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Sorcery Jokers was released on January 12th


littleshogun

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53 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

Are you playing stupid on purpose? He obviously wants the term "siscon" to be used.

There are some things that just don't translate well or can't be translated at all, "Fujoshi" translates in english as "Rotten Girl", but it still wouldn't make sense to a western audience without some TL Note that explains in details what that japanese centric term entails, so it might be better to just leave it as "Fujoshi" instead and not do what NISA did by "All-Aging" the term and translating it as "Fangirl", similarly it would be better to just leave "Siscon" as-is rather than attemping to come up with a more western and tamer term that doesn't convey the original meaning, for one "Siscon" is a derogatory term thrown at a person accused of having unchaste feelings or doing unchaste things towards one's sister, unlike "Sister Enthusiast" which is really neutral and doesn't even really mean anything. (how many times in your lives have you heard the term "Sister Enthusiast" being used?)

Edited by Nier
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3 hours ago, novurdim said:

Well, sure, though I do wonder which of the letters in a "sister enthusiast" looks like "9" or "g".

I never said that these words contain them, did I?  I merely stated that this translation has such mistakes. As for siscon, as a translator I can say that translating these kinds of expressions is a pain. When you translate, you have to adapt as much as possible to target language. Technically speaking, such words as siscon, loli, NTR etc. are not proper English words, so translators have to be creative here. In fact, depending on the country and company, translators can even be fined if they don't translate in a certain way. So while it may sound strange, there isn't much one can do about it.

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9 minutes ago, Nier said:

There are some things that just don't translate well or can't be translated at all, "Fujoshi" translates in english as "Rotten Girl", but it still wouldn't make sense to a western audience without some TL Note that explains in details what that japanese centric term entails, so it might be better to just leave it as "Fujoshi" instead and not do what NISA did by trying to tame the term by translating it as "Fangirl", similarly it would be better to just leave "Siscon" as-is rather than attemping to come up with a more western and tamer term that still doesn't convey the original meaning, for one "Siscon" is a derogatory term thrown at a person accused of having unchaste feelings or doing unchaste things towards that individual's sister, unlike "Sister Enthusiast" which is really neutral and doesn't even really mean anything. (how many times in your lives have you heard the term "Sister Enthusiast" being used?)

None as incestuous feelings are so rare that they don't enter peoples minds when a brother is overprotective etc. Atleast in my experience. But siscon is so descriptive that it should be left as is, like you said. Japan sure loves their incest fantasies.

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16 minutes ago, Nier said:

(how many times in your lives have you heard the term "Sister Enthusiast" being used?)

In real life? About two times more often than siscon which is but a speech parasite from a foreign language and not a hard scientific term you weird men make it out to be. 

If we seriously discuss such a ridiculous topic then in a light joyful conversation "sister enthusiast" would even be much closer to the actual meaning of the collocation than "siscon". It's hard to say anything without a context but even if we follow your made up dogma, the

16 minutes ago, Nier said:

derogatory term thrown at a person accused of having unchaste feelings or doing unchaste things towards that individual's sister,

would sure look weirder in a joke than a lovely sister enthusiast which has quite an obvious meaning. 

Edited by novurdim
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'Fujoshi' is a real Japanese word and at least I wouldn't know what it is, so I'd consider it fine to have it translated.

'Siscon' however, is essentially an English term since it comes from 'Sister Complex'. The short form in Japanese is written in katakana as 'シスコン' and pronounced as 'shisukon'. They use an 'n' instead of an 'm' at the end because 'complex' is written in Japanese katakana as 'コンプレックス' and pronounced as 'konpurekusu'. But essentially it's just the English word 'complex' in slightly mutated form.

So instead of trying to translate the English term 'Sister Complex' into another English term 'Sister Enthusiast', I think it would have been the better idea to just use the original term in the correct way like "he has a sister complex" instead of trying to create a new word abomination nobody needs. :blink:

Edited by ChaosRaven
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37 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

'Fujoshi' is a real Japanese word and at least I wouldn't know what it is, so I'd consider it fine to have it translated.

'Siscon' however, is essentially an English term since it comes from 'Sister Complex'. The short form in Japanese is written in katakana as 'シスコン' and pronounced as 'shisukon'. They use an 'n' instead of an 'm' at the end because 'complex' is written in Japanese katakana as 'コンプレックス' and pronounced as 'konpurekusu'. But essentially it's just the English word 'complex' in slightly mutated form.

So instead of trying to translate the English term 'Sister Complex' into another English term 'Sister Enthusiast', I think it would have been the better idea to just use the original term in the correct way like "he has a sister complex" instead of trying to create a new word abomination nobody needs. :blink:

Trying to use the Japanese term is a bad idea.  It still needs to be explained that it refers to a mental illness or hangup.  Then it needs to be explained that it refers specifically to overly affectionate/protective behaviors towards a sister, rather than some other hangup.

I think "enthusiast" is a bad translation, barring some specific context.  "Obsessive" or some variant of that is probably better.  Best is likely abandoning the use of a specific phrase entirely, and just translate the meaning of each sentence, rather than being caught up on trivialities.

 

And 'fangirl' for 'fujoshi' is not bad.  It certainly gets the idea across - something that takes fandom a little too far.

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36 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

'Fujoshi' is a real Japanese word and at least I wouldn't know what it is, so I'd consider it fine to have it translated.

'Siscon' however, is essentially an English term since it comes from 'Sister Complex'. The short form in Japanese is written in katakana as 'シスコン' and pronounced as 'shisukon'. They use an 'n' instead of an 'm' at the end because 'complex' is written in Japanese katakana as 'コンプレックス' and pronounced as 'konpurekusu'. But essentially it's just the English word 'complex' in slightly mutated form.

So instead of trying to translate the English term 'Sister Complex' into another English term 'Sister Enthusiast', I think it would have been the better idea to just use the original term in the correct way like "he has a sister complex" instead of trying to create a new word abomination nobody needs. :blink:

Yes and "note personal computer" is a real English word too 

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Using "Sister Complex" everywhere is just pointlessly mechanical, would make for a stilted reading and as far from an immersive translation as you can get. C'mon, guys, getting a bit creative with a silly often pointless term won't hurt and no, I don't offer "sister enthusiast" as a some kind of an ultimate translation (though it is infinitely better than "obsessive"), but it can be great when it fits.

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2 hours ago, Toranth said:

And 'fangirl' for 'fujoshi' is not bad.  It certainly gets the idea across - something that takes fandom a little too far.

Lol no it's not, it remove all meaning to the word and remove even the derogatory meaning of it, when you call someone a "fujoshi" it's not a compliment!

The original japanese version clearly mentioned the fact that a female character was a fujoshi, a disgusting (rotten) girl who gets excited by the sight or thought of guys being together, the english version by SJW publisher NISA removes all of this and just says that the female is a "fangirl" without providing any other information nor context, by changing "fujoshi" to "fangirl" you eleminate all sexual and derogatory meaning from the context.

Edited by Nier
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At least it's not 'sister radio control' or something like that, which I found that term back at MTL-ed Soukoku no Arterial lol.

As for Haruto, well in case you think he's annoying because 'That's not playing fair' thingy just think him as a 10 years old boy, because that's pretty much what kid that age would say whenever something don't go their way.

Spoiler

And by that I mean it very literally, because he's basically a clone from Senri's dad that was apparently created about 10 years ago and his life was isolated with his stepdad detective, and I'm sure that 10 years old would imprint his parent lifestyle. It's pretty much just like Luke back at Tales of the Abyss in regard of Haruto which actually could make him a good MC, although too bad though that Senri was far more awesome than Haruto is so I would say that Haruto was overshadowed by Senri rather than being bad MC. As for the pathetic enemy, well just think that the writer give 10 years old boy an pathetic enemy to make the boy shine more lol.

In the end, it's up to each other people though in regard of Haruto I suppose.

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8 hours ago, ChaosRaven said:

No, those are three words not one.

Edit: And btw, 'Sister Complex' is even listed in Wikipedia in the list of specific complexes at the end of the article.

Sister complex is 2 words too. Just because it's "English" doesn't mean it's used. I bet some weeb added it on Wikipedia.

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26 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Sister complex is 2 words too. Just because it's "English" doesn't mean it's used. I bet some weeb added it on Wikipedia.

Let's test this theory.

"Sister complex" and "Brother complex" were added to the article on 10:09, 4 October 2017‎ by 2601:6c4:4001:2af0:c552:121a:8b38:ec8a; a user without an account. This is their only edit on record. Since then, the page has not been edited or revised by anyone except bots and other users without an account. Sister and brother complex are neither cited nor are they mentioned in any of the citations on the page. Thus, it can be concluded that it is likely that this information is erroneous and will be revised when an expert reviews the article.

For a further bit of confirmation, I researched for academic studies containing the exact terms "brother complex" and "sister complex"; I found little to none that dealt with psychology rather than biological sciences (where sister complex and compounds are terms completely unrelated to what is being discussed here).

The only relevant mention I could find was in Normal and obsessional jealousy: a study of a population of young adults by Donatella Marraziti et al. This paper contained "Freud [9] suggested that jealousy was rooted in the Oedipus or “brother and sister” complex". 

From all of this, I can conclude that "brother complex" and "sister complex" are unheard of within psychology. The only mention I could uncover referred to them as an alternate name for the Oedipus complex, which would actually be quite misleading considering that particular complex refers to affections towards one's parents and jealousy towards siblings. Though related, it is quite different from the meaning of the original phrase "siscon". 

I hope that helps clear things up.

Edited by Zander
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7 hours ago, Nier said:

Lol no it's not, it remove all meaning to the word and remove even the derogatory meaning of it, when you call someone a "fujoshi" it's not a compliment!

The original japanese version clearly mentioned the fact that a female character was a fujoshi, a disgusting (rotten) girl who gets excited by the sight or thought of guys being together, the english version by SJW publisher NISA removes all of this and just says that the female is a "fangirl" without providing any other information nor context, by changing "fujoshi" to "fangirl" you eleminate all sexual and derogatory meaning from the context.

If you think being called a fanboy or fangirl is a compliment, I think you misunderstand the term.  Fujoshi is basically a female equivalent of otaku - a bit more specialized, due to the focus on the BL obsession, but otherwise much the same.  Remember that otaku literally means 'home' - by your logic, translating it as "geek" or "nerd" (very common) is totally wrong because it loses that meaning.

If you are annoyed that "SJW publisher" NISA removed the specific references to pornography, then that's a different thing entirely.  But your complaints about the translations of specific words are off target, and your suggested solutions are worse. 

A lot of Japanese terms do not have perfect equivalents in Western societies.  Sometimes these differences are important, and the translators need to work to develop an alternate way to convey the concept.  Other times, there's a humorous description of a character as a 'fujoshi' which isn't important, doesn't convey any deep meaning or valuable concepts, and is not worth breaking up a story with cultural lessons or 'made up words' that 99% of the readers will never care about.

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11 hours ago, Zander said:

From all of this, I can conclude that "brother complex" and "sister complex" are unheard of within psychology. The only mention I could uncover referred to them as an alternate name for the Oedipus complex, which would actually be quite misleading considering that particular complex refers to affections towards one's parents and jealousy towards siblings. Though related, it is quite different from the meaning of the original phrase "siscon".

You're way overthinking things. You can have a complex about all kind of things - it's not restricted to just a few things. Just like 'fan' is also not a word restricted to the usage of 'Star Trek fans'. And considering there's already both a 'father complex' and a 'mother complex' (=Oedipus complex) I think it should be clear that brother and sister complexes are just in line. Especially considering that you can find lots of incest cases between siblings in history and mythology too. And if a psychologist would encounter a patient who's obsessed with his sister - how would he call it? Or do you think crazy stuff like a 'Madonna-whore complex' that spans an entire Wikipedia article has more justification than a simple brother or sister complex?! And do you also think that the huge Lolita Complex article in Wikipedia with countless quotations should be deleted just because it originates from the term 'Lolicon'?

The more interesting question would be: would the usage of the word 'Otaku' be okay in a translation? Because it's most certainly not an English word, even if there's a huge Wikipedia article about it. And who exactly decides what's okay to use in an English translation? If the word or term can be found in the Oxford Dictionary - or Wikipedia?

But what about fictional beings? If you translate a fantasy RPG that has lots of fictional monsters like gnolls or illithids which are essentially D&D monsters which you will most certainly not find in the Oxford Dictionary, would their usage be allowed, or not - and why? Would the word oni be allowed despite being a very specific Japanese monster or would it have to be translated to something like 'ogre'?

Guess that removes all clarity now... :sleep:

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1 hour ago, ChaosRaven said:

You're way overthinking things.

Oh, I quite disagree. I was just having a bit of fun trying to prove Kiri wrong. Sadly, my attempts backfired. In any case, thank you for expressing yourself in a respectful manner, and allow me to respond to everything you said here in an equally gracious way.

1 hour ago, ChaosRaven said:

You're way overthinking things. You can have a complex about all kind of things - it's not restricted to just a few things. Just like 'fan' is also not a word restricted to the usage of 'Star Trek fans'. And considering there's already both a 'father complex' and a 'mother complex' (=Oedipus complex)

An Oedipus complex is separate from a father complex and mother complex. Neither of the latter two indicate any form of sexualisation; rather they can indicate a range of feelings from negative to positive to ambivalent. My point is simply that "complex" has too wide a range of implications for the common reader to be able to discern what "sister complex" would refer to, whereas sister enthusiast, although certainly not perfect, has relatively easily discerned sexual undertones in my opinion. Sister complex could be that the individual is (non-sexually) obsessed with his sister; that he is jealous of her, so on...

1 hour ago, ChaosRaven said:

 And if a psychologist would encounter a patient who's obsessed with his sister - how would he call it? Or do you think crazy stuff like a 'Madonna-whore complex' that spans an entire Wikipedia article has more justification than a simple brother or sister complex?! And do you also think that the huge Lolita Complex article in Wikipedia with countless quotations should be deleted just because it originates from the term 'Lolicon'?

Depends. It should be noted that complexes are found chiefly in psychoanalysis and analytical psychology. Unfortunately, as I am a mere student and not a certified psychologist, I cannot hope to surmise what name a professional would assign to such a condition. 

Yes, I do think the Maddona-whore complex has complete justification. I can easily find a number of academic sources detailing information about it... not to mention, I don't think it's crazy at all. You should see how hard of a time I had getting it up with my ex-girlfriend of several years! No, I don't think the Lolita complex article should be deleted, nor did I ever suggest such a thing. It doesn't originate from the term lolicon at all; it derives from the novel by Vladimir Nabokov. Unless you're referring to how the title of the article is "Lolicon"; if that's the case, I think it's fine considering a wider amount of readers are more familiar with that term than with "Lolita Complex", but I am not well-versed in Wikipedia's guidelines.

1 hour ago, ChaosRaven said:

The more interesting question would be: would the usage of the word 'Otaku' be okay in a translation? Because it's most certainly not an English word, even if there's a huge Wikipedia article about it. And who exactly decides what's okay to use in an English translation? If the word or term can be found in the Oxford Dictionary - or Wikipedia?

 I originally referred to Wikipedia in my previous post because the then-current discussion concerned it. I don't think it has very much importance or relevance in terms of translating something. Technically, any of the terms we discussed are "okay" to use in an English translation. If there was a hard guidebook on translating a visual novel I'd slap it out right here and say, "Oh, it seems you're correct" or the inverse. Personally I think what's important is that the ultimate translation convey meaning in the clearest way possible to the largest amount of English readers, not just people familiar with Japanese anime culture. I would have been completely lost when I played through STEINS;GATE as a western fellow unfamiliar with these sorts of terms had it not been for the glossary of terms... perhaps having such a guide is a decent compromise?

Thanks for your response, in any case!

EDIT: To clarify, I don't think either of us are absolutely "correct". Translators can and do choose from both original Japanese terms and attempts at localising them. Regardless of which one they choose, one camp of visual novel fans will be upset.

Edited by Zander
I didn't mean to come across as passive-aggressive oops
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37 minutes ago, novurdim said:

It doesn't, lolicon originates from a really famous western term lolita complex, not any other way around, it's nearly not the same case as with those cute brothers and sisters ._.

Yes, it's from that lolita book. But the Wiki article was so focused on the Japanese lolicon that I got a bit confused. :amane:

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