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On h-scenes in VNs

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23 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Most of it is complaining though. I have a feeling that those REALLY interested in the topic might be more reluctant to speak up. :D

I will be the sole defender of H-scenes for fap purposes if necessary.

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21 minutes ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

I will be the sole defender of H-scenes for fap purposes if necessary.

I thus name you Sir NowItsAngeTime of Fuwa, Knight of Hentai, Defender of Fapping. Speaking for the silent majority that takes full advantage of their favorite medium. :3

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I have to ask this: do all users who say H scenes are bad actually has/had a relationship in real life? Sex is exactly like eroges show: people start fucking for no reason, moan non-stop and usually it ends in two or three minutes.

 

On topic, there are many, many threads with the same discussion, and I hope this one doesn't end like those. H Scenes are important as long as you're interested on them. Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not, and depending on which, I read them or skip them entirely. I understand that many if not most sex scenes on eroges are there only to increase sales, and we have to consider that story-oriented VNs are way younger than sex-focused ones.

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I will make no effort in grandstanding by trying to defend my position by conjuring up some elaborate excuse, I simply like h-scenes because I'm a horny bastard. 

I've recently gotten allot of shit for rating some eroge higher than story centric visual novels on vndb. No, I don't think Funbag Fantasy has a better story than Kara no Shoujo, but they weren't aiming for the same goals. You can't rate a comedy on the same grounds as a action film, just as you can't yell at Stephen Hawking for being shit at baseball. I know that isn't what this topic is about, but I wanted to preemptively explain that before getting to the meat of the matter. 

The real question is how to feel about sex scenes in story focused visual novels. Well personally I like them, I'm the type of person that after becoming a fan of characters in fiction I look up fanfiction and doujin about them fucking. Having the porn in the source material beforehand is something I find incredibly convenient and a major time saver. Do I expect people to be fine with this? Absolutely not and I completely understand why people would dislike these elements in visual novels. Not everyone has a masturbation addiction to help deal with the condition known as "living", some people drink alcohol instead...... or they just like a great story to distract them from life. 

I find the question of whether "sex" can be used effectively as a narrative tool to be an interesting one. It's pretty common for people to cry out that an H-scene is "unrealistic", which always baffled me. We don't cry fowl when a FPS doesn't include a 40+ hour rehabilitation simulator after the player character is shot and no one complains that half of rom-coms don't end with a sloppy divorce. Fiction will always contradict reality on some level. I have never believed that a sex scene in any medium was "realistic" aside from Harry Turtledove books and quite frankly it kinda sucks. Realistic depictions of sex without dramatic flourishes are no different from depicting eating a meal or getting over a cold, it's just another boring part of life. 

Would I like more story centric visual novels with sex scenes integrated better in their plots? Absolutely, but as I stated before it's not that easy. Sex is a relatively boring act as a plot device, without going into FSN territory and inviting contrived reasons sex is required, it can only be used as a plot device in stories of youthful indiscretion, Romeo/Juliet rip-offs, and stories of jealously. In all three instances sex isn't even necessarily required and could be substituted with something else. Sex isn't as big as a deal as society makes it. Oddly enough I think the horrible act of rape is a much better plot device and something that society needs to be better and handling. This act of abject evil opens the door to a menagerie of storytelling opportunities, however if the writer isn't incredibly skilled and knowledgeable it will come across as a cheap shock tactic that is "trying too hard". 

 

Edited by Soulless Watcher

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31 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I thus name you Sir NowItsAngeTime of Fuwa, Knight of Hentai, Defender of Fapping. Speaking for the silent majority that takes full advantage of their favorite medium. :3

I will proudly wear this badge

 

13 minutes ago, Silvz said:

I have to ask this: do all users who say H scenes are bad actually has/had a relationship in real life? Sex is exactly like eroges show: people start fucking for no reason, moan non-stop and usually it ends in two or three minutes.

 

On topic, there are many, many threads with the same discussion, and I hope this one doesn't end like those. H Scenes are important as long as you're interested on them. Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not, and depending on which, I read them or skip them entirely. I understand that many if not most sex scenes on eroges are there only to increase sales, and we have to consider that story-oriented VNs are way younger than sex-focused ones.

I'm a 100% Extra Virgin Olive Oil dude and I love H scenes.

I've lived with my brother and his fg and I dunno about other people but they definitely have sex for at LEAST 15-20 minutes (but it includes foreplay and stuff) my brother has been pretty open at least to me how his sex life works.

We (half-)joked about hentai and how it compares to real sex and well outside the Japanese style high pitched moaning and the girl narrating everything that's happening it's not really that much different (but my brother still doesn't really get off to hentai, he's tried it and still much prefers 3D pr0n)

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16 minutes ago, Silvz said:

I have to ask this: do all users who say H scenes are bad actually has/had a relationship in real life? Sex is exactly like eroges show: people start fucking for no reason, moan non-stop and usually it ends in two or three minutes.

Well, yeah, but people in real life are also generally dull characters who go on living uninteresting lives. I guess you kinda expect some more from fiction? 

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2 minutes ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

I consider humans and fictional characters interesting in different ways.

-Humans-are-so-interesting-death-note-33

(actual footage of rl Ange)

 

Anyway, my opinion. For me, they are never useful for the plot. But I read them anyway, because why not? I don't skip pages of a book I like just because I find some parts useless. If it's bad, I can laugh. If it's good, I can enjoy. If it's painfully boring, I just endure.

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Hmm, where do I start?

H scenes are one of the reasons I got into VN's (one of the reasons I picked up Grisaia no Kajitsu in that Steam sale earlier this year). And obviously I enjoyed that game far more for it's plot (and feels and characters) more then anything else. The H scenes were just nice bonus material. Also ...... I don't get much actual experience, so I've learned far more about foreplay then I would have otherwise (I actually find the foreplay more interesting for some reason).

And, there's also the censorship issue. Grisaia no Kajitsu all ages censors far more then just the H scenes apparently. For some VN's, the +18 version is the better version, merely because of the censorship.

Now some games do overdo it on the H scenes. Wagamama High Spec comes to mind for me. Though that game is a parody on manga and eroge in general, so that's kinda the "point" of that VN. Just like it's obvious what the "point" of Nekopara would be (I havn't played that yet xD).

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45 minutes ago, r0xm2n said:

Also ...... I don't get much actual experience, so I've learned far more about foreplay then I would have otherwise (I actually find the foreplay more interesting for some reason).

Using anime as a basis for reality in terms of sex is probably not advised =P.  I Probably did the same when I was 17/18/19 tho

Edited by FinalCloud

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33 minutes ago, FinalCloud said:

Using anime as a basis for reality in terms of sex is probably not advised =P.  I Probably did the same when I was 17/18/19 tho

Yep, like foreplay for a girl is more likely take MUCH longer than the 1-3 minutes it takes in VNs.

Unless your girl is THAT sensitive (which could be possible but not likely) she's not coming or getting that wet that easily.

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Well, these are erotic Japanese games so of course they will have H scenes. They are called eroge for a reason. The way I see it, if you don't like H scenes then don't read the visual novel. You are free to choose, but don't ever force your views of H content onto other people. Some may not like H scenes, but A LOT do. I see forums and comment sections in articles all the time where people are upset due to lack of H content and even censorship (mosaics).

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4 minutes ago, Erogamer said:

Well, these are erotic Japanese games so of course they will have H scenes. They are called eroge for a reason. The way I see it, if you don't like H scenes then don't read the visual novel. You are free to choose, but don't ever force your views of H content onto other people. Some may not like H scenes, but A LOT do. I see forums and comment sections in articles all the time where people are upset due to lack of H content and even censorship (mosaics).

I dont think the term VN (as is the subject of the thread) automatically makes a game an eroge. Obviously if you rage about finding a h-scene in an eroge it is kinda stupid. But the discussion is more about if these games need h-scenes or not (and what the aforementioned h-scenes can add to a game, if anything.).

Edited by FinalCloud

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3 minutes ago, Erogamer said:

Well, these are erotic Japanese games so of course they will have H scenes. They are called eroge for a reason. The way I see it, if you don't like H scenes then don't read the visual novel. You are free to choose, but don't ever force your views of H content onto other people. Some may not like H scenes, but A LOT do. I see forums and comment sections in articles all the time where people are upset due to lack of H content and even censorship (mosaics).

Aren't you just as bad by saying "don't you ever"? He's free to have his opinion, as are you. Don't get your tits in a twist because someone insulted your fap material. 

Edited by Stormwolf

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I find the western VN fanbase's attitude towards H-scenes quite fascinating. I can't think of any other type of media where releasing most of a game with some content cut out, then releasing a patch, (which is now often being called "DLC" by wester localization companies,) is the norm. DLC in itself is not new. Actually taking out a part of what was originally in the game, selling it separately, and calling that DLC is very strange. If this was done to a standard video game, people would most likely be quite angry. (Again, refering to the actual removal of content meant to be in the game from the start, then charging people for said content with the "DLC" tag.)

Secondly, the need to find "story relevance" in H-scenes is quite perplexing to me. Of course, in a small handful of cases porn in VNs will be relevant to the story, but... that's not the norm, not at all. But, why would anyone think it would be? It's porn, what did you expect?
That being said, people's opinion that if it isn't important to the story, we can actually REMOVE IT from the game is even more confusing. There will always be things in fiction that doesn't drive the story forward directly. Can you honestly say that every single sentence in a book supports the story? Every joke, every conversation, every line of narration? That every single second of a movie does the same?
The idea that just because the H in an eroge, something that was in the original version, isn't resulting in crazy plot developments we can remove it, is objectively weird.

It's crazy just how big a difference there is on this point when comparing the Japanese and western VN fanbase. In Japan, the general idea I have gotten from the fans is; An all-ages game? Ehh, no H?
In fact, non-H games often gets items in the special edition clearly meant to fill that "No H?!" gap. Lewd artbooks, tapestries and so on.
It's interesting to see just how big of a difference there is between the fans on the two sides of the market.

 

Oh and my personal stance on H-scenes in VNs in general; I like them there. If the game has them originally, I want them there. If the game has the approach of Eden* and Corona Blossom with optional H, I personally always choose the H version. (And, I do have to admit, if the game is all-ages, I often do find myself wanting a couple of H-scenes.)

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17 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

Secondly, the need to find "story relevance" in H-scenes is quite perplexing to me. Of course, in a small handful of cases porn in VNs will be relevant to the story, but... that's not the norm, not at all. But, why would anyone think it would be? It's porn, what did you expect?

Wouldnt this imply that all VN's are porn first and a story second? We arent really talking about Nukige here, and if it is nukige most of us kind of accept that we arent going to get that much of a story and that there will be lots of random sex scenes.

17 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

That being said, people's opinion that if it isn't important to the story, we can actually REMOVE IT from the game is even more confusing.

No, people are saying that if it doesnt fit in the story and feels like it has been hamfisted in to allow random Otaku to fap to it, why is it in the game. Not that it absolutely has to be important. That being said I personally prefer a h-scene to have some kind of meaning. Lots of VNs are trying to tell a pretty deep and meaningful story, what use is there for a bunch of pointless sex scenes. As an alternative example take the Lord of the Rings trilogy (a very different example I know and impossible given the market that it is being released for), but a bunch of sex scenes randomly popping up in there with little context would just cheapen the story and that is the same regardless of the media type. Eroge style LOTR, Eowyn reverse rap$s Aragorn any one?

17 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

In fact, non-H games often gets items in the special edition clearly meant to fill that "No H?!" gap. Lewd artbooks, tapestries and so on.

I do remember googling some images for Mitsuru from Persona 3 back in the day to satisfy my own curiosity, and the fact I thought she was hot. But I wouldnt have wanted sex scenes with her in the game.

Edited by FinalCloud

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13 minutes ago, FinalCloud said:

Wouldnt this imply that all VN's are porn first and a story second? We arent really talking about Nukige here, and if it is nukige most of us kind of accept that we arent going to get that much of a story and that there will be lots of random sex scenes.

Heh, that's not what it implies at all, no. :P Think you misunderstood the comment.

I'm saying porn often doesn't have story relevance. I didn't say the story isn't relevant if there is porn. Not sure how you drew that conclusion.

With most popular VNs being eroge, most VNs do have H-scenes originally, but that doesn't make them nukige.

13 minutes ago, FinalCloud said:

No, people are saying that if it doesnt fit in the story and feels like it has been hamfisted in to allow random Otaku to fap to it, why is it in the game. Not that it absolutely has to be important. That being said I personally prefer a h-scene to have some kind of meaning. Lots of VNs are trying to tell a pretty deep and meaningful story, what use is there for a bunch of pointless sex scenes.

Because it is, and that's it, really. Visual novels specifically very often has H-scenes, even the story driven ones. That's just kind of how the market developed. It started many years ago, and it stuck with the market.
I agree that H having some form of importance is nice, but at the end of the day, that won't always be the case. You literally have the reason in your own comment: Yes, it literally serves for fap material for otakus a lot of the time. In fact, like was mentioned somewhere above, lots of VNs are literally self-insertion material for otakus. That's just the form of media VNs are.

13 minutes ago, FinalCloud said:

Take the Lord of the Rings trilogy, a bunch of sex scenes randomly popping up in there with little context would just cheapen the story. Eroge style LOTR, Eowyn reverse rap$s Aragorn any one?

I uh... I have no words.

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35 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

I find the western VN fanbase's attitude towards H-scenes quite fascinating.

Well... I usurp myself the right to be unreasonably romantic and skip the explicit content unless I think it's a crucial part of the experience. I simply like the romance in VNs and mostly don't care about porn, so I often don't mind it being gone. It might be a cultural thing, but I think it's more about personal preference.

But I also think that the more choice people have when it goes to how they want to experience a story the better - people should not be forced to receive incomplete product because other might find some parts of it offensive/uncomfortable. But I also don't see a reason why all-age versions shouldn't exist or should be seen as necessarily inferior. There might exist a way to balance everyone interests, but that would need major distribution platforms giving up on censorship (won't happen any time soon). 

Edited by Plk_Lesiak

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12 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

Heh, that's not what it implies at all, no. :P Think you misunderstood the comment.

I dont think I misunderstood what I read, but maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

3 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

I uh... I have no words.

The Point I was making is that: A serious and good story will only ever be devalued by tasteless, poorly executed sex scenes.

8 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

You literally have the reason in your own comment: Yes, it literally serves for fap material for otakus a lot of the time. In fact, like was mentioned somewhere above, lots of VNs are literally self-insertion material for otakus. That's just the form of media visual VNs are.

By self insertion you mean roleplaying essentially? I think that alot of people roleplay a VN protagonist, not only the major Otaku's. But it isnt like roleplaying a VN character means they are getting laid IRL lol. I personally roleplay a protagonist, doesnt mean I need to watch 20 minutes of "girls are so soft" "your breasts are soft" "mmmm" "onee chan your penis is so..." oh wait.

 

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28 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Well... I usurp myself the right to be unreasonably romantic and skip the explicit content unless I think it's a crucial part of the experience. I simply like the romance in VNs and mostly don't care about porn, so I often don't mind it being gone. It might be a cultural thing, but I think it's more about personal preference.

But I also think that the more choice people have when it goes to how they want to experience a story the better - people should not be forced to receive incomplete product because other might find some parts of it offensive/uncomfortable. But I also don't see a reason why all-age versions shouldn't exist or should be seen as necessarily inferior. There might exist a way to balance everyone interests, but that would need major distribution platforms giving up on censorship (won't happen any time soon). 

Well said.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think the setup the west has now is pretty good. People who want H gets it, (most of the time,) and people who don't want it has an option as well. The only vexing part of it being when X version comes out before Y version. (For example, the way it has taken over half a year and counting for Grisaia no Rakuen to come out in its 18+ form.) The system isn't perfected yet, but it's at least good everyone gets what they want in the end.

I still do find the system fascinating, though. (The cutting of content technically "meant" to be in the game.) But, it's working, so hey, can't complain.

33 minutes ago, Fiddle said:

funny-gif-frodo-ring.gif

Fiddle, what would this place do without you?

Never leave us, please. We need your memes.

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12 hours ago, Funyarinpa said:

Sex scenes in eroge (broadly speaking) are not necessary to establish a believable relationship because the relationships to be established are often just as superficial as the characters and disputed h-scenes in question. The scenes themselves are also so fucking generic that I could spit out 50 different lines and you wouldn't get which VN I pulled them all from. Just about every single one works out the same. 

...I don't think I can recall a single case where an explicitly written out consensual sex scene (rape/assault is often used for characterization/shock value, and isn't what we're talking about here) meaningfully develops a duo's relationship in a VN.

You can't recall a single case where an explicitly written out consensual sex scene meaningfully developed someone's relationship?  Well, I'll admit they're very very rare.  But I can name two games where this happens off the top of my head: Crescendo and Nocturnal Illusion.  Coincidentally, these two games also actually don't fall into two other common pitraps: 1) the girls' personalities don't disappear during sex (usually replaced with a broken record repeatedly demanding more pizza), and 2) The scenes themselves aren't ridiculously generic.

Yes, the vast majority of the time, sex scenes are there as porn for the players, who can be expected to want to see characters they like get naked.  And honestly, both of these games only manage this feat with one or two scenes.  But they do in fact pull it off.

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