have conversations with and that's why I (occasionally) stick around here.

Sorry for all the negativity, but this is just how I see things.

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I read through all of that. It was pretty long, but sometimes you just have to rant.

I think that there are bad people everywhere, but I'm really grateful for the amazing and wonderful people I get to interact with. I spend a lot of time getting to know individuals, and I think some of my favorite people are VN enthusiasts.

If you focus on getting to know specific people, I think you'll be able to move past a lot of these difficulties. Good luck and thanks for the read!

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"To each, their own", personally that's how i look at it. When those versus scenario's you mentioned appear, I don't really mind it if those arguments are about the VNs themselves, though sometimes people tend to start insulting and generalising people on a personal level, example: "f people that read moege, they're all ....".  People like different VNS, and i agree with you that they should be respectful of that at least. Honestly I don't even hate or dislike people that read sakura games, people find some value in it that i don't understand [i have guesses though], but that's fine.

Arguing about VN genres, distributor systems, translations, h-scenes etc is a good thing, it promotes discourse and involvement in a community. It also creates awareness, it causes people to research things for themselves, and learn new information on subjects they're not familiar with. People can think for themselves [if they want], they can form their own opinions about, say, "Is that translation as bad as they say it is", "are h-scenes really essential to this particular VN based on its themes". "should i trust sekai to deliver physicals at a reasonable time from the announced date?". Those arguments do provide good information at times. 

I don't have a clear picture of how the VN community is as a whole since i only use fuwa for VN related things [its the only forum i use.], whatever I need to know is here and if i'm uncertain of something, there are people here that I can ask. The mods run a tight ship [i think], if people get attacked here, i trust that they'll take care of it, so it creates a cleaner environment for people to discuss what they want. If the vn community outside of fuwa is anything like here, i think that's pretty decent [i doubt it though, since this is the internet]. 

Fans as a whole are like a stereotype of an american high school in movies, there's always going to be various groups that are elitist about what they like, but there's also the majority of nameless students walking around, going to school, studying and going back home, not bothering too much about the fuss around them. 

Edited by DharmaFreedom
typo

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1 hour ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

To be more specific I'm NOT talking about people/companies who focus on translating / licensing / releasing / making VNs because we've had plenty of discussions about them and their actions.

I'm talking about the fans. The randoms that frequent discussion on subreddits/forums/discords, the people that buy/consume VNs, people that follow and try to interact with big VNs at social media or anime conventions and follow kickstarters or whatever. So basically not just limited to /r/visualnovels.

----------

Now I want to be fair and talk about my personal views on what I current like and dislike about the community at the moment. I'll start with the negative stuff since some of it has been on my mind more recently.

The first thing is this weird sense of negativity I've been seeing more of more. Some of it is more subtle some of it are super obviously angry/douchey/elitist posts. There's things where people are angry with the way some of the companies handle releases of VNs. Some are justified, some are.. perhaps a bit overblown.

I'm more concerned with people who give other fans shit for supporting the company/companies they like to shit on. Regardless of whether you like a company or not some people still enjoy what companies despite what they do (or the so called problems don't affect these fans). A particular thing I've seen is calling people 'shills' just for trying to defend things company does that people might be misinformed about but since it's the in-thing to 'hate' on the company it's alright to use dumb insults like that.

And then outside the company thing, just creating (whether directly or indirectly) these weird elitist circlejerks against certain types of fandoms. JOPs vs EOPs. Official TLs vs Fan TLs. Kickstarters vs Not. Japanese made VNs vs OELVN/EVNs. Story VNs vs Moeges, How 18+ Content should be handled etc. For the EVNs in particular, I admit I haven't read any, but I've honestly started to wonder where these EVN fans are even supposed to talk about ones they like when many places like to call the popular EVNs "babbys first VNs" and make a lot of assumptions about EVNs that may not even be true.

 


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Anyway, I ranted quite a bit. What are you guys' thoughts on the current community/fanbase?

Elitism is inevitable when you have experienced and active people and new people.  I stay out of translation conversations, for the most part, these days... but I used to be pretty poisonous about it.  Most people who get to the point where they can play Japanese VNs in their original language eventually hit a phase where they ritually bash every translation or obsessively and aggressively promote their own ideas on translation and localization.  I myself have opinions... but I don't like feeding the trolls, so I restrict myself to a maximum of three posts in any thread where that is the subject. 

As a whole, the VN community has gotten larger, but the essential nature of the VN community hasn't changed.  We are a narrow niche community, even amongst otakus and readers in general.  The larger number of localizations has led to it being easier for more people to find an interesting entryway into the medium, but that just means we are becoming more and more like 'normal' otaku communities...

 

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Like @VirginSmasher I am also one of the more (shall we say) serious people when it comes to this medium. And I wouldn't be surprised if part of what motivated you to start this topic was because of the topic I started around a week ago. Which if you did read through that, then you would have found out that I do genuinely love this medium a lot. And it is precisely because of that love which is exactly why I hold it to high standards. Just like how parents who love their children have high standards for their kids because they want their kids to succeed in life. I similarly want to see this relatively obscure medium be treated with respect as it grows in popularity. Regardless, I don't want to make this an extension of that discussion, because you brought up some other interesting points that I would rather discuss. 

I think the Japanese VNs vs EVNs is stupid, but I understand why there is such a split. Even just 7 - 8 years ago, VNs were super obscure. And back then EVNs were pretty much complete trash. I think at best we had only Act 1 of Katawa Shoujo, Memo, and at most 3 other titles that were okay. But none of those even compared to the epic proportions of stories that Japanese VNs had. Fate Stay Night, G-Senjou no Maou, Swan Song, Kanon; these were decent length to long stories that had good production values. And thats just stuff that was fan-translated at the time. If you ventured deeper into the untld realm, you could find a lot of gold. And thats also not to mention good Japanese VNs that were officially licensed and released in English, such as Ever17, Crescendo, Kana Little Sister, and Yume Miru Kusuri. If you wanted a good VN around that time (which is when I started), your only option was Japanese. I think a lot of older fans still have that negative predisposition towards EVNs. We started with Japanese because thats all we really had at the time, and we have stuck to Japanese because of the large library. We haven't had a need or reason to look at EVNs. That said, with titles like Katawa Shoujo, Dysfunctional Systems, Va-11 Hall-a, etc. I actually think that EVNs have some pretty solid titles to offer now. But they still only have a really small library in comparison to the Japanese library.

A big problem I think though, is that because of this historic divide. The divide has only gotten worse as VNs have started to grow in popularity. In the past at least, the Japanese VN crowd was mostly filled with fans of VNs. People who liked reading VNs. The EVN crowd however, was filled with people who just liked making them (i.e Lemmasoft). But often the people who made EVNs had read relatively few VNs if any at all. From what I have seen, it seems that they pretty much only read each others VNs. But largely ignored commercial Japanese titles. Like wise, Japanese VN fans usually didn't venture into EVNs, because the quality was much lower than what they were used to. So there was a complete disengagement with both communities. We might be seeing the repercussions of that now as these medium is growing in popularity.  

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Hello, my name is Zaka and I'm probably a softcore ""elitist"".

2 hours ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

The first thing is this weird sense of negativity I've been seeing more of more. Some of it is more subtle some of it are super obviously angry/douchey/elitist posts. There's things where people are angry with the way some of the companies handle releases of VNs. Some are justified, some are.. perhaps a bit overblown.

I would suggest that you move your bar for elitism upward significantly, so that your standards are not so pitifully low.

...Some of them are totally overblown though.

But real talk: do you really want to call it negativity to say that localizations are generally bad to shit tier? Because sure, that's an opinion, but I hold it for a reason. To me it's not negativity, it's just stating how I see the world.

2 hours ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

I'm more concerned with people who give other fans shit for supporting the company/companies they like to shit on. Regardless of whether you like a company or not some people still enjoy what companies despite what they do (or the so called problems don't affect these fans). A particular thing I've seen is calling people 'shills' just for trying to defend things company does that people might be misinformed about but since it's the in-thing to 'hate' on the company it's alright to use dumb insults like that.

The problem lies in assigning yourself as the official defender of $company in the first place. This kind of tribal mindset, especially towards a company, repulses me. And then they inevitably say something factually incorrect or plain retarded and my respect for them goes down even further. I myself have been bothered by inaccuracies of fact when it comes to official companies (no, SP didn't do DI), but I manage to not be a goddamn fanboy.

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I think elitism in anything can be a bit of a bore, I see it from time to time when people glorify being able to play untranslated VN's (insert meme about learning Japanese here)

I don't take part in the company bashing myself because I'm not well versed in what their practices are, and to be honest I don't really care that much about what a certain company does. I'll usually lurk on the sidelines while those discussions play out. On genuine toxicity I have yet to see any of that really here, which is remarkable considering how toxic video games have often become. That's one of the reasons why I like this community so much. For example, I have not yet seen people go "Don't come talking to me about vn's unless you have played, this, this, or this." So that's a relief. I haven't been involved with the steam vn community or others so I don't have any opinions about that.

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As much as I can tell after my relatively short adventure with the VN fandom, it's definitely not the worst one out there. I think there's a sense of solidarity among more dedicated VN fans, considering how niche our hobby is - while people argue, as they do everywhere, I didn't see much of outright hostility and faction wars that plagues bigger fan communities. Even the creative OELVN fandom and the old-guard JP VN fans, as much as there might be a lot of misunderstanding between them, rather keep to their own little corners than clash with each other. And while I don't like fan elitism, it's also pretty much a constant in niches like this.

4 hours ago, VirginSmasher said:

And for the community in general, I usually can't stand the Steam sector of the VN medium, mainly because they're the ones promoting stuff like the Sakura series as what VNs are represented as.

Well, there are some interesting niches in the Steam VN community - especially considering that most people playing Sakura games and Nekopara there are not really interested in the medium and aren't that active with the actual VN-oriented groups. I think that the communities around Hella Yuri curator page and some other visual novel fangroups are quite decent, the success of all the trash ecchi VNs on Steam is more about horny teenager than any actual "VN community".

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Oh my... are you trying to open a can of worms here Ange? :D

Anyway, what you are talking about is pretty normal, for all communities. VN community ain't even the worst offender I know. Just take a look at those PC master race VS console wars and similar, and you'll see a real negativity there. I myself try to stay out of toxic communities like that precisely because of that reason.

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Though this is a problem everywhere, the VN community is too small and because of that one of the things I dislike the most ends up arising: Herd mentality. People start acting the way the community wants, liking the same things, disliking the same things, thinking the same way and saying the same words. It's not something you like/dislike anymore, but instead something the community thinks is bad, therefore it is.

When someone asks for recommendations, for example, almost everyone would recommend the same things. If you ask "what's the best VN from X genre", most would answer the same way. Since there's only a tiny fraction of all VNs out there translated, the community ends up deciding how certain titles would be received, even untranslated ones are like this (Though there's expections that break this "rule", like DDLC).

Since everyone started to think in a certain way, the community doesn't renew itself. And a stagnated community stop working to become a better community, because most people think the same way and start believing their opinion is a fact, which then finally become what everyone calls "elitism". As we grow bigger, it starts to get better. In the last few years I've been seing people becoming a little bit more open-minded, and starting to free themselves from this mindset, liking different things and acting as a person instead of acting as a group.

 

One thing I like is that there's in fact some love for VNs in this community (Though sometimes it's a twisted one). People are dedicated, because of that we can find information more easily, you can find translation progress here, new releases there, guides here and there, people would help you if needed. Though the problem above is just one of the various problems, being a "small group" make us more united which is great. The anime community, for example, got really toxic as it grew too much and now people need to find small groups or be alone to maintain their minds safe.

 

These are just one thing I like and one I dislike about the community, there's more but since I don't want this to be too long, I'll stop here.

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7 minutes ago, Testarossa said:

Though this is a problem everywhere, the VN community is too small and because of that one of the things I dislike the most ends up arising: Herd mentality. People start acting the way the community wants, liking the same things, disliking the same things, thinking the same way and saying the same words. It's not something you like/dislike anymore, but instead something the community thinks is bad, therefore it is.

When someone asks for recommendations, for example, almost everyone would recommend the same things. If you ask "what's the best VN from X genre", most would answer the same way. Since there's only a tiny fraction of all VNs out there translated, the community ends up deciding how certain titles would be received, even untranslated ones are like this (Though there's expections that break this "rule", like DDLC).

Since everyone started to think in a certain way, the community doesn't renew itself. And a stagnated community stop working to become a better community, because most people think the same way and start believing their opinion is a fact, which then finally become what everyone calls "elitism". As we grow bigger, it starts to get better. In the last few years I've been seing people becoming a little bit more open-minded, and starting to free themselves from this mindset, liking different things and acting as a person instead of acting as a group.

 

One thing I like is that there's in fact some love for VNs in this community (Though sometimes it's a twisted one). People are dedicated, because of that we can find information more easily, you can find translation progress here, new releases there, guides here and there, people would help you if needed. Though the problem above is just one of the various problems, being a "small group" make us more united which is great. The anime community, for example, got really toxic as it grew too much and now people need to find small groups or be alone to maintain their minds safe.

 

These are just one thing I like and one I dislike about the community, there's more but since I don't want this to be too long, I'll stop here.

 

I agree with the herd mentality as i've seen that first hand on multiple occasions. Although it's hard to recommend original stuff when the community at large seems to be satisfied getting only moege. 

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Hello guys, it's me, Bee, and as someone who has experienced the so called "EOP" spectrum of the community and slowly but surely being able to see through the lens of the "JOP" spectrum I'll throw in my two cents and give an opinion of what this community is, or at least define what the outlying problems within it are.

Since I don't want to get this post deleted because "muh drama" and "negativity" or some of that crap mods like to make up sometimes I'll just give general outlines and not specify or go very deep into things. 

I'll start the summary by going to everyone's favourite place to hang out these days with other "vn enthusiasts" which is Reddit:

Community: the majory of dwellers inside here are either EOP's (yes, I said EOP's, get triggered) or elitist JOP's whose sole role in their lives is to shit on everything and anything; it doesn't matter if it's a fantl or a "professional" translation. Examples: "Oh my god, this translation has sub-par English and I, even if I'm a native/polish-english speaker but haven't worked as an editor ever before, would've done this way better. I pity the low-iq mongers who like this and blah blah blah..." you can get the gist of what I'm talking about. (Spoiler alert: not everyone in Reddit is like this, this is just my conception in general of what it represents now and what it has always represented.)

Modding: I have not much to say in regards to reddit modding, but as far as I know and it goes I really don't see glaring issues with it. Mods don't seem biased when deleting posts like in other subreddits and they let every cancerous thread be in general, so that's my take on it. (I don't visit reddit so I'm most likely 99% wrong here, so no flame for this.)

And now it's time for Fuwa小説 (Shousetsu is "novel" for the EOP's):

Community: I honestly feel like there's a mix of a lot of people and personalities in general. It feels like in general this is a "more friendly" community in a sense, it's too PC for my tastes in general, but no matter who you are you'll end up finding people to be around within here if you look hard enough (I mean, just look at my cancerous ass.) It has way more EOP's than JOP's in general and it probably lacks elitism, which shies away potential drama which could, in short, generate more conversations. Elitism is cancer, but it's a necessary cancer, and it creates discussion, compared to just accepting new people who "Have just read Doki Doki or Grisaia and they already think they'll never read anything before." JOP's are partly right when they refer to original works being better, spoiler alert, they are because translations never deliver what the author intended, and no matter how good the translator is the majority of these games have what makes them special, taken from them. ANyways, I'm derailing too much. In general, there's a broader spectrum of people here, way less than reddit, which leads to the false belief that "we" are more cohesioned, which is a lie. I've never seen such categorization and grouping as I've seen in this medium ever. Then again, I've not been to many mediums either so yeah.

Modding: and the last point I mention falls back on the topic of modding in this website. I'll try to sum it up saying that the mod team as it is right now feels like good modding consists solely on deleting posts that are "harmful" or "incite hate." I know that there are probably other duties you have to fulfill as a mod, but as far as I'm concerned deleting posts and handing bans without reason / warning seems to be the priority now, god bless. 

Now, inb4 angry mods come and say "You have two warning posts for trolling, lmao." Firstly, I am not putting as an example my personal experiences here because my warnings were justified (TLDR; I told someone to kill himself in a post and I created troll threads personally attacking Okami.) The issue stems from things like deleting a SoU DeSukA meme with a spongebob picture in a thread that was talking about localizations or something like that, or literally deleting a post that says "Kiri rules this community" in this thread. Mods need to start discerning which posts are clearly toxic and which posts are just friendly banter. Derailing is a shit reason to hide posts and everyone derails in general at some point. Inb4 my post is derailing.

The last point I want to touch is that some of the mods have a tendency to stick their noses where they shouldn't be doing it. My recommendation would be to stick modding in Fuwanovel and it's official Discord and stop trying to meddle with other servers that have nothing to do officially with it. If you want to do so become a mod of said server. (Inb4 omg Bee this drama with the FuwaSpammers Discord server again? Yes, it needs to be addressed because I found it literally ridiculous.) *Inb4 people say that this is an excuse to roast the mods in this forum. I won't deny that maybe that's the case.

Now, aside from these, I'll rebute some points from certain users:

7 hours ago, Zakamutt said:

But real talk: do you really want to call it negativity to say that localizations are generally bad to shit tier? Because sure, that's an opinion, but I hold it for a reason. To me it's not negativity, it's just stating how I see the world.

People have to start realizing that the "professional" spectrum of the scene in a general sense is full of amateurs and people who just get hired starting from a fantranslation background. I'm not saying that some of them turn out to be good, or that there are no pros in the scene, which is false, but the majority of the industry (both in the translation/editing grounds and the company management and companies'-side of things it's full of young people and amateurs who just jump at the scene hoping they succeed and have some luck with their releases, no matter how bad things are handled in a general sense. 

7 hours ago, Zakamutt said:

The problem lies in assigning yourself as the official defender of $company in the first place. This kind of tribal mindset, especially towards a company, repulses me. And then they inevitably say something factually incorrect or plain retarded and my respect for them goes down even further. I myself have been bothered by inaccuracies of fact when it comes to official companies (no, SP didn't do DI), but I manage to not be a goddamn fanboy.

I don't mind people that defend companies in general, but I'll admit that those persons are either:

1) "Shills" that literally work for said company, won't say names.

2) People that will always buy everything from VN companies as long as the text is slightly readable in English and has anime boobs / anime art + japanese voices.

Also, if someone defends Sekai Project at this point I'll actually think that either they have mental disabilitities or are in a state of complete denial about how they need to burn to the ground.

10 hours ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

The first thing is this weird sense of negativity I've been seeing more of more. Some of it is more subtle some of it are super obviously angry/douchey/elitist posts. There's things where people are angry with the way some of the companies handle releases of VNs. Some are justified, some are.. perhaps a bit overblown.

Negativity stems from being in this medium too long and seeing the same shit happen over and over again or from being or becoming an old person. There are more "old" people in this community that people seem to believe.

10 hours ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

For the EVNs in particular, I admit I haven't read any, but I've honestly started to wonder where these EVN fans are even supposed to talk about ones they like when many places like to call the popular EVNs "babbys first VNs" and make a lot of assumptions about EVNs that may not even be true.

Now obviously I'm not saying you have to force yourself to like things you don't like, just be respectful to be people who like things different from you and cut out the silly elitist/circlejerky like comments.

EVN's in a general standpoint are complete and utter trash that need to be removed from this planet. The majority of them follow the same patterns and the majority of companies behind them don't fall behind on the schedule:

1) Either copy the format of Japanese VN's (why calling them EVN's then in the first place? Call them Japanesey VN's in English at this point) or generally make a theme that contains as much degeneracy as possible (I can't count the number of times I've seen the topic of "gay/trans protagonist in an even gayer/transier adventure). *Not all EVN's are like these are a very few amount are decent reads.

2) Companies that make them follow the Sekai Project mindset of doing a kickstarter as a backup plan in case they utterly fail selling it (and they will in most of the cases) so they don't suffer money loss. Stop spamming Patreons and Kickstarter campaigns, it gets boring and abusing the crowdfunding system is not the best way to gain support.

Anyways, I think that's all the ranting I'll do. Maybe I derailed a bit but whether or not that's the case we'll see it soon, as the mods like to categorize mine or any of "HMN's Crew" posts as troll in the first place.

 

Edited by Barry Benson

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9 minutes ago, Barry Benson said:

Hello guys, it's me, Bee, and as someone who has experienced the so called "EOP" spectrum of the community and slowly but surely being able to see through the lens of the "JOP" spectrum I'll throw in my two cents and give an opinion of what this community is, or at least define what the outlying problems within it are.

Since I don't want to get this post deleted because "muh drama" and "negativity" or some of that crap mods like to make up sometimes I'll just give general outlines and not specify or go very deep into things. 

I'll start the summary by going to everyone's favourite place to hang out these days with other "vn enthusiasts" which is Reddit:

Community: the majory of dwellers inside here are either EOP's (yes, I said EOP's, get triggered) or elitist JOP's whose sole role in their lives is to shit on everything and anything; it doesn't matter if it's a fantl or a "professional" translation. Examples: "Oh my god, this translation has sub-par English and I, even if I'm a native/polish-english speaker but haven't worked as an editor ever before, would've done this way better. I pity the low-iq mongers who like this and blah blah blah..." you can get the gist of what I'm talking about. (Spoiler alert: not everyone in Reddit is like this, this is just my conception in general of what it represents now and what it has always represented.)

Modding: I have not much to say in regards to reddit modding, but as far as I know and it goes I really don't see glaring issues with it. Mods don't seem biased when deleting posts like in other subreddits and they let every cancerous thread be in general, so that's my take on it. (I don't visit reddit so I'm most likely 99% wrong here, so no flame for this.)

And now it's time for Fuwa小説 (Shousetsu is "novel" for the EOP's):

Community: I honestly feel like there's a mix of a lot of people and personalities in general. It feels like in general this is a "more friendly" community in a sense, it's too PC for my tastes in general, but no matter who you are you'll end up finding people to be around within here if you look hard enough (I mean, just look at my cancerous ass.) It has way more EOP's than JOP's in general and it probably lacks elitism, which shies away potential drama which could, in short, generate more conversations. Elitism is cancer, but it's a necessary cancer, and it creates discussion, compared to just accepting new people who "Have just read Doki Doki or Grisaia and they already think they'll never read anything before." JOP's are partly right when they refer to original works being better, spoiler alert, they are because translations never deliver what the author intended, and no matter how good the translator is the majority of these games have what makes them special, taken from them. ANyways, I'm derailing too much. In general, there's a broader spectrum of people here, way less than reddit, which leads to the false belief that "we" are more cohesioned, which is a lie. I've never seen such categorization and grouping as I've seen in this medium ever. Then again, I've not been to many mediums either so yeah.

Modding: and the last point I mention falls back on the topic of modding in this website. I'll try to sum it up saying that the mod team as it is right now feels like good modding consists solely on deleting posts that are "harmful" or "incite hate." I know that there are probably other duties you have to fulfill as a mod, but as far as I'm concerned deleting posts and handing bans without reason / warning seems to be the priority now, god bless. 

Now, inb4 angry mods come and say "You have two warning posts for trolling, lmao." Firstly, I am not putting as an example my personal experiences here because my warnings were justified (TLDR; I told someone to kill himself in a post and I created troll threads personally attacking Okami.) The issue stems from things like deleting a SoU DeSukA meme with a spongebob picture in a thread that was talking about localizations or something like that, or literally deleting a post that says "Kiri rules this community" in this thread. Mods need to start discerning which posts are clearly toxic and which posts are just friendly banter. Derailing is a shit reason to hide posts and everyone derails in general at some point. Inb4 my post is derailing.

The last point I want to touch is that some of the mods have a tendency to stick their noses where they shouldn't be doing it. My recommendation would be to stick modding in Fuwanovel and it's official Discord and stop trying to meddle with other servers that have nothing to do officially with it. If you want to do so become a mod of said server. (Inb4 omg Bee this drama with the FuwaSpammers Discord server again? Yes, it needs to be addressed because I found it literally ridiculous.) *Inb4 people say that this is an excuse to roast the mods in this forum. I won't deny that maybe that's the case.

Now, aside from these, I'll rebute some points from certain users:

People have to start realizing that the "professional" spectrum of the scene in a general sense is full of amateurs and people who just get hired starting from a fantranslation background. I'm not saying that some of them turn out to be good, or that there are no pros in the scene, which is false, but the majority of the industry (both in the translation/editing grounds and the company management and companies'-side of things it's full of young people and amateurs who just jump at the scene hoping they succeed and have some luck with their releases, no matter how bad things are handled in a general sense. 

I don't mind people that defend companies in general, but I'll admit that those persons are either:

1) "Shills" that literally work for said company, won't say names.

2) People that will always buy everything from VN companies as long as the text is slightly readable in English and has anime boobs / anime art + japanese voices.

Also, if someone defends Sekai Project at this point I'll actually think that either they have mental disabilitities or are in a state of complete denial about how they need to burn to the ground.

Negativity stems from being in this medium too long and seeing the same shit happen over and over again or from being or becoming an old person. There are more "old" people in this community that people seem to believe.

EVN's in a general standpoint are complete and utter trash that need to be removed from this planet. The majority of them follow the same patterns and the majority of companies behind them don't fall behind on the schedule:

1) Either copy the format of Japanese VN's (why calling them EVN's then in the first place? Call them Japanesey VN's in English at this point) or generally make a theme that contains as much degeneracy as possible (I can't count the number of times I've seen the topic of "gay/trans protagonist in an even gayer/transier adventure). *Not all EVN's are like these are a very few amount are decent reads.

2) Companies that make them follow the Sekai Project mindset of doing a kickstarter as a backup plan in case they utterly fail selling it (and they will in most of the cases) so they don't suffer money loss. Stop spamming Patreons and Kickstarter campaigns, it gets boring and abusing the crowdfunding system is not the best way to gain support.

Anyways, I think that's all the ranting I'll do. Maybe I derailed a bit but whether or not that's the case we'll see it soon, as the mods like to categorize mine or any of "HMN's Crew" posts as troll in the first place.

 

You know, there is few things in this community that truly pisses me off more than when people cry and whine about some spelling mistakes or bad grammar in a pure fan translation. That is incredibly rude and disrespectful. This changes 180 degrees when it's a paid product though. Then quality is expected, and when it shows they've either been lazy or rushing the translation then they deserve 100% of the backlash for it.

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5 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

You know, there is few things in this community that truly pisses me off more than when people cry and whine about some spelling mistakes or bad grammar in a pure fan translation. That is incredibly rude and disrespectful. This changes 180 degrees when it's a paid product though. Then quality is expected, and when it shows they've either been lazy or rushing the translation then they deserve 100% of the backlash for it.

You say "some spelling mistakes and bad grammar", I say "bad writing". If the problem really were just what you're saying, things would be different. With that said, many people actually seem to mention the typo count and not much else, so I suppose you have a point.

I still don't think fan translations should not be criticized. Actually good translators have a tendency to seek out criticism anyway.

--

I want to answer bee on one point but I gotta catch the bus to get to this lecture. Uni is hitler confirmed

 

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Naturally, I find this similar to the overall anime fandom. There is no true united community, so the VN community is fractured into many sub-divisions that may or may not get along with each other. I think @BunnyAdvocate puts it best with his analysis maps on his Tumblr page.

I know some people are elitists when it comes to eroge content, and will never touch a VN on Steam for this very reason. Most of the time, they're simply purists who don't want to see the VN altered from its original format, and will often point fingers at western society and values for "getting in the way of eroge localization".

This can also extend to particular VNs too. I remember when the Grisaia hate train was a thing on Fuwanovel, with users like @Vorathiel leading the charge. It became more popular to bash Grisaia than to discuss about it, which turned off many users, including myself, from ever speaking about Grisaia seriously.

Oddly enough, I've seen OELVNs get a lot of hate from most VNs fans. It can go either one of two ways. If the OELVN has anime art, it's immediately slammed for being nothing but "weeb fantasy". If the OELVN has western art, it's slammed for being a "cardinal sin" to VNs as a whole. Right now, OELVNs are facing a Morton's Fork situation, creating the negative stereotype among the VN community that "OELVNs are inferior to true Japanese VNs" regardless of the approach. It's very similar to the "western anime are not anime" debacle.

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49 minutes ago, Barry Benson said:

as much degeneracy as possible (I can't count the number of times I've seen the topic of "gay/trans protagonist in an even gayer/transier adventure)

"Degeneracy"? That's an interesting choice of words. TBH, there's a lot of queer stories in the OELVN community because there's a lot of LGBT creators in it, but I can't think of many high-profile titles that would be actually that transgressive, other than Ladykiller in a Bind. More often than not games from events such as Yuri Game Jam are quite fluffy/tame TBH... And seriously, reading yuris not written by a middle-aged dude in Japan can be quite refreshing. :P

Edited by Plk_Lesiak

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That "elitism" is like a shock of generations to me, "elitists" are in majority from a time where western vns are garbage, translated products were scarce and unprofessional and the only way to truly go deep in the hobby is learn jp and go to the untranslated area, not that today things are much better. It's like  when some old people say that homosexuality is a disease, they are forged with this way of thinking, the society that they lived had this way of thinking, they started in other context. On the topic of negativism, im a little negative in relation of the markets (western and jp), but that is grounded in facts and reality, i don't think that type of negativism is wrong or bad, it only shows that people have the feet on the ground. I don't know if with others are that way, but at least to me, i only see what's happening with the western market if there some big news or commotion going on, and most of time is the later, so, my image of the western market is things like the hoshimemo fiasco or how moenovel is aiming for french girls. That don't help much my vision of things and in a certain way consecrates some of my "elitist" opnion.

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6 hours ago, Infernoplex said:

Oh my... are you trying to open a can of worms here Ange? :D

Anyway, what you are talking about is pretty normal, for all communities. VN community ain't even the worst offender I know. Just take a look at those PC master race VS console wars and similar, and you'll see a real negativity there. I myself try to stay out of toxic communities like that precisely because of that reason.

 

It's just something that's been on my mind for a while and wanted to bring up. I more than welcome the discussion (even the bunch of people who seem to disagree with me)

I know VNs community isnt the worst offender by any means, just one of the ones Ive had the most personal investment into.

Edited by NowItsAngeTime

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5 hours ago, Barry Benson said:

Hello guys, it's me, Bee, and as someone who has experienced the so called "EOP" spectrum of the community and slowly but surely being able to see through the lens of the "JOP" spectrum I'll throw in my two cents and give an opinion of what this community is, or at least define what the outlying problems within it are.

Since I don't want to get this post deleted because "muh drama" and "negativity" or some of that crap mods like to make up sometimes I'll just give general outlines and not specify or go very deep into things. 

I'll start the summary by going to everyone's favourite place to hang out these days with other "vn enthusiasts" which is Reddit:

Community: the majory of dwellers inside here are either EOP's (yes, I said EOP's, get triggered) or elitist JOP's whose sole role in their lives is to shit on everything and anything; it doesn't matter if it's a fantl or a "professional" translation. Examples: "Oh my god, this translation has sub-par English and I, even if I'm a native/polish-english speaker but haven't worked as an editor ever before, would've done this way better. I pity the low-iq mongers who like this and blah blah blah..." you can get the gist of what I'm talking about. (Spoiler alert: not everyone in Reddit is like this, this is just my conception in general of what it represents now and what it has always represented.)

Modding: I have not much to say in regards to reddit modding, but as far as I know and it goes I really don't see glaring issues with it. Mods don't seem biased when deleting posts like in other subreddits and they let every cancerous thread be in general, so that's my take on it. (I don't visit reddit so I'm most likely 99% wrong here, so no flame for this.)

And now it's time for Fuwa小説 (Shousetsu is "novel" for the EOP's):

Community: I honestly feel like there's a mix of a lot of people and personalities in general. It feels like in general this is a "more friendly" community in a sense, it's too PC for my tastes in general, but no matter who you are you'll end up finding people to be around within here if you look hard enough (I mean, just look at my cancerous ass.) It has way more EOP's than JOP's in general and it probably lacks elitism, which shies away potential drama which could, in short, generate more conversations. Elitism is cancer, but it's a necessary cancer, and it creates discussion, compared to just accepting new people who "Have just read Doki Doki or Grisaia and they already think they'll never read anything before." JOP's are partly right when they refer to original works being better, spoiler alert, they are because translations never deliver what the author intended, and no matter how good the translator is the majority of these games have what makes them special, taken from them. ANyways, I'm derailing too much. In general, there's a broader spectrum of people here, way less than reddit, which leads to the false belief that "we" are more cohesioned, which is a lie. I've never seen such categorization and grouping as I've seen in this medium ever. Then again, I've not been to many mediums either so yeah.

Modding: and the last point I mention falls back on the topic of modding in this website. I'll try to sum it up saying that the mod team as it is right now feels like good modding consists solely on deleting posts that are "harmful" or "incite hate." I know that there are probably other duties you have to fulfill as a mod, but as far as I'm concerned deleting posts and handing bans without reason / warning seems to be the priority now, god bless. 

Now, inb4 angry mods come and say "You have two warning posts for trolling, lmao." Firstly, I am not putting as an example my personal experiences here because my warnings were justified (TLDR; I told someone to kill himself in a post and I created troll threads personally attacking Okami.) The issue stems from things like deleting a SoU DeSukA meme with a spongebob picture in a thread that was talking about localizations or something like that, or literally deleting a post that says "Kiri rules this community" in this thread. Mods need to start discerning which posts are clearly toxic and which posts are just friendly banter. Derailing is a shit reason to hide posts and everyone derails in general at some point. Inb4 my post is derailing.

The last point I want to touch is that some of the mods have a tendency to stick their noses where they shouldn't be doing it. My recommendation would be to stick modding in Fuwanovel and it's official Discord and stop trying to meddle with other servers that have nothing to do officially with it. If you want to do so become a mod of said server. (Inb4 omg Bee this drama with the FuwaSpammers Discord server again? Yes, it needs to be addressed because I found it literally ridiculous.) *Inb4 people say that this is an excuse to roast the mods in this forum. I won't deny that maybe that's the case.

Now, aside from these, I'll rebute some points from certain users:

People have to start realizing that the "professional" spectrum of the scene in a general sense is full of amateurs and people who just get hired starting from a fantranslation background. I'm not saying that some of them turn out to be good, or that there are no pros in the scene, which is false, but the majority of the industry (both in the translation/editing grounds and the company management and companies'-side of things it's full of young people and amateurs who just jump at the scene hoping they succeed and have some luck with their releases, no matter how bad things are handled in a general sense. 

I don't mind people that defend companies in general, but I'll admit that those persons are either:

1) "Shills" that literally work for said company, won't say names.

2) People that will always buy everything from VN companies as long as the text is slightly readable in English and has anime boobs / anime art + japanese voices.

Also, if someone defends Sekai Project at this point I'll actually think that either they have mental disabilitities or are in a state of complete denial about how they need to burn to the ground.

Negativity stems from being in this medium too long and seeing the same shit happen over and over again or from being or becoming an old person. There are more "old" people in this community that people seem to believe.

EVN's in a general standpoint are complete and utter trash that need to be removed from this planet. The majority of them follow the same patterns and the majority of companies behind them don't fall behind on the schedule:

1) Either copy the format of Japanese VN's (why calling them EVN's then in the first place? Call them Japanesey VN's in English at this point) or generally make a theme that contains as much degeneracy as possible (I can't count the number of times I've seen the topic of "gay/trans protagonist in an even gayer/transier adventure). *Not all EVN's are like these are a very few amount are decent reads.

2) Companies that make them follow the Sekai Project mindset of doing a kickstarter as a backup plan in case they utterly fail selling it (and they will in most of the cases) so they don't suffer money loss. Stop spamming Patreons and Kickstarter campaigns, it gets boring and abusing the crowdfunding system is not the best way to gain support.

Anyways, I think that's all the ranting I'll do. Maybe I derailed a bit but whether or not that's the case we'll see it soon, as the mods like to categorize mine or any of "HMN's Crew" posts as troll in the first place.

 

TLDR: Reddit is cancer. Fuwanovel has shit mods, Sekai Project is trash, and EOPs/OELVNs can burn in a fire.

Courtesy of the Bee himself.

Saved myself and others a lot of time. :makina:

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6 hours ago, Zakamutt said:

You say "some spelling mistakes and bad grammar", I say "bad writing". If the problem really were just what you're saying, things would be different. With that said, many people actually seem to mention the typo count and not much else, so I suppose you have a point.

I still don't think fan translations should not be criticized. Actually good translators have a tendency to seek out criticism anyway.

--

I want to answer bee on one point but I gotta catch the bus to get to this lecture. Uni is hitler confirmed

 

Of course, just let it be constuctive and helpful criticism.

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Well, angry mod to come and give you "you have two warning points for trolling lmao" as you put it, @Barry Benson. Let's take a look at this gigantic wall of text, shall we. There's stuff I probably should answer for you there. 

"Community: I honestly feel like there's a mix of a lot of people and personalities in general. It feels like in general this is a "more friendly" community in a sense, it's too PC for my tastes in general, but no matter who you are you'll end up finding people to be around within here if you look hard enough (I mean, just look at my cancerous ass.) It has way more EOP's than JOP's in general and it probably lacks elitism, which shies away potential drama which could, in short, generate more conversations. Elitism is cancer, but it's a necessary cancer, and it creates discussion, compared to just accepting new people who "Have just read Doki Doki or Grisaia and they already think they'll never read anything before." JOP's are partly right when they refer to original works being better, spoiler alert, they are because translations never deliver what the author intended, and no matter how good the translator is the majority of these games have what makes them special, taken from them. ANyways, I'm derailing too much. In general, there's a broader spectrum of people here, way less than reddit, which leads to the false belief that "we" are more cohesioned, which is a lie. I've never seen such categorization and grouping as I've seen in this medium ever. Then again, I've not been to many mediums either so yeah."

 

Community, that's a thing. We exactly intend to accept people who have just read dokidoki and grisaia and not treat them like shit and talk about how they have inferior taste or something. Your "cancerous ass" is indeed constantly mildly annoying and it has gotten you in trouble before, though you yourself talk about it later. Fuwanovel was in part precisely made to break away from the old toxic community, and you're well aware of how that works. You know what doesn't make people excited to be part of a community? Going to talk about a cool game they just played and being unilaterally told they're normie garbage who should read [insert niche thing here] instead. There are things to appreciate about popular games. You know what does feel good? When you show what you like, don't get slapped for it and get slowly introduced to more underappreciated games that are in some ways like what you've read before. This whole "EOP vs JOP" thing is beyond fuwa. If people intend to go shitting on everyone else, they probably don't belong here. Which brings us to the second point. 

 

Modding: and the last point I mention falls back on the topic of modding in this website. I'll try to sum it up saying that the mod team as it is right now feels like good modding consists solely on deleting posts that are "harmful" or "incite hate." I know that there are probably other duties you have to fulfill as a mod, but as far as I'm concerned deleting posts and handing bans without reason / warning seems to be the priority now, god bless. 

Now, inb4 angry mods come and say "You have two warning posts for trolling, lmao." Firstly, I am not putting as an example my personal experiences here because my warnings were justified (TLDR; I told someone to kill himself in a post and I created troll threads personally attacking Okami.) The issue stems from things like deleting a SoU DeSukA meme with a spongebob picture in a thread that was talking about localizations or something like that, or literally deleting a post that says "Kiri rules this community" in this thread. Mods need to start discerning which posts are clearly toxic and which posts are just friendly banter. Derailing is a shit reason to hide posts and everyone derails in general at some point. Inb4 my post is derailing.

 

Moderation is significantly easier to talk about than anything else ever as far as I'm concerned, and I can answer any questions about it anyone may have. Shoot me a pm, ping me on discord, quote me in some random thread, doesn't make a difference. 

There's one big misconception you're making here. sou desuka spongebob meme or kiri shitposting isn't being hidden because it's toxic. Only a moron would ever think it's toxic. Not even you believe it's toxic though, since you correctly talk about derailing later. Yes, it's being hidden because it's spam. You know what we don't want in serious threads? Users having to scroll through pages and pages of shitty memes to discuss what they want. Now, I love shitty memes. We have a place for them, it's the coliseum of chatter. Other forums? No thank you. Doesn't matter who does it or how wholesome it is. If someone posted a cute kitten caption here it'd be hidden just the same. 

As for removing posts of people being rude assholes, yes, we do that. We will continue to do that. Friendliness has always been fuwanovel's main thing. You don't like it? Fair enough. You might want to check out other communities instead, then. I don't mean it in a bad way, it's just not what fuwa is about. Being "PC" and making a friendly environment for VN fans is the most important thing for us. So is strict moderation of serious posts. There are a lot of other communities where you can freely do whatever you want. This isn't one of them. 100% serious question, if the main things about fuwa are big points of criticism to you, why are you even here? Do you want to torture yourself? 

"I can't count the number of times I've seen the topic of "gay/trans protagonist in an even gayer/transier adventure"

Hey, here's some shitty memeing. Can't really resist it can you? It's ok though. 

As for a last thing, we assume HMN and folk are generally memeing because you are generally memeing. We do look over your posts though. 

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6 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Well, angry mod to come and give you "you have two warning points for trolling lmao" as you put it, @Barry Benson. Let's take a look at this gigantic wall of text, shall we. There's stuff I probably should answer for you there. 

"Community: I honestly feel like there's a mix of a lot of people and personalities in general. It feels like in general this is a "more friendly" community in a sense, it's too PC for my tastes in general, but no matter who you are you'll end up finding people to be around within here if you look hard enough (I mean, just look at my cancerous ass.) It has way more EOP's than JOP's in general and it probably lacks elitism, which shies away potential drama which could, in short, generate more conversations. Elitism is cancer, but it's a necessary cancer, and it creates discussion, compared to just accepting new people who "Have just read Doki Doki or Grisaia and they already think they'll never read anything before." JOP's are partly right when they refer to original works being better, spoiler alert, they are because translations never deliver what the author intended, and no matter how good the translator is the majority of these games have what makes them special, taken from them. ANyways, I'm derailing too much. In general, there's a broader spectrum of people here, way less than reddit, which leads to the false belief that "we" are more cohesioned, which is a lie. I've never seen such categorization and grouping as I've seen in this medium ever. Then again, I've not been to many mediums either so yeah."

 

Community, that's a thing. We exactly intend to accept people who have just read dokidoki and grisaia and not treat them like shit and talk about how they have inferior taste or something. Your "cancerous ass" is indeed constantly mildly annoying and it has gotten you in trouble before, though you yourself talk about it later. Fuwanovel was in part precisely made to break away from the old toxic community, and you're well aware of how that works. You know what doesn't make people excited to be part of a community? Going to talk about a cool game they just played and being unilaterally told they're normie garbage who should read [insert niche thing here] instead. There are things to appreciate about popular games. You know what does feel good? When you show what you like, don't get slapped for it and get slowly introduced to more underappreciated games that are in some ways like what you've read before. This whole "EOP vs JOP" thing is beyond fuwa. If people intend to go shitting on everyone else, they probably don't belong here. Which brings us to the second point. 

 

Modding: and the last point I mention falls back on the topic of modding in this website. I'll try to sum it up saying that the mod team as it is right now feels like good modding consists solely on deleting posts that are "harmful" or "incite hate." I know that there are probably other duties you have to fulfill as a mod, but as far as I'm concerned deleting posts and handing bans without reason / warning seems to be the priority now, god bless. 

Now, inb4 angry mods come and say "You have two warning posts for trolling, lmao." Firstly, I am not putting as an example my personal experiences here because my warnings were justified (TLDR; I told someone to kill himself in a post and I created troll threads personally attacking Okami.) The issue stems from things like deleting a SoU DeSukA meme with a spongebob picture in a thread that was talking about localizations or something like that, or literally deleting a post that says "Kiri rules this community" in this thread. Mods need to start discerning which posts are clearly toxic and which posts are just friendly banter. Derailing is a shit reason to hide posts and everyone derails in general at some point. Inb4 my post is derailing.

 

Moderation is significantly easier to talk about than anything else ever as far as I'm concerned, and I can answer any questions about it anyone may have. Shoot me a pm, ping me on discord, quote me in some random thread, doesn't make a difference. 

There's one big misconception you're making here. sou desuka spongebob meme or kiri shitposting isn't being hidden because it's toxic. Only a moron would ever think it's toxic. Not even you believe it's toxic though, since you correctly talk about derailing later. Yes, it's being hidden because it's spam. You know what we don't want in serious threads? Users having to scroll through pages and pages of shitty memes to discuss what they want. Now, I love shitty memes. We have a place for them, it's the coliseum of chatter. Other forums? No thank you. Doesn't matter who does it or how wholesome it is. If someone posted a cute kitten caption here it'd be hidden just the same. 

As for removing posts of people being rude assholes, yes, we do that. We will continue to do that. Friendliness has always been fuwanovel's main thing. You don't like it? Fair enough. You might want to check out other communities instead, then. I don't mean it in a bad way, it's just not what fuwa is about. Being "PC" and making a friendly environment for VN fans is the most important thing for us. So is strict moderation of serious posts. There are a lot of other communities where you can freely do whatever you want. This isn't one of them. 100% serious question, if the main things about fuwa are big points of criticism to you, why are you even here? Do you want to torture yourself? 

"I can't count the number of times I've seen the topic of "gay/trans protagonist in an even gayer/transier adventure"

Hey, here's some shitty memeing. Can't really resist it can you? It's ok though. 

As for a last thing, we assume HMN and folk are generally memeing because you are generally memeing. We do look over your posts though. 

Only read the first part, but i agree on the cancer that is PC. PC in itself is an oxymoron of magnificent magnitude, which easily sour communities and social circles.

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24 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Community, that's a thing. We exactly intend to accept people who have just read dokidoki and grisaia and not treat them like shit and talk about how they have inferior taste or something. Your "cancerous ass" is indeed constantly mildly annoying and it has gotten you in trouble before, though you yourself talk about it later. Fuwanovel was in part precisely made to break away from the old toxic community, and you're well aware of how that works. You know what doesn't make people excited to be part of a community? Going to talk about a cool game they just played and being unilaterally told they're normie garbage who should read [insert niche thing here] instead. There are things to appreciate about popular games. You know what does feel good? When you show what you like, don't get slapped for it and get slowly introduced to more underappreciated games that are in some ways like what you've read before. This whole "EOP vs JOP" thing is beyond fuwa. If people intend to go shitting on everyone else, they probably don't belong here. Which brings us to the second point. 

You say this, but then you immediately assume this one paragraph later:

26 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

"I can't count the number of times I've seen the topic of "gay/trans protagonist in an even gayer/transier adventure"

Hey, here's some shitty memeing. Can't really resist it can you? It's ok though. 

Isn't this an inclusive community that accepts all opinions? I wasn't memeing here and I legitimately don¡t like gay or transexual topic or characters in VN's. I think they are "degenerate" like I mention in the post before. It's my opinion bro, not trolling. Then again, proves my point of how mods don't know when to discern whether we're trolling or just being serious about these things.

Then again, won't refute your points because in general you're right when it comes to Fuwanovel being more focused on friendliness I guess. No problem there bro.

28 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Moderation is significantly easier to talk about than anything else ever as far as I'm concerned, and I can answer any questions about it anyone may have. Shoot me a pm, ping me on discord, quote me in some random thread, doesn't make a difference. 

There's one big misconception you're making here. sou desuka spongebob meme or kiri shitposting isn't being hidden because it's toxic. Only a moron would ever think it's toxic. Not even you believe it's toxic though, since you correctly talk about derailing later. Yes, it's being hidden because it's spam. You know what we don't want in serious threads? Users having to scroll through pages and pages of shitty memes to discuss what they want. Now, I love shitty memes. We have a place for them, it's the coliseum of chatter. Other forums? No thank you. Doesn't matter who does it or how wholesome it is. If someone posted a cute kitten caption here it'd be hidden just the same. 

As for removing posts of people being rude assholes, yes, we do that. We will continue to do that. Friendliness has always been fuwanovel's main thing. You don't like it? Fair enough. You might want to check out other communities instead, then. I don't mean it in a bad way, it's just not what fuwa is about. Being "PC" and making a friendly environment for VN fans is the most important thing for us. So is strict moderation of serious posts. There are a lot of other communities where you can freely do whatever you want. This isn't one of them. 100% serious question, if the main things about fuwa are big points of criticism to you, why are you even here? Do you want to torture yourself? 

Thanks for the offer for mod classes, but since I'll never be a mod anywhere I'll just have to pass on them. About the "pages full of memes" you're, in my opinion, overblowing it, but at some point I do admit that it got out of control. I think things have calmed down now though, so no idea about the fuss on that aspect.

As a last pointer, to respond to your serious question (implying that you're not being serious about the rest of the post?) I stay here because I like it more than reddit and because the friends I've made over the time are here. I don't like the core of fuwa (if you consider the modding policies to be "the core" of this website in the first place) but that doesn't mean that I'll stay here because, in the end, I like it more than other places.

Extra easter eggs:

- "Only a moron would ever think it's toxic. Not even you believe it's toxic though, since you correctly talk about derailing later." - Low-key calling me a moron is rude, bro.

- "Now, I love shitty memes. We have a place for them, it's the coliseum of chatter." - The last time we tried to shitpost in the coliseum of chatter (where shitposting is supposed to happen) everyone involved in it got warnings and temporary bans.

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