The State of VNs

[Zalor]

I was browsing the Literature Board of 4chan earlier today, and I found an interesting post that happened to be about VNs. Here is what the guy posted

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Honestly the aspiring writers on this board that moan about getting rejected for publication would probably get fellated to death by videogame journalists if they wrapped their writing in some minimal amount of interactivity and presented it as a video game or visual novel or whatever the fuck. You have all these manchildren that want their shitty hobby legitimized as "literate", you have people making scary amounts of dosh writing really crappy pornographic vns on patreon, the possibilities seem huge if you're willing to suffer a moderate to total loss of dignity and hey, you can't have much dignity left if you post here.

I think this guy makes a good point. The point being that with books and literature dying in the modern world, video games and VNs are on the rise in popularity. If decent writers focused their talents on this new medium of VNs, their writing could actually be recognized. Furthermore, when compared to the crappy state of VNs now. Even if a short story/novel writer is mediocre, he would still probably be better than 95% of current VN writers. 

But then there is another issue. While pretentious "manchildren" (as he puts it) would eat up VNs that have decent writing, most of these "manchildren" are not the current audience and market for VNs. The current market for VNs are people who want porn or memes. To elaborate, here is part of my post in reply:

Quote

The risk of doing this with Visual Novels though, is that the ones that actually are decently written, tend to get almost no recognition. But the ones that are pure shit that either sell out to some fetish, or are edgy simply for the sake of being edgy, those are the ones that VN readers typically pay for. Want proof?

Narcissu is a legitimately well written and well translated visual novel that is free. Its Steam version is also free. Yet despite its good writing (as well as excellent music), the VNs that get recognition are stuff like Sakura Spirit (porn) or Doki Doki Literature Club (meaningless edge for memes). Meanwhile Narcissu is largely ignored. Same case can be made with Symphonic Rain.

In other words, good writing in VNs is not rewarded by most VN consumers. Instead, most VN consumers will mindlessly throw their money at anything that satisfies their lust for porn, moe, or edge. And honestly, this is a big reason why I don't really get along with most VN fans. I genuinely like well written stories above everything else (hence why most of what I read these days are actual books), but I see a lot of potential with VNs. I am that "manchild" that the Anon was talking about who wants VNs to become a more literary medium. And there are some that I think have achieved this level that are criminally underrated. But most VN fans that I see, and this includes a lot of people I have noticed on Fuwa as well, seem completely happy with the modern state of VNs. The modern state of VNs being a sole focus on producing and localizing moe eye candy, edge, or literal porn. 

[Mr Poltroon]

I am afraid I have no solace to offer you. I am one such person that is entirely comfortable with things as they are for the moment.

This doesn't stop me from thinking games such as Symphonic Rain are absolutely stellar, but not all can be like it, and if they all were, I'm sure I'd also enjoy them less. I am positive that games which attempt to weave a deeper narrative or tackle less favoured themes will never die out, and I don't really need their amount to significantly increase.

Most people don't prefer those games. I'm not sure what exactly you're asking here, even? Should VNs completely change to better suit your tastes? Though this is somewhat of a mean thing to say, given that the medium is currently well attuned to my own.

The usual recommendation is that one should pursue that which one likes. If VNs as they are now do not suit your fancy, I would sadly recommend you look somewhere else that would better satisfy you, instead of... lamenting, I guess. Or are there enough titles you like out there and you're instead referring to the fact that the world at large does not think the same way you do? I'm afraid that happens quite often. A real bummer, really. Who'd have guessed most people used Shift to capitalise letters?

...Perhaps I've failed to grasp the intent of this thread.

[Thyndd]

Yeah, sure, let's talk about the current state of literature, where 50 shades of grey and Twilight are best-sellers among youngsters... fuck off.

Honestly, that guy COULD have a point, but he doesn't. For one, because he comes across as despective and rude, thus not willing to attend to reasons. I can't stand snobism.

There are badly written VNs and they appeal to part of the public, duh. The same could be said about any other medium.

[onorub]

From seeing all the indie VNs from the renai forums that get brushed aside, i don't see pro writers that are strange to the medium get any significant recognition. I think i can count on my fingers the amount of people that care about Christina Love on fuwa, for example.

I'd also argue that DDLC became famous for its' production values while Sakura Spirit became famous for its' cringe factor.

[Plk_Lesiak]

I have to fully agree with Thyndd. There's a good rule saying that "90% of every medium/genre is shit" and I'm pretty sure it also applies to stuff created by people active on 4chan's literary board. I also don't have any confidence that someone who's able to write a decent novel will automatically be able to write a good VN script. It's a different medium, requiring different skills and approach. What that first post represents is simply an elitist delusion of an "actual writer" frustrated that mass audience does what mass audience always did, rather than appreciate his awesome craftsmanship.

And there's a lot of niches within VN audience, I don't think I've seen many "greatly written, but completely unappreciated titles". Especially with the still small westers market, if something is really good, it will find its way to the consumers, regardless of the masses of people consuming cheap, trashy porn VNs. Also, DDLC is not an empty meme vessel. It's a well-crafted and well-though-out VN, made by an author with a lot of talent and passion for the medium. Feel free to hate it, if you have to, but don't try to put it in one row with Sakura games, it's just distasteful. 

EDIT: And just as a sidenote, Narcissu was downloaded by close to 400k people on Steam. That's just 70k less than Sakura Spirit and it's a game about dying of terminal illness (which is the reason I'm postponing reading it for years and years now). How exactly is it ignored?

Edited February 18, 2018 by Plk_Lesiak

[Kaguya]

What even is good writing. 

What's most popular for VNs are power fantasies and sex appeal, sure, but are those things worth less than other types of writing? 

Because if they are it's not just VNs, power fantasies and sex appeal sell significantly more in all types of media, especially ones targeted at a younger audience, which western otaku mostly are since anime has only gained real popularity in the last decade over here and they gained that popularity precisely with kids and teens who started out by watching weeb stuff on tv. 

 Then there's also differences in how stories are told. You pick a random person that mostly consumes western media, and you know exactly what anime,  LN or VN they'd like. It's going to be stuff like fate stay night and zero, saya no uta, steins gate, legend of the galactic heroes and whatnot, because those stories are written like western media.  

I tdon't like western media. I don't need more tightly paced show-not-tell dramatic stuff with 3deep5u themes and knowing exactly what type of plot twists are coming and when. Eastern storytelling is different (even when it's doing the whole 3deep5u thing) I enjoy that. 

The predominant western writing styles and priorities are boring and shitty to me and I want it to stay as far away from me as they possibly can. Think a lot of weebs feel that way tbh. 

[Thyndd]

7 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

What even is good writing. 

What's most popular for VNs are power fantasies and sex appeal, sure, but are those things worth less than other types of writing? 

Because if they are it's not just VNs, power fantasies and sex appeal sell significantly more in all types of media, especially ones targeted at a younger audience, which western otaku mostly are since anime has only gained real popularity in the last decade over here and they gained that popularity precisely with kids and teens who started out by watching weeb stuff on tv. 

 Then there's also differences in how stories are old. You pick a random person that mostly consumes western media, and you know exactly what anime,  LN or VN they'd like. It's going to be stuff like fate stay night and zero, saya no uta, steins gate, legend of the galactic heroes and whatnot, because those stories are written like western media.  

I tdon't like western media. I don't need more tightly paced show-not-tell dramatic stuff with 3deep5u themes and knowing exactly what type of plot twists are coming and when. Eastern storytelling is different (even when it's doing the whole 3deep5u thing) I enjoy that. 

The predominant western writing styles and priorities are boring and shitty to me and I want it to stay as far away from me as they possibly can. Think a lot of weebs feel that way tbh. 

Admittedly personal taste plays a big role. But still, I think more often than not you can recognize good story-telling when it's in front of you, even if the thematic content of the story itself is not so appealing for you.

And I wouldn't say it's worth less or more. It's like comparing apples with potatoes, they are two completely different beasts with two very different purposes. When it's fair to say that you are in front of a poorly written story is when it clearly is attemping to actually tell one and fails in one way or another, in my opinion.

[Kaguya]

7 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Admittedly personal taste plays a big role. But still, I think more often than not you can recognize good story-telling when it's in front of you, even if the thematic content of the story itself is not so appealing for you.

And I wouldn't say it's worth less or more. It's like comparing apples with potatoes, they are two completely different beasts with two very different purposes. When it's fair to say that you are in front of a poorly written story is when it clearly is attemping to actually tell one and fails in one way or another, in my opinion.

The point is that a lot of what people criticize as being bad writing in VNs are just things they don't understand the appeal of. Wild tonal shifts, very slow-paced comfortable happy slice of life that's not centered around jokes, a melting pot of chaotic confliciting themes and ideas, tons of description, emotional surrealism, the silent MC, etc. 

Then you get all these hack 4chan writers jerking each other off by saying "I could totally write that and make a fortune" while they don't even understand how to make those story traits work and what they're going for, both for videogame and VN writing. 

I don't think western storytelling is bad, I just don't like it. The people who actually make a point to say that all of the best things about VNs are VN writers being incompetent though... Not sure whether I should laugh or cry at it. 

[Guest]

Not much to say here, all of the above posts said everything that I was going to say xoD (with the exception of the dislike of western writing, I like that).

Though yeah the "point" Anon made was worded in a very snob way...

Edited February 18, 2018 by Guest

[RedK]

1 hour ago, Thyndd said:

Yeah, sure, let's talk about the current state of literature, where 50 shades of grey and Twilight are best-sellers among youngsters... fuck off.

Honestly, that guy COULD have a point, but he doesn't. For one, because he comes across as despective and rude, thus not willing to attend to reasons. I can't stand snobism.

There are badly written VNs and they appeal to part of the public, duh. The same could be said about any other medium.

Fifty shades and Twilight are kami-books tho.

[Guest]

Just now, RedK said:

Fifty shades and Twilight are kami-books tho.

They are still (debatable ofc) trash made for angst teens and\or young adults, or made for pure shock factor (Fifty Shades of Grey) in a way...

[Plk_Lesiak]

2 hours ago, SeniorBlitz said:

They are still (debatable ofc) trash made for angst teens and\or young adults, or made for pure shock factor (Fifty Shades of Grey) in a way...

Fifty Shades of Grey is literally bad fan-fiction. Slightly edited to insert blatant product placement and remove all the leftover Twilight references. I don't think anyone argues that it's good, only that it's entertaining. :>

But there's another good point to make here - the fact something is bad doesn't mean you can't enjoy reading/watching it and discussing it with others. That's another problem with the snobbish approach to media, inability to understand that people's enjoyment is not in any strict way connected to definitions of good writing/art conceived by literature professors. ;p

Edited February 18, 2018 by Plk_Lesiak

[MaggieROBOT]

Lesiak and Mr Poltroon said most of what I wanted to say, but I think I can add a bit more.

Mostly... since when we can only enjoy a VN if it have stellar writing? I really enjoyed playing DDLC, the meta aspect was done really well, you can see how much care was put in the making of that game, there's some good messages buried there even too, it was a super fun read for me! It was not a masterpiece, but I don't regret one bit the time I spent with it.

I also gave good ratings for VNs in VNDB because the h-scenes were good, the bad endings were fun, above all the experience were good! And I'm sorry, I doubt I would ever want to read Narcissu because terminal illness isn't my cup of tea, it's really is a heavy topic, and other people surely agree.

Of course, I'm all in for more serious story driven VNs, they are my favorite, but those others have their place too. Except shovelware stuff, those can burn.

[EastCoastDrifter]

1 hour ago, Kaguya said:

The point is that a lot of what people criticize as being bad writing in VNs are just things they don't understand the appeal of. Wild tonal shifts, very slow-paced comfortable happy slice of life that's not centered around jokes, a melting pot of chaotic confliciting themes and ideas, tons of description, emotional surrealism, the silent MC, etc. 

This is basically the difference between western writing and Japanese writing. Western writing is more concise and to-the-point, while Japanese writing thrives on inconsistency because there's some artistic merit to it.  Simply put, most western readers are either baffled by or don't like Japanese writing because it doesn't follow a consistent story path that they expect them to follow.  Since the majority of VNs are from Japan, naturally, they follow the Japanese writing formula.  A lot of OELVNs I've seen are created as a counter-response to this in order to make them more like western literature, simply because it's what westerners are used to.

With that being said, since the post you quoted is from 4chan, it's best to take it with a grain of .

Edited February 18, 2018 by EastCoastDrifter

[xGreyHound]

3 hours ago, Zalor said:

I was browsing the Literature Board of 4chan earlier today, and I found an interesting post that happened to be about VNs. Here is what the guy posted

I think this guy makes a good point. The point being that with books and literature dying in the modern world, video games and VNs are on the rise in popularity. If decent writers focused their talents on this new medium of VNs, their writing could actually be recognized. Furthermore, when compared to the crappy state of VNs now. Even if a short story/novel writer is mediocre, he would still probably be better than 95% of current VN writers. 

But then there is another issue. While pretentious "manchildren" (as he puts it) would eat up VNs that have decent writing, most of these "manchildren" are not the current audience and market for VNs. The current market for VNs are people who want porn or memes. To elaborate, here is part of my post in reply:

In other words, good writing in VNs is not rewarded by most VN consumers. Instead, most VN consumers will mindlessly throw their money at anything that satisfies their lust for porn, moe, or edge. And honestly, this is a big reason why I don't really get along with most VN fans. I genuinely like well written stories above everything else (hence why most of what I read these days are actual books), but I see a lot of potential with VNs. I am that "manchild" that the Anon was talking about who wants VNs to become a more literary medium. And there are some that I think have achieved this level that are criminally underrated. But most VN fans that I see, and this includes a lot of people I have noticed on Fuwa as well, seem completely happy with the modern state of VNs. The modern state of VNs being a sole focus on producing and localizing moe eye candy, edge, or literal porn. 

I haven't read enough VN's to really go either way. I like a well written story though, I can always get behind one of those. 

[Okarin]

3 hours ago, Thyndd said:

Yeah, sure, let's talk about the current state of literature, where 50 shades of grey and Twilight are best-sellers among youngsters... fuck off.

Honestly, that guy COULD have a point, but he doesn't. For one, because he comes across as despective and rude, thus not willing to attend to reasons. I can't stand snobism.

There are badly written VNs and they appeal to part of the public, duh. The same could be said about any other medium.

It's like that with everything. Like, in some parts of the world, top-selling videogames are always FIFA and Call of Duty. One has to accept that.

About DDLC, it's by no means a masterpiece (though it has enjoyed a wild success), but it's well done and fresh (probably some other untranslated VN has tried something similar, but here in the West we don't know it). No need to be head over heels about the game, but no need either to bash it. It sure made my Halloween.

[Yuuko]

I like reading fan fiction so fuck me

[Arcadeotic]

Should I look through visual novels from the same perspective as, say, books? Hell no.

Book only has the story as its sole marketable point, while visual novels please three out of five basic human senses; there's more ground to cover.

While I agree that visual novels' stories are much shallower than books', I can't say the same when I compare them to TV-series or even movies. Should some cookie-cutter moege be better than a 100th rehashed sitcom in an environment done to death, but with a tiny alteration? You tell me, both seem quite braindead to me.

A good story isn't really what this genre of literature is about, I don't see a point in criticizing them for that. I like my completely brainless SoL just as much as edgier shit with experimental themes, and I really wouldn't have it any other way.

[Okarin]

7 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

I like reading fan fiction so fuck me

You shouldn't, but you may.

I would add that sometimes, and for some people, MOST of the time, we aren't looking for quality, but for some other fulfillment instead.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Okarin

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Fifty Shades of Grey is literally bad fan-fiction. Slightly edited to insert blatant product placement and remove all the leftover Twilight references. I don't think anyone argues that it's good, only that it's entertaining. :>

But there's another good point to make here - the fact something is bad doesn't mean you can't enjoy reading/watching it and discussing it with others. That's another problem with the snobbish approach to media, inability to understand that people's enjoyment is not in any strict way connected to definitions of good writing/art conceived by literature professors. ;p

I CAN'T LIKE POSTS ANYMORE TODAY, WHYYYYYYY!!!???

[Ranzo]

I do think that people who are talented writers should look into making Visual Novels, not because it's a guaranteed success or anything (nothing is) but that is just another avenue for displaying your creativity. Visual Novels are a unique story driven, interactive vehicle that has a massive amount of untapped potential. The fact that the western side of vn making is largely filled with rubbish should be seen as a great opportunity to carve out your own space and find a audience. Not the other way around. Look at something like Major/Minor, now it is a failure in almost every conceivable level but it was highly successful. Why? It was highly successful because it found it's audience which just so happened to be furries. The same thing goes with all the Sakura games, they were able to find a audience of people who wanted trashy, fan service filled nonsense and that's what they got. There are always going to be people out there who clamor for unique stories with quality writing as well it's just a matter of actually creating something and marketing it.

 

[Plk_Lesiak]

1 minute ago, SeniorBlitz said:

I CAN'T LIKE POSTS ANYMORE TODAY, WHYYYYYYY!!!???

I know that pain, I know it so well...

[EastCoastDrifter]

2 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I know that pain, I know it so well...

You can always use this as a substitute.

[Dreamysyu]

4 hours ago, Zalor said:

I genuinely like well written stories above everything else 

Really, what makes a story well written? With all honesty, is there even an answer to this question? I'm pretty sure that in the current world where 99% of all writing manuscript get rejected after an editor reads the first page, classics like Les Miserables, which takes several chapters in the beginning describing the life of an important but secondary character, would never be accepted by any publisher. I don't think VNs in that sense should even be compared to literature, because they aren't literature. Grisaia, for example, would never work as a book, but it's a pretty good VN if you ask me or a lot of other people around here. And I'm not even talking about something like Ever17, which is practically impossible to adapt to any other form of media.

For me good writing in a VN always comes down to whether I feel entertained or bored while reading it. And, you know, DDLC, with all its flaws, actually managed to keep me interested before its end, so I would argue that it's actually a pretty well-written VN. You may disagree with me, but I don't particularly care. I'd say, if you are dissatisfied with what some VNs do, just don't read them.

And yeah, I'm always for a bigger variety in VN types, and I really wouldn't mind if a new genre of VNs suddenly becomes much more similar to regular books. Actually, I will love that. I just hate when some people imply that there is a correct way to enjoy media, no matter what it is.

[bakauchuujin]

I think one thing to consider is what best suits VNs. Some stories works best as books, some as live action films, some as manga, some as anime and some as VNs. I think we should consider the strenght of the medium. For instance Harem VNs make a lot of sence. Because still images are used they can focus a lot on making individual CGs as well as sprites that look great, which results in the girls looking cute. There is also the fact that VNs lets you choose, which can be used to have muliple routes each feauturing a different heroine. This is something manga and anime for instance can't do that well. Also in regards to pornographic content there is also the fact that no other medium seems to be able to handle it the same way a VN does. For example eroanime generally looks like crap due to low budget, they also generally feature little to no character building, due to there being no character building the only difference is the scenario which if you have watched a bit of eroanime gets boring quickly. Eromanga is better in that it usually have much better art, however they are often very short, 1 chapter or 1 volume, meaning usually a lack of character building. Eroge however can have long stories with fleshed out character as well as H-scenes, for me something like Eroge! Sex and Games Make Sexy Games and Imouto Paradise! is much more enjoyable than any eroanime or eromanga I have seen, and these titles are considered mediocre. So to conclude I think in terms of pornographic content VNs does a lot of good things that no other medium is doing. VNs also works well with mysteries due to how you can make choices and actively change how things play out, making the player much more engaged in the mystery. So in conclution I think it is more interesting to think of what kind of niche that works best with VNs rather than complain that it should be more like other mediums.

Edited February 18, 2018 by bakauchuujin