The Broadcast Club: VN Podcast Episode 9 - Adult Content in Visual Novels

[NowItsAngeTime]

Hey all! It's been a little longer than planned, but the ninth episode of The Broadcast Club is finally available. As always you can find it on our blog:

http://thebroadcast.club/2018/01/09/episode-9-adult-content/

 This episode we tackled the big topic of the role of adult rated content in the medium with /r/visualnovels community member, Zonijo.
 

As it always goes for me, it was a busy holiday season this past year, so this has been in production for quite some time. Unfortunately, this means our news is a little out of date since we had to delay so long. On the plus side (at least I hope people consider it a plus side), this episode is a little longer than our usual. I hope you all enjoy listening to it as much as we enjoyed recording it. We might have had a little too much fun recording it at times.

 

If you prefer to watch/listen on YouTube, we have a channel now!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsAcGboxM5tSyYcU6Fu4nDw/videos 

 

Make sure to follow us on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/VNBroadcastClub 

-----------------------------

Discussion Topics

How about you? I'm pretty sure we just had a thread not too long ago about H scenes, but who doesn't like talking about this stuff, right?

• Do you think that adult content should be such a large presence in the Visual Novel medium?
• How do you feel about All Ages releases that add new content that the 18+ version doesn't have to compensate for the lost content?
• Be honest. Do you read VNs for the plot, or for the plot?

[Jptje]

This was a nice listen, thanks for making this. One reason I like visual novels is that they don't shy away from, well, just about anything. The roots of that are, no doubt, in h-scenes for the simple reason that sex sells. I don't think the image of visual novels as glorified chinese porn powerpoints is one that'll ever be really changed for the better - I've tried introducing friends to visual novels, with mixed results. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is somewhat unwilling to mention it to people due to the prevalence of h-scenes. Still, with there being a good number of vn's without them and even a few examples of sex being used to aid the plot (instead of, y'know, the plot) as you mentioned, I think the medium is in a pretty good place as is.

Dies Irae is tucked away somewhere in the depths of my backlog, but I'd also wait for the full version, if only because I'm the type who wants to see and know everything there is... even if it is just trashy porn, I can at least ascertain that myself.

I won't claim to not like... the other kind of plot, but visual novels (besides maybe nukige) are kind of awkward when that's what you're looking for, as you have to typically read for hours on end whereas the internet is filled with plenty of nice images to please your libido.

"I thought I knew this person..."

[Plk_Lesiak]

Very cool podcast, I'm just listening to the newest one and will be going to all the rest of them on YouTube in the coming days.

I agree with a lot of what was said there so far. I'm personally completely uninterested in Hentai, but I absolutely don't mind milder/well-thought-out sexual content, many stories in VNs touch on various adult themes so there's no logical reason for sex to be excluded from that. Just most of the time the porn scenes in VNs are so trashy, schematic and obviously inserted solely as fapping material, so as someone who doesn't "use" that it's simply taking me out of the experience. I wished more devs take the approach similar to the authors of Dies Irae, with all ages version made with actual care and effort, but I have little hope for that actually happening - it's enough to point to what Dergonu wrote about the JP VN market in that hentai thread, sex do sell and people like me, wanting all-ages versions of everything that can work without porn, are most likely in minority even among the western VN fans.

EDIT: And by having all ages versions I mean, ideally, having the ability to chose between the version with and without H-scenes, like many western VNs or better Steam releases do. Just not in a way that was mentioned in the podcast with Nekopara ("here's the obviously cut content"), but with at least minimal effort. It takes a few lines of well-written text to signal what was happening after the screen went black and don't leave you with an impression that something's obviously missing. It's just sad that publishers often can't give even that much thought and effort when censoring sexual content.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Plk_Lesiak

[Freestyle80]

Not gonna lie, i usually dont fully read any ero-scenes in VNs unless maybe if its a heroine i really really liked but even then if there's more than one per heroine i sometimes just press Ctrl through it altogether since by that point i probably just wanna know where the story is going.

 

Thats why i liked the way Chrono Clock did its H-scenes, its completely separate and the drama in the end wasnt interrupted by a random ero scene and when i finished the game and went and read those it felt a bit more satisfying 

[Dreamysyu]

1 hour ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

are most likely in minority even among the western VN fans.

Actually, I'm not sure about that. Maybe, they are just less vocal.

3 hours ago, Jptje said:

One reason I like visual novels is that they don't shy away from, well, just about anything.

True. Even though I don't particularly care about h-scenes in VNs unless they are actually important to the plot (which is rare), this is the main reason why I don't want Japanese developers to switch to all-ages releases.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Dreamysyu

[Plk_Lesiak]

21 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

Actually, I'm not sure about that. Maybe, they are just less vocal.

Well, if you look what sells best in the West (Nekopara, Sakura games etc) I think most people buy VNs for porn and fanservice. Of course, we can argue if those people are actually interested in VNs apart from grabbing one or two as fapping material, but in the end if they're more numerous and easy to bait with "sexy" stuff, they'll matter much more than any dedicated, but small niche audience.

And with people that actually dislike hentai and still bother to read VNs a lot... I'm pretty sure I'm one of fairly few - from what I've observed around here it's rather those enjoying h-content that talk less about it.

[bakauchuujin]

In the cases where 18+ and all ages are released and the all ages version has replacement content I think it would be nice to implement it into the 18+ version for those that want to get everything and not feel like they miss out on something. For instance in the 18+ version of the VN they could have an option for each route right before the first sex scene where one option lead to the rest of the route being all ages and one leading to the version with sex scenes. I think this would be a way to have an ultimate version of the VN.

[Dergonu]

Heh, you guys talk about how the Mangagamer store feels "dirty," and it being a bit awkward recommending a VN sold there to people because of it.

Try actually bringing people into a store that sells eroge in Japan. Literally every nook and cranny of those places have H-scenes playing on TV screens, NSFW posters hanging everywhere, and a billion different VN covers that are all made to look overly sexual. (+ A bunch of nukige mixed in with the story heavy games, because why not.)

I'm not complaining, of course (/ω＼). I do have to admit though, buying Ma*ko Hunter in front of a female classmate was pretty awkward.   At this point I have brought her into those stores like three times, so it's not as bad anymore, lol. Even got her to buy a game herself.

12 hours ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

How about you? I'm pretty sure we just had a thread not too long ago about H scenes, but who doesn't like talking about this stuff, right?

• Do you think that adult content should be such a large presence in the Visual Novel medium?
• How do you feel about All Ages releases that add new content that the 18+ version doesn't have to compensate for the lost content?
• Be honest. Do you read VNs for the plot, or for the plot?

1) I personally do, yes. At this point it has become a core part of the medium, and trying to change that now would just annoy the current fanbase. That's not to say H is all VNs has to offer, not by a long shot, but there is no doubt that it is an important part of the medium, and I think it should stay that way. I am personally not a big fan of the way the west tries to separate H from eroge, then selling it as "optional DLC" on the side, even though the H was an original part of the game. This feels weird to me, since the game originally came with that content, and it isn't really meant to be optional. But, that's just how it goes when steam is the biggest VN distribution platform, I suppose.

2) I will always prefer the original version of eroge, and won't really play all-ages remakes. That being said, as long as the 18+ version is offered as well, I have no issue with them being a thing. It's nice that people who aren't big fans of H also has an option.

3) Both! Plot is great, but plot can be pretty darn good as well at times.

[MaggieROBOT]

7 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

Try actually bringing people into a store that sells eroge in Japan. Literally every nook and cranny of those places have H-scenes playing on TV screens, NSFW posters hanging everywhere, and a billion different VN covers that are all made to look overly sexual. (+ A bunch of nukige mixed in with the story heavy games, because why not.)

You know what, entering those stores is in my list of "things to do before I die"  I always wanted to go to one! But I look like some 14 years old, I do wonder if they would think I'm some lost kid that entered the wrong place, but oh well. And being female myself, I hope I'll not make everyone there a bit awkward XD

 

And I always thought that I didn't care much about H-scenes, I read if they're there but if it's all ages it's fine too, but I recently found out that I didn't care about BAD H-scenes (no, not every one of them are bad!!!! You just need to find your thing! ). Some days ago I checked an all ages version of a game bc ofc it had some extra content. But I really liked the original's H-scenes and in the end I could only find the replacements SO DULL!!!

Not saying every all ages editions are trash, but remember that cutting content that someone liked and wanted is always annoying, regardless of what it is. So yeah, release both versions so you can pick your favorite and everyone can be happy!

41 minutes ago, bakauchuujin said:

In the cases where 18+ and all ages are released and the all ages version has replacement content I think it would be nice to implement it into the 18+ version for those that want to get everything and not feel like they miss out on something. For instance in the 18+ version of the VN they could have an option for each route right before the first sex scene where one option lead to the rest of the route being all ages and one leading to the version with sex scenes. I think this would be a way to have an ultimate version of the VN.

But this ultimate version idea pleases my completionist's heart.

[NowItsAngeTime]

7 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Very cool podcast, I'm just listening to the newest one and will be going to all the rest of them on YouTube in the coming days.

 

Thanks!

I'm glad I chose to put them on YouTube, some people prefer that method and I'm glad it's at least getting one person to choose that way over the other site.

 

3 hours ago, Dergonu said:

Try actually bringing people into a store that sells eroge in Japan. Literally every nook and cranny of those places have H-scenes playing on TV screens, NSFW posters hanging everywhere, and a billion different VN covers that are all made to look overly sexual. (+ A bunch of nukige mixed in with the story heavy games, because why not.)

I'm not complaining, of course (/ω＼). I do have to admit though, buying Ma*ko Hunter in front of a female classmate was pretty awkward.   At this point I have brought her into those stores like three times, so it's not as bad anymore, lol. Even got her to buy a game herself.

I saw a video of this and as an pro H-scene I'm super interested in going to one of these

Thankfully my other friends who know me likely wouldn't be too awkward if I took them in this store and might even get a good laugh out of it.

[bakauchuujin]

12 minutes ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

I saw a video of this and as an pro H-scene I'm super interested in going to one of these

Thankfully my other friends who know me likely wouldn't be too awkward if I took them in this store and might even get a good laugh out of it.

Akiba is a great place for eroge. Just get there and go to the top floors of stores like Sofmap and Traders. Ofc these stores can be found everywhere, but the selection in akiba is very good.

[Zander]

7 hours ago, Jptje said:

 (...) I don't think the image of visual novels as glorified chinese porn powerpoints is one that'll ever be really changed for the better.

Why is that, though? I enjoyed the podcast and found the discussions on this in the subreddit very interesting. I was previously under the impression that the majority of that community (and, well, the entire VN community at large) preferred sexual content in their VNs. However, I noticed people arguing about how VNs are essentially interactive books, yet the vast majority that are produced follow a traditional format of pursuing cute girls with the ultimate intention of having sex with them, regardless of the overarching narrative. 

Why aren't there more VNs like STEINS;GATE (not the best example but bear with me here) and whatnot being produced? If there were, perhaps the image of VNs could shift a little bit. Is it really that its simply easier and more profitable to make VNs that have sex as a primary or secondary focus? Not arguing with or against you, here, just curious to hear more about your thoughts on this.

P.S I also watched/listened on YouTube, and would encourage you to continue uploading there

[bakauchuujin]

Using cute girls is pretty widespread within the otaku community. This is not only limited to things featuring sex. The harem genre and the cute girls genre seems to really be on the rise. Now when you already have cute girls being within the story and a media where sex scenes are common and expected it really isn't that odd that lots of VNs end up using these cute girls for sex scenes.

[Jptje]

13 minutes ago, Zander said:

Why aren't there more VNs like STEINS;GATE (not the best example but bear with me here) and whatnot being produced? If there were, perhaps the image of VNs could shift a little bit. Is it really that its simply easier and more profitable to make VNs that have sex as a primary or secondary focus? Not arguing with or against you, here, just curious to hear more about your thoughts on this.

Thinking about it, I have two reasons to think the image visual novels won't change.

The first one is, again, the fact that sex sells, being the tried-and-true method as it were. In order to avoid confusion, let me be specific that by 'h-scene' I mean any sort of pandering material unnecessary to the plot in the following. Even if many more visual novels appear which don't rely on h-scenes, I think there'll always be at least as many that do. As was mentioned in the podcast, it is fairly easy to write in h-scenes after the story itself has been written down, too. Inserting h-scenes seems to be something that costs relatively little while paying back big from a company perspective. I do agree that this may very well be a short-term vision, but that brings me to the second point.

H-scene-less (man I wish there were better terminology for this) visual novels would have to break free from their bad stigma. Think of a separate name for this kind of game/novel, separate steam tags, selling them in different stores (looking back at what Dergonu wrote, if I'd walk into a store like that unknowingly, I'd also be tempted to think everything in there must be porn), that kind of thing. These visual novels would need to profile themselves as being distinctly different from 'the stuff with porn in it'. I don't mean this purely on the business side, though - fan communities, too, would have to split lest you be named together with porny variant of your hobby.

As such, I don't think stigma visual novels have will change anytime soon. Now, I should mention that these are purely my thoughts on the matter - I can't exactly back this up with anything and I might be wholly mistaken, but these are my two cents.

Sorry for the bombastic opening, I initially had four points but then I realised three were really the same thing, please don't lynch me.

[Dreamysyu]

6 minutes ago, Jptje said:

H-scene-less (man I wish there were better terminology for this) visual novels would have to break free from their bad stigma. Think of a separate name for this kind of game/novel, separate steam tags, selling them in different stores (looking back at what Dergonu wrote, if I'd walk into a store like that unknowingly, I'd also be tempted to think everything in there must be porn), that kind of thing. These visual novels would need to profile themselves as being distinctly different from 'the stuff with porn in it'. I don't mean this purely on the business side, though - fan communities, too, would have to split lest you be named together with porny variant of your hobby.

Well, don't VNs like Steins;Gate actually position themselves in Japan as something completely different from the usual eroge? Correct me if I'm wrong, i'm simply reciting things from my memory of something else talking about it, but I think Japanese don't even have a word for 'visual novel', calling them simply as eroge in case they have h-scenes, or as adventure games in case they don't. And, yeah, selling something like SG in a store like that would be pretty stupid.

[Jptje]

That's a good point, that distinction is there in Japan. We're stuck with the blanket term 'visual novel', on the other hand... never thought about it like that.

[NowItsAngeTime]

1 hour ago, Zander said:

Why is that, though? I enjoyed the podcast and found the discussions on this in the subreddit very interesting. I was previously under the impression that the majority of that community (and, well, the entire VN community at large) preferred sexual content in their VNs. However, I noticed people arguing about how VNs are essentially interactive books, yet the vast majority that are produced follow a traditional format of pursuing cute girls with the ultimate intention of having sex with them, regardless of the overarching narrative. 

Why aren't there more VNs like STEINS;GATE (not the best example but bear with me here) and whatnot being produced? If there were, perhaps the image of VNs could shift a little bit. Is it really that its simply easier and more profitable to make VNs that have sex as a primary or secondary focus? Not arguing with or against you, here, just curious to hear more about your thoughts on this.

P.S I also watched/listened on YouTube, and would encourage you to continue uploading there

Definitely plan on continuing to upload on YouTube. Episodes should be up on it within a few hours after it's up on the main site.

In Japan, apparently the VN scene (according to VN;Conference) took a big hit due to natural disasters and VNs continuing to stay niche. So developers these days continue to play it safe with the typical eroge/moege/charage stuff.

Non-18+/"Artistic" VNs made in Japan made these days are a big risk. Sure they could potentially make it big IF the story is that good... but there's no guarantee if there's no H-scenes or super moe waifus or whatevs. So it's understandable to take the safe route.

Companies that are already fairly well off in comparison (Type Moon, KEY, Ryuukishi, Nitroplus/5pb, etc) can easily take risks with artistic stories since people will buy them based on brand name. But many of them had to take the safe routes of making eroge back in the day to get recognized in the first place.

So it'd be high risk for a new/not well known company to do a story like this without failing as a company in terms of sales. Sure the "hardcore" fanbase may love the VN but they're still the minority, especially western readers.

[Ranzo]

I only listened to it for about thirty minutes so far so I can't give my full impression on it but what I did listen to I liked.

For me I've never been a fan of having H scenes in Visual Novels though I've accepted that it is something that will most likely never go away. If they are to remain I wish they would improve the quality of the scenes in regards to writing and placement. I can count on my hands the times where a H scene felt well placed. Oftentimes it just seems so jarring when it's like suddenly sex. It's always so unrealistic as well because rarely if ever is the subject of contraceptives even mentioned. It's like they never took a sex education class in their life. The quality of the writing takes the biggest hit as it just seems to plummet. There is a way to write sex scenes that are romantic and passionate but it seems that few games even try. It was funny to me that you brought up Kara No Shoujo because that was one of the few times I actually didn't mind the H. I think it was the art quality and the fact that the scenes were decently written.(For the most part)

I think things are changing though visual novels are becoming more mainstream and the perception is advancing slowly that they can be something more than dumb sex games. I think the medium still has a long way to go and if they continue to rely almost solely on the Japanese market it probably won't change for a long time. Still, I mean hell if Playboy can stop putting nudie pics in their magazine anything is possible.

I prefer games that were originally conceived as being all ages than to a game that is transformed into being all ages. This is a mostly adult medium and it should be treated as such. It's like those R rated movies that they broadcast on TV that are heavily edited. I'm not a fan. However, I think in order to continue selling games on steam it will be necessary evil that some content is cut. The best solution in my mind is to release a game on steam with only the sex scenes cut out and a separate version somewhere else with all the naughty bits intact.

I read VN's for the plot though there might be one or two occasions where I get one solely for the sex. That is really rare and I sometimes end up regretting it. There are so many avenues for finding porn these days that I have no real need of it.

So yeah, that's my rambling slightly incoherent take on it.

[MaggieROBOT]

16 minutes ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

Non-18+/"Artistic" VNs made in Japan made these days are a big risk. Sure they could potentially make it big IF the story is that good... but there's no guarantee if there's no H-scenes or super moe waifus or whatevs. So it's understandable to take the safe route.

Maybe it's not a safe route just "these days". I mean, Kanon had porn before Key made a name for themselves or look how Nasu changed tons of things in Fate/Prototype for it to "sell better" and it became the Fate/Stay Night we know.

[NowItsAngeTime]

2 hours ago, MaggieROBOT said:

Maybe it's not a safe route just "these days". I mean, Kanon had porn before Key made a name for themselves or look how Nasu changed tons of things in Fate/Prototype for it to "sell better" and it became the Fate/Stay Night we know.

That's what I mean, newbie companies will likely have to play safe to some extent and include H

Once they've gotten a resume of popular titles they can choose to go non-H VNs if they believe to be popular enough.

[r0xm2n]

I don't mind H scenes. H scenes was half the reason I originally bought The Fruit of Grisaia (my first VN). Of course, the plot of that game was like 80% of the enjoyment for me.

That said, some H scenes just drag on too long. You can probably cut out half of the dialogue and it would be fine.

I don't mind the foreplay, romance, kissing, and upskirt shots taking a long time though. But once they start actually 'getting it on', it should be quicker. And going for 'three rounds' in a single scene is over the top. If a game wants tons of H content, then divide them up into smaller, optional scenes.

[Sparteh]

On 1/10/2018 at 5:09 AM, NowItsAngeTime said:

Discussion Topics

How about you? I'm pretty sure we just had a thread not too long ago about H scenes, but who doesn't like talking about this stuff, right?

• Do you think that adult content should be such a large presence in the Visual Novel medium?
• How do you feel about All Ages releases that add new content that the 18+ version doesn't have to compensate for the lost content?
• Be honest. Do you read VNs for the plot, or for the plot?

Before I begin, I want to summarize my opinion: I love VN as a format, but I DESPITE h-scenes.  I distinguish 2 separate activities: reading story and reading "plot". If I wanted for that type of "plot" I could easily google any other format much faster and enjoy it better. 

Now back to the topic, what I think about adult content in VNs? Well, such content can be split into pornographic and other content. If we are speaking only about pornographic one, we have way to much of it. There are VNs and routes where it is important, for example Saya no Uta, but most of the VNs have it for no reason. Most of such content is not only useless, but also comes out of nowhere. Furthermore, it is censored... Like seriously, whats the point of it?

As for other type of adult content, I don't see much of the problem.

When it comes to All Ages version, there are a few things that are important and have to be taken into consideration. The most important of which is what it exactly sensors. If it just h-scenes, then there is no problem, but some patches sensor other content as well. If that content is just some gore then it is not a problem even if no new content is added. On the other hand, sometimes those elements are important to the plot. For example, F/SN HF. Not going into much of spoiler territory (though most of people have ether played or know it already), censoring heroine's backstory did change a lot of things, but knowing original uncensored information allowed to understand situation better in censored version.