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The State of VNs


Zalor

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2 hours ago, EmailAddress said:

I find it silly how some people expect literature quality writing in porn games.

If you dont read vn's exclusively for porn then your comment makes absolutely no sense. You could also say "i find it silly how some people expect a serious story in porn games"

Edited by Stormwolf
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32 minutes ago, Zalor said:

And it is basically this, (I'm paraphrasing) "Every line should have a purpose". Too often VNs are bloated with way more text and even entire scenes or routes that are unnecessary. And this definitely distracts from the core of the work.

As I understand it, that's some way to say you don't like slice of life :leecher:. Neither do I, with some few exceptions here and there. But lo and behold, I do think that those exceptions are really important. With time I also came to appreciate what slice of life could be good for. Even if you don't see the purpose of a scene in the context of the story, it's there for the reader. It could serve as a way to grow attached to the characters as you would while spending time with them IRL. That's not to say that this can't be achieved while actually developing a plot, but I do think that due to the immersive nature of VNs as long as you actually care for the characters and the dialogue is witty enough, it can be pretty enjoyable.

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39 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

If you dont read vn's exclusively for porn then your comment makes absolutely no sense. You could also say "i find it silly how some people expect a serious story in porn games"

Don't feed the troll mate, don't feed It.

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10 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

Don't feed the troll mate, don't feed It.

The old known troll who's been on and off for the past few months and was now making alt accounts, presumably to circumvent main account punishment. 

It's derailing the thread, but IP-banned. Let's hope this is enough of that guy. 

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1 hour ago, Zalor said:

Eventually as you read, I managed to figure it out. Glad I managed to clear things up a bit. 

We're always here if you want your ideas to be shut on and possibly refined through borderline-abusive criticism. ;)

More seriously speaking, I have a lot of respect for your approach to VNs, but honestly, if I would risk constant disappointment though my contact with some medium, it would drive me insane. At some point, I would most likely have to avoid it completely. In perspective, having a shitty taste like mine and being able to casualy enjoy all kind of VNs seems like a blessing of sorts. :wacko:

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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21 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

We're always here if you want your ideas to be shut on and possibly refined through borderline-abusive criticism. ;)

More seriously speaking, I have a lot of respect for your approach to VNs, but honestly, if I would risk constant disappointment though my contact with some medium, it would drive me insane. At some point, I would most likely have to avoid it completely. In perspective, having a shitty taste like mine and being able to casualy enjoy all kind of VNs seems like a blessing of sorts. :wacko:

"Ignorance is a bleassing" like the wise say.

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I believe the quoted post from 4chan is both intruguing and silly.
As an indie book publisher that has been recently been researching the VN "industry", I think it's true that a self-publishing writer could possibly find a better chance to success by working on a VN, but only if he has PLENTY of time, money and/or programming/artistic/marketing skills. It's easy to point at DDLC and say "Hey, I could have done that easily", but in most case it would be a blatant lie since, as already stated, DDLC is both clever and well crafted. Probably the same applies to Sakura games (haven't tried them).
I strongly believe that Visual Novels have a lot of potential which hasn't been exploited yet, but if someone just wants to make some quick cash I would strongly recommend to just publish erotica ebooks (that aren't actually that easy to sell if you don't know what you're doing or have no niche to target, but that's another story) and stay the fuck away from VNs as of now.

Edited by Frullo NDE
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In fact, Sakura games are not that bad. Even if you take Sakura Beach 1, which I think was the very first entry, the visuals and technology are good. It's just that the story is simply not engaging in any way, presenting overused tropes that lead to soft-porn scenes. It's not my thing really, but for people who really love (or still tolerate...) those tropes, and people wanting some "stimulation", it can work, as the sales proves.

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3 minutes ago, Frullo NDE said:

(...)Probably the same applies to Sakura games (haven't tried them).

Plz no.

I know you haven't Read them yet, but, the Sakura Series is shovelware, It is trash. 

It helped strenght a lot of stigmas of OELVN and even the "VN=Blant Porn" steryotype.

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Just now, Okarin said:

If the Sakura series is shovelware, because they churn out games like mad... then what is Idea Factory with NepNep and others? And still those are very well regarded. You get memes instead of soft porn, but it is still considered shovelware within JRPGs.

You have point.

But did they help create steryotypes to the JRPG genre? Are their CEO being acussed of Blackmail (can be false ofc, but, still)?

It is inovenssive shovelware. 

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5 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

Plz no.

I know you haven't Read them yet, but, the Sakura Series is shovelware, It is trash. 

It helped strenght a lot of stigmas of OELVN and even the "VN=Blant Porn" steryotype.

Well I lurk around here a lot so I can imagine that. Also I have no will to try them lol.
But even if badly written, their "presentation value" is probably much higher that what an average joe could put out by messing with Ren'py on his evenings.

Edited by Frullo NDE
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1 minute ago, Frullo NDE said:

Well I lurk around here a lot so I can imagine that. Also I have no will to try them lol.
But even if badly written, their "presentation value" is probably much higher that what an average joe could put out by messing with Ren'py on his evenings.

True that, Sakura art has value, 'cause the artists are talented.

Though there are some gems made on ren'py...

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1 minute ago, SeniorBlitz said:

You have point.

But did they help create steryotypes to the JRPG genre? Are their CEO being acussed of Blackmail (can be false ofc, but, still)?

It is inovenssive shovelware. 

That's just because the Sakura games are cringey, while NepNep is not. It may not be your cup of tea, but they are still legit games.

Still, I'm sure that there are lots of people looking for what both Sakura and NepNep have to offer. That's the thing. We easily consider Sakura games trash, but how widespread is our view?

That notwithstanding the great amounts of people who have Sakura games in their inventory and haven't even touched them. I have seen some cases like that.

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17 minutes ago, Okarin said:

That's just because the Sakura games are cringey, while NepNep is not. It may not be your cup of tea, but they are still legit games.

Still, I'm sure that there are lots of people looking for what both Sakura and NepNep have to offer. That's the thing. We easily consider Sakura games trash, but how widespread is our view?

True that.

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7 hours ago, Zalor said:

Yeah, I totally agree that dialogue and internal monologues are the skeletal structure of VN writing. I have nothing wrong with this (in fact, I think it allows for a very immersive narrative). But there is a standard to writing that I think applies to both mediums. And it is basically this, (I'm paraphrasing) "Every line should have a purpose". Too often VNs are bloated with way more text and even entire scenes or routes that are unnecessary. And this definitely distracts from the core of the work. Even one of my favorite VNs has this significant problem, Subarashiki Hibi. Don't get me wrong, its a great VN, but it did drag out a lot on certain parts.

  Reveal hidden contents

And we really didn't need that bicycle pissing scene.

But then there are VNs (Saya no uta, Narcissu, Swan Song, etc to give a few example) that I think do follow that rule of having every line being relevant. Either by building the situation, the setting, perspective, characterization/character development, philosophy and advancement of the plot. In this way I think you can compare books and VNs. Also, its bonus points if the prose and style of writing is pretty. But I think that's a little too subjective. And in VNs I think stylistic prose intrinsically matters less because art and music is there, but it can always be a nice touch imo.

You know, I kind of agree with that, in a broad sense. Though, ironically the best written VNs in that sense would be nukige and purely comedic VNs (and, probably, moege). Every line there actually has a clear purpose: to lead to the next h-scene and have the player aroused in the process, or to entertain the player with every line, respectively. With plot-focused VNs... yeah, it's complicated. First of all, I'm definitely not against including slice-of-life scenes in a more serious plot, even though technically they are semi-pointless. Well, @Thyndd more or less said it in his post, so I'm not going to repeat it. At the same time, there's always a limit of how much slice-of-life should be there. Not every person is patient enough to sit through 20 hours of shitty comedy to get to the good parts. And, well, it's also true that technically you're supposed to develop the characters during the plot, not before the plot stars. I'm not sure how true it is in terms of VNs (for example, I simply can't imagine how Muv-Luv would work without Extra) so, maybe, it's just another method to do the same things.

On the other hand, I agree that this scene from SubaHibi is completely random and probably shouldn't be there in the first place. Though, it's an h-scene, and we all know what its real purpose was. :makina: SubaHibi for me is a good example of how a needlessly fetishistic H-scene might actually hurt the story (and don't take me wrong, I love SubaHibi). Actually, the sex in It's My Own Invention actually makes pretty good sense to me: it shows well how completely messed up in the head a certain character is. My biggest problem is with Looking Glass Insects.

Spoiler

First of all, I like this chapter, and it's one of my favorite in the game. When you start it, you already know that Zakuro is going to commit suicide in the end, and seeing how she actually goes from the happy scenes with "Mamiya" in the beginning to a complete despair in the end is one of my parts in this VN. On the other hand... do the h-scenes really have to be so fetishistic? I know it's there for porn, but still. Even if they inserted a simple rape scene there, it would work much better. Keep it short. You don't need a steam of porn to break a girl like that, to make it seem to her that her life is already over.

I don't know. I guess, I have to accept that these scenes exist simply for porn and see them as such, but I'm still looking for a meaning for some reason. :amane:

So, in general, I do agree with you that VNs tend to lack substance sometimes, and they do things much more slowly than they are probably should be done, but there are too many details to speak of. Ultimately, I'm not dissatisfied with the current state of VNs to the point where I stop enjoying them. There's still enough good things they bring to me, and I'm willing to bear with things I don't particularly like. Well, if it changes at some point, I will find a new hobby, that's simple. :makina:

Edited by Dreamysyu
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43 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

You have point.

But did they help create steryotypes to the JRPG genre? Are their CEO being acussed of Blackmail (can be false ofc, but, still)?

It is inovenssive shovelware. 

Sakura is also inoffensive because it's true. Here's what's coming next for VNs. See for yourself, I guarantee over two thirds of it is lazy, pretty bad porn.

http://egs.omaera.org/~ap2/ero/toukei_kaiseki/toukei_hatubaibi.php

That's as much part of the genre as everything else in it, and there's no reason to pretend it's not. VNs are cheaply made porn without engaging stories that exist only for a specific audience to pop a boner. It's good that people know it, because if they plan on reading a lot of VNs, they are most definitely going to read a lot of that whether they want to or not. 

VNs are also other things, and it's a pity those things aren't popular, sure, but there's no reason to run away from the most common type of game out there. Sometimes games based solely around sex appeal manage to have an engaging story, or nice characters or whatever, that's not the norm for those games though. 

People have this weird stigma around pure sex appeal. Seikon no qwaser is edgy porn for 12 year olds and it's the best anime ever made tbh. 

I believe more than anyone else that VNs are a medium that's already as good as it could be as far as writing goes. Can go on and on for days about why moege are 11/10 genius  writing that pretentious academics can't understand, but you also gotta call things for what they are. I embrace Sakura as a representative of visual novels. 

Never forget, low-quality porn is how our genre started and how it'll end.

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1 minute ago, Kaguya said:

Sakura is also inoffensive because it's true. Here's what's coming next for VNs. See for yourself, I guarantee over two thirds of it is lazy, pretty bad porn.

http://egs.omaera.org/~ap2/ero/toukei_kaiseki/toukei_hatubaibi.php

That's as much part of the genre as everything else in it, and there's no reason to pretend it's not. VNs are cheaply made porn without engaging stories that exist only for a specific audience to pop a boner. It's good that people know it, because if they plan on reading a lot of VNs, they are most definitely going to read a lot of that whether they want to or not. 

VNs are also other things, and it's a pity those things aren't popular, sure, but there's no reason to run away from the most common type of game out there. Sometimes games based solely around sex appeal manage to have an engaging story, or nice characters or whatever, that's not the norm for those games though. 

People have this weird stigma around pure sex appeal. Seikon no qwaser is edgy porn for 12 year olds and it's the best anime ever made tbh. 

I believe more than anyone else that VNs are a medium that's already as good as it could be as far as writing goes. Can go on and on for days about why moege are 11/10 genius  writing that pretentious academics can't understand, but sometimes you gotta call it for what it is. I embrace Sakura as a representative of visual novels. 

Not gonna Deny that Sakura Games are VNs and that most VNs are Nukige, what I meant by "Inoffensive" is that it didn't have as much of a repercussion as the winged cloud VNs.

It wasn't my intention to pretend that it's not, so sorry if I passed that impression.

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8 hours ago, Zalor said:

Yeah, I totally agree that dialogue and internal monologues are the skeletal structure of VN writing. I have nothing wrong with this (in fact, I think it allows for a very immersive narrative). But there is a standard to writing that I think applies to both mediums. And it is basically this, (I'm paraphrasing) "Every line should have a purpose".

I follow a slightly different variation of that which is "scenes should move the story forward" but it's essentially the same thing. I agree 100% :) 

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Your hands that gently apart from your favorite game are certainly warm, wherever they are
The voice that tells me what to do – I can't disobey it

My body that comes from the shadow is breathing faintly
And in this space between these moments, red and golden colors are dying your favorite game

That’s right, I am continuously struggling moebuta
Destroying everything I touch
I don’t have time to take a break
I'll be coming
And so below the sky of the east brightly burns my heart
I go drunk on the fetishes incarnated there
Within my heart I hide away the lies that I like peeing girls

Lolis are getting their menarche
But still, I will not stop living on forward
Even as the yuzu and sagapura cast their overlapping shadows on me

That’s right, I am forever hunting moebuta
Even though I know not why I still face forward
I don’t know even how to fight back
I’ll be coming
And so beneath the sky split in half by the moegods
I dream of days when I will be finally able to play games without pee and menarche

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1 minute ago, Kiriririri said:

Your hands that gently apart from your favorite game are certainly warm, wherever they are
The voice that tells me what to do – I can't disobey it

My body that comes from the shadow is breathing faintly
And in this space between these moments, red and golden colors are dying your favorite game

That’s right, I am continuously struggling moebuta
Destroying everything I touch
I don’t have time to take a break
I'll be coming
And so below the sky of the east brightly burns my heart
I go drunk on the fetishes incarnated there
Within my heart I hide away the lies that I like peeing girls

Lolis are getting their menarche
But still, I will not stop living on forward
Even as the yuzu and sagapura cast their overlapping shadows on me

That’s right, I am forever hunting moebuta
Even though I know not why I still face forward
I don’t know even how to fight back
I’ll be coming
And so beneath the sky split in half by the moegods
I dream of days when I will be finally able to play games without pee and menarche

Beautiful.

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5 hours ago, Kaguya said:

VNs are cheaply made porn without engaging stories that exist only for a specific audience to pop a boner.

Considering the average professionally made porn movie only costs about 20,000 to 30,000 to make (the really high quality stuff is anything over 100,000 and Pirates 2 stagnetti revenge is probably the highest budgeted porn movie of all time at 8 million), VNs aren't that cheaply made :P 

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7 minutes ago, Darklord Rooke said:

Considering the average professionally made porn movie only costs about 20,000 to 30,000 to make (the really high quality stuff is anything over 100,000 and Pirates 2 stagnetti revenge is probably the highest budgeted porn movie of all time at 8 million), VNs aren't that cheaply made :P 

Hey, a lot of VNs only take the time of talented japanese youngsters and nothing else to make, heh. 

Cheap probably isn't the word for it, you get me though. 

I'm pretty fond of nukige all in all, applaud the companies making them for doing god's work. 

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I think this is a super interesting topic.

I like to write pretty dark and serious stuff myself, but I don't always think it's a fun read. Really good fiction (in any form) can be amazing, but sometimes you just want light and fluffy, or easy and relaxing literature. Complicated isn't always better.

Most recently, when it came to writing stories for Ivy Fetish (my partner) to voice, I came to realize that she would benefit from a much lighter, young adult type of style. She finds it easier and more fun to get into.

Overall, I think VN fans are pretty awesome and sweet people. A lot of times we're willing to overlook little imperfections because we understand that someone is trying to create and tell a story. Sometimes it's a little detail or a bit of style or some great art that draws us to a title. It's really subjective.

Thanks again for the topic, and all this amazing discussion. Was a really fun read over coffee on a lazy morning. <3

Edited by arosia
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