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What are your thoughts on Western indie VN's?


Thatcomicguy

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You don't really see them mentioned much here so I guess it's a niche community inside a niche community, with the exception of Winged Cloud but there's a reason they get name dropped so often...

For me I have a good amount of them on Steam and read a good amount of them mixed in with the straight up sex games on places like Play Force One.

With a few exceptions like:

The Elsa-Verse VN's (Called: Pandora, Dreaming with Elsa, Redemption for Jessika, Finding Miranda and Saving Chole)  by a small two people team called Tlaero and Mortze (I'll link their Patreon page as they don't show up in VNDB https://www.patreon.com/tora)

The Sunrider series by Love in Space https://vndb.org/p2765

Ace Academy -  ?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

 

and a few others like Starlight Vega and Highway Blossoms.

Most for me at least feel quite hollow or empty compared to their main stay Japanese counter parts most likely due to smaller budgets preventing them from larger scopes or just by not really sticking to the tropes we've come to expect. Thus making them not as interesting.

What do you guys think? 

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I like them, as simple as that, I consider them as much of a VN as the Japanese one, I just use the term OELVN for the sake of differentiation, 'cause for me both are VNs.

Also there are a lot of nice gems out there, though I guess @Palas and @Plk_Lesiak are better people to talk 'bout it.

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Just now, VirginSmasher said:

They seem too much like weebs trying to write like Japanese writers to me and it comes across as really weird.

There are more good things out there like Cinders per example, but, I guess you're not totally wrong the Sakura Series and No One But You receives a lot hate for a reason.

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Just now, VirginSmasher said:

They're not from Nippon so they're all garbage and should be burned in a fire....

Jokes aside, they just don't interest me personally. They seem too much like weebs trying to write like Japanese writers to me and it comes across as really weird.

The art styles too are slightly weird as well, like trying to be a western/anime style hybrid some handle it pretty well and some are down right bad, looking all messy more than anything.  

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2 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

There are more good things out there like Cinders per example, but, I guess you're not totally wrong the Sakura Series and No One But You receives a lot hate for a reason.

I'm not really actively looking for Western VNs anyways. I'll stick to reading Japanese ones.

2 minutes ago, Thatcomicguy said:

The art styles too are slightly weird as well, like trying to be a western/anime style hybrid some handle it pretty well and some are down right bad, looking all messy more than anything.  

Art style doesn't bother me at all usually so I have no issue with that. The writing is where I always have an issue with them.

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1 minute ago, SeniorBlitz said:

There are more good things out there like Cinders per example, but, I guess you're not totally wrong the Sakura Series and No One But You receives a lot hate for a reason.

I hear Winged Cloud has some new writers that are actually trying to write decent scripts now after getting so much hate, personally the only one of their games I truly hate is Sakura Beach 1&2 they are so boring with unlikable heroines. But some of the newer stuff was pretty enjoyable for what they are like Sakura Agent. I enjoyed that well enough but still haven't tried the newer stuff. 

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Just now, Thatcomicguy said:

I hear Winged Cloud has some new writers that are actually trying to write decent scripts now after getting so much hate, personally the only one of their games I truly hate is Sakura Beach 1&2 they are so boring with unlikable heroines. But some of the newer stuff was pretty enjoyable for what they are like Sakura Agent. I enjoyed that well enough but still haven't tried the newer stuff. 

If you're gonna read anything stick to Sakura Fantasy or Sakura Dungeon, everything else is the same thing with a different taste.

Yeah Sakura Beach 1&2 were bad (I remember thinking they weren't that terrible, but, now analyzing it...), the tsundere trope was executed so badly that it just felt like an abusive relationship, I pitied the protagonist most of the time.

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Just now, Funyarinpa said:

 

-The dev is an exploitative fucko (there's an expose on YouTube) 

 

God, this guy is the embodiment of everything that I hate.

1 minute ago, Funyarinpa said:

- Extremely derivative and uninspired

- Hurt the development of the industry in the West, especially OELVNs, by becoming a popular VN despite being so shit

Yeah, Sakura Series helped bring a lot of the shitty stereotypes that were created for the genre, but, I won't say anything anymore since I made a guide for each game with a choice so yeah, I'm being a giant Hypocrite here...

 

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2 minutes ago, Mr Poltroon said:

I don't see them as any different. Some I like, others I don't.

That's probably the wisest answer we're going to get to be fair haha.

3 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said:

Art style doesn't bother me at all usually so I have no issue with that. The writing is where I always have an issue with them.

For me if the art is so bad I won't even touch it no matter how good the story is so I guess I value art more.

1 minute ago, SeniorBlitz said:

If you're gonna read anything stick to Sakura Fantasy or Sakura Dungeon, everything else is the same thing with a different taste.

Yeah Sakura Beach 1&2 were bad (I remember thinking they weren't that terrible, but, now analyzing it...), the tsundere trope was executed so badly that it just felt like an abusive relationship, I pitied the protagonist most of the time.

Yeah the characters in Beach were so badly done that I cringed when they popped up again in a cameo in Agent. I really enjoyed Dungeon it's what made me buy their other titles and Fantasy too, it's a shame we won't see the conclusion to it as it sold poorly according to WC themselves.

3 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

The dev is an exploitative fucko (there's an expose on YouTube) 

Are you referring to the mistreatment of Wanaca? as she came out on Twitter saying those claims were false but I haven't looked into any of it myself so I can't say.

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1 minute ago, Thatcomicguy said:

Are you referring to the mistreatment of Wanaca? as she came out on Twitter saying those claims were false but I haven't looked into any of it myself so I can't say.

Yeah, but the wording on that post was extremely off putting, also the whole "I trust him so much" thing is just so suspicious, like no matter how young or naive you are, this type of stuff is just basic...

But I guess that is not the point of this post, so I'll stop derailing for now.

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1 minute ago, SeniorBlitz said:

Yeah, but the wording on that post was extremely off putting, also the whole "I trust him so much" thing is just so suspicious, like no matter how young or naive you are, this type of stuff is just basic...

But I guess that is not the point of this post, so I'll stop derailing for now.

This is Fuwa derailing is what we do haha. I'm watching the 30 minute expose now so I can comment on this properly at a later time.

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Well, my focus was more on Japanese VN so more or less I just ignore those OELVN. That said, I slightly interested with Crystalline and Lucid9 though, especially the latter since it was published by Sekai as well. Of course like Japanese VN OELVN here did have some potential, the examples were both of Katawa Shoujo and DDLC - the latter bring some very unusual plot twist that only one Japanese VN did that earlier. So in the end to me it didn't matter much because I'd rarely keep my eyes on those, although if they want to release more OELVN and sell it to Steam than go ahead. It's not like I'm going to be mad anyway if for example Baldr Sky was sold along with any of Sakura VN thing anyway, like some people in the past.

Edited by littleshogun
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VN is more of a format than a particular narrative genre, so whether the content itself varies between japanese or western VNs is most likely due to cultural differences and interests. I happen to like the format, and in addition I happen to like japanese culture, so the combination of both turns out really appealing for me. That said, I will read whatever VN that catches my interest regardless of where of by whom it was made.

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11 hours ago, Thatcomicguy said:

Most for me at least feel quite hollow or empty compared to their main stay Japanese counter parts most likely due to smaller budgets preventing them from larger scopes or just by not really sticking to the tropes we've come to expect. Thus making them not as interesting.

Ok, I'm maybe one of the most biased people out there when it goes to this topic, with my weird personal investment into OELVNs, but I'll say a few things:

1. Obviously, OELVNs being indie products, often literally made by a single person, are way below many Japanese ones when it goes to complexity and production values. On the other hand, they can be quite unique and interesting exactly thanks to their creator's quirks and style, see for example Syrup and the Ultimate Sweet (on the cute side of things) or CUPID (on the very-not-cute-side).

2. Many OELVNs are obvious "weeb games", copying Japanese VNs in absurd ways and having no identity of their own, but there are also very distinct ones with Western settings, strongly differentiating themselves from their JP inspirations. See for example Cinders or Apshyxia. There are also rare examples of straight-up "weeb games" that are simply so good that they don't feel like inferior imitations, see Katawa Shoujo and Lucid9.

3. I guess artstyle is very much a problem of personal taste, but I actually like hybrid ones. Razz's or Inma's art are good examples of something that is not that far away from generic anime style but have its own personality and I enjoy their work a lot.

4. OELVN market is super-heavy on yuri (and games with female protagonists in general), when compared to JP scene. For me that's already a strong enough reason to appreciate it. :chaika:

EDIT: For more information and thoughts on OELVNs, please follow my blog. :mare:

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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The main issue with EVN's is they often don't strive beyond constraints of their own perception. A lot of people tend to consider them "poor japanese imitations" and oftentimes - rightfully so; it's because being both a developer and a part of this thriving industry, western creators often get that gist literally and feel the need to copy japanese works in order to remain successful. This is partially revelant, because large part of the community in itself is compromised of weebs and people who tend to consume massive ammounts of japanese popculture; catering to them might seem like the only viable way to ensure popularity to a somewhat degree. At the same time, a lot of devs actually show promise with their works, by producing complete derivatives of what typical vn's tend to be, naming Along the Edge as one of the prime examples on how western based vn's can remain original and creative; whether they are successful is another story. Lately I also enjoyed Sweetest Monster as an unique approach to classic horror storytelling and I strongly feel we need more games in a similiar manner. Games, that actually try to tell a story, instead of being just a static, run of the mill animay adventures.

I presume we're on the right track, but still have a long way before our western developers create their own unique identity and increase the overall quality of their works. There's a lot of promise hidden within this market and genre. First and foremost, we need skilled creators striving to produce more ambitious works, especially in terms of storytelling, writing and overall composition. We already have too many games that are the same copy-paste of identical stories with different art assets plastered on top of them.

 

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19 hours ago, Thatcomicguy said:

You don't really see them mentioned much here so I guess it's a niche community inside a niche community

You know, I am not exactly sure how representative of the overall VN-reading community Fuwa is. It's true that people talk about non-Japanese VNs much less here, but does this necessarily mean that they are less popular? There are a lot of cheap and accessible VNs on Steam, and a lot of people play them. Also, there is DDLC.

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I haven't played many of them only about three. One was Sakura Fantasy which was kinda decent so of course they dropped it after the first chapter so they could focus on more shitwater. The second one was Crimson Gray which was good and The Sweetest Monster which I thought was great. I started The Letter a while back but didn't get anywhere with it.

I think they have the potential to be great so long as they forge along their own path and stop imitating their Japanese counterparts.

I guess Katawa Shoujo could be called a western vn? That would make it four

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