t japan vs SakuraGame

[Plk_Lesiak]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:44 AM, Narcosis said:

I think you got me wrong. I wasn't talking about Fuwanovel. I wrote about western community in general. Fuwanovel is a non-factor on scale of toxicity; it's a nursery for fans with both relatively nice and helpful people. Stepping outside is equal to throwing yourself off into an abyss of despair.

I'm also happy about vn's getting more and more exposition nowadays, but it's not really the kind of exposition I'd really love to see, because it's focused on titles that are - to put it bluntly - not deserving it at all. Poor games. Or perhaps not bad in their own way, but really mediocre and bland. Those "mainstream" vn's are exactly tailored towards your casual steam users, who like japanese media. Meanwhile, good games, that really deserve attention get neglected, out of many different factors. A lot of people aren't even willing to give them a chance, because they are too long, because they cost too much, because they aren't about cute waifus bickering around etc. The list goes on and on. They prefer to buy those short, shallow games toppled with censored porn over actual story-driven vn's, because they are more willing to throw away 5-10$ for a couple hours of fun, rather than pay 20-35$ for full length games which are often at least 25-35+ hours long, present much higher quality and bring more entertainment. If only such poor games get so much reception and become a store front for vn's, people start to treat them as a standard, which not only lowers the overall quality reception, but decreases the quality of potential future games as well. If devs can escape with such creations and earn a lot in the process, why would they bother making anything more ambitious? This is exactly what happened to the japanese market. It turns potentially artistic endeavours into cheap, mass produced knock-offs with sole prospect to earn as much as possible; commercialism, ho. For a while it's what a lot of publishers have been doing so far, but I don't want people to connect the word "visual novel" only with games such as Nekopara, KARAKARA or Lovekami. There's a place for all those games, but it's simply unfair when only one small group gets a positive treatment, while the rest sinks into obscurity.

But isn't it the same with pretty much every form of media nowadays? No genuinely great movie can beat Transformers and that recycled mess of a Star Wars episode we've got lately when it goes to profitability. But that doesn't mean good films aren't made - and that we can't see many of them in the same cinemas that get filled with people looking for mindless entertainment. A platform might be full if filth but still also host valuable products and give them more positive exposure they could hope for without it - I still think that's the case with Steam. It's not really a zero-sum game, because people watching/reading complete shit in most cases won't be that interested in more demanding stuff anyway.

Most people on Steam won't touch the "Weeb crap" because of their biases (which, BTW, are not a new thing, more like decades old), but those with enough knowledge about Japanese media or enough curiosity will find their way to high-quality stuff as long as it's available. And that limited interest can make the effort of basic localisation and putting it for sale worth it - let's not kid ourselves, Western markets (and even PC market in general) are not a priority for JP developers and only affects their policies in minor ways. They won't all switch to producing Nekopara sequels because of Steam. But they might bring us more English versions of various products because of Steam.

And really, is JP market that much better? Even the shitty western VNs like Sakura series only mimic what was popular for ages in Japan. There's ton of bad, questionable, laughably bad VNs and Dating Sims that sells tons of copies in Japan, it's just not what we, as admittedly a bunch of niche-audience snobs, focus on. :]

 

On 11/10/2017 at 10:02 AM, Kirashi said:

I may be out of topic but a quick question:

So far, Sakura game released their game on steam, then released a 18 patch later. But I think I read somewhere that steam won't allow that anymore (I don't remember where, I am not sure that's true). But if that's the case, I guess it can be trouble for their business right?

I think Steam still allows it as long as the patch is only available off-platform and not linked in the game itself. If I'm wrong though it would be a huge problems for many VN publishers, that rely on this unlockable content to make any sales (even with some Japanese games - I'm not sure if the recently mentioned Nekopara would make any sense without Hentai scenes - if it does I would like to know BTW, because I've always though of these games as overly-elaborate set ups for porn segments :p).

Edited November 10, 2017 by Plk_Lesiak

[Kenshin_sama]

2 hours ago, Narcosis said:

I think you got me wrong. I wasn't talking about Fuwanovel. I wrote about western community in general. Fuwanovel is a non-factor on scale of toxicity; it's a nursery for fans with both relatively nice and helpful people. Stepping outside is equal to throwing yourself off into an abyss of despair.

Oh, oops, I wasn't talking about Fuwanovel either. I didn't state it outright, but I was mainly referring to Steam. I seriously need to fix that writing habit...

Fuwanovel is the only forum I've come across that doesn't irk me very frequently, and is generally pleasant to interact with.

2 hours ago, Narcosis said:

I'm also happy about vn's getting more and more exposition nowadays, but it's not really the kind of exposition I'd really love to see, because it's focused on titles that are - to put it bluntly - not deserving it at all. Poor games. Or perhaps not bad in their own way, but really mediocre and bland. Those "mainstream" vn's are exactly tailored towards your casual steam users, who like japanese media. Meanwhile, good games, that really deserve attention get neglected, out of many different factors. A lot of people aren't even willing to give them a chance, because they are too long, because they cost too much, because they aren't about cute waifus bickering around etc. The list goes on and on. They prefer to buy those short, shallow games toppled with censored porn over actual story-driven vn's, because they are more willing to throw away 5-10$ for a couple hours of fun, rather than pay 20-35$ for full length games which are often at least 25-35+ hours long, present much higher quality and bring more entertainment. If only such poor games get so much reception and become a store front for vn's, people start to treat them as a standard, which not only lowers the overall quality reception, but decreases the quality of potential future games as well. If devs can escape with such creations and earn a lot in the process, why would they bother making anything more ambitious? This is exactly what happened to the japanese market. It turns potentially artistic endeavours into cheap, mass produced knock-offs with sole prospect to earn as much as possible; commercialism, ho. For a while it's what a lot of publishers have been doing so far, but I don't want people to connect the word "visual novel" only with games such as Nekopara, KARAKARA or Lovekami. There's a place for all those games, but it's simply unfair when only one small group gets a positive treatment, while the rest sinks into obscurity.

Very good points here. That being said, I don't think it'll hurt the market too too much. If we were to take a VN like Dies Irae, for example, which was marketed as a game with a free common route and 2 separate payments to break up the pricing a little, I think the publishers did an excellent job addressing the stigma associated with high-priced VNs on the Steam platform. Imo, this is an excellent example of how to adapt a product to a hostile market. I don't know how well it was able to do as far as actually selling the product, but Steamspy reports that at least 58,000+ people own the game, which is quite a step up from Grisaia (34,000+) and Clannad (40,000+). Even if that figure doesn't translate to great  sales figures, it will generate conversation and interest, which can only serve to further its long-term profitability.

It is fairly disappointing that games like Nekopara (381,000+) are performing so much better than the more serious games. Not that I'm upset at how well it's doing at all since it does seem to have some high quality fanservice, but I'd rather see quality stories take the lead on sales instead. I don't think this kind of thing is unusual even in mainstream games either, if the f2p mobile market is anything to go by.

However, I don't think the presence of supergiants in the VN market will ever cripple the desired profitability of a good niche. Even if big name companies start making their way toward games with widespread appeal, there will be someone to fill in that gap and continue to push out games that a niche market will want to buy (the classic gaming niche is a great example of this). As long as rich, story-driven visual novels make a fair amount of money, there will be a market for them. The only real downside here is that producers won't be urged to put them out as often as they should, but at least they're easier to appreciate when they do come out. Besides, it's not like we didn't have a similar problem before Steam when nukige were taking up licensing slots as well (and I'm pretty sure they still are, lol).

Edited November 10, 2017 by Kenshin_sama

[Narcosis]

Just to add, before people start a crusade to burn me on a stake - Nekopara isn't a bad game. In fact, it's really good at what it wants to be and I love it - both because of it's outstanding quality and effort Sayori puts into it. Still, I want to see more serious games and those, that put a lot more focus on telling great stories, rather than just offering a couple fun moments with cute characters that cause diabetes.

1 hour ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

And really, is JP market that much better? Even the shitty western VNs like Sakura series only mimic what was popular for ages in Japan. There's ton of bad, questionable, laughably bad VNs and Dating Sims that sells tons of copies in Japan, it's just not what we, as admittedly a bunch of niche-audience snobs, focus on. :]

That's something, you should already be able to answer yourself, judging by your knowledge. To keep things short - no, it isn't. The japanese eroge industry is currently facing a crisis of sorts and all I can do is hope the issues which appeared there won't suddenly spread to our growing market as well. Everything depends on our western creators and japanese developers, trying to stand on this new ground.

56 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I'm not sure if the recently mentioned Nekopara would make any sense without Hentai scenes - if it does I would like to know BTW, because I've always though of these games as overly-elaborate set ups for porn segments :p).

It wouldn't. Nekopara is a moege/charage hybrid. It doesn't revolve on storyline, but events and characters, focusing on relationships that form between them. So you're not wrong by saying it's an excuse for porn

Edited November 10, 2017 by Narcosis

[Akshay]

13 hours ago, Narcosis said:

Nekopara isn't a bad game.

This game single handedly gave me a catgirl fetish.

And I actually got a little teary eyed at the coconut scene. (vol 2).

For a VN of this size it is actually very good.

[Plk_Lesiak]

1 minute ago, Akshay said:

This game single handedly gave me a catgirl fetish.

And I actually got a little teary eyed at the coconut scene. (vol 2).

For a VN of this size it is actually very good.

... but will anyone believe me that I bought it for the story?

Not that I care what people would think at this point, my Steam library is forever tainted. I actually mostly play all-age versions of VNs as long as they're available, but I've felt that with Nekopara would be getting less an equivalent of a well-written Moe anime and more a neutered porn movie. Now I'm starting to have doubts again...

(sorry for leading this OT, let's say it's still about the situation of VNs on Steam :D) 

[Narcosis]

4 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I actually mostly play all-age versions of VNs as long as they're available, but I've felt that with Nekopara would be getting less an equivalent of a well-written Moe anime and more a neutered porn movie. Now I'm starting to have doubts again...

That's one of the problems at the moment, in regards to what I wrote about earlier. It would be an entirely different thing, if we'd get completely uncut versions of the original games, but instead we often get badly translated, originally porn-filled games with said content removed completely for the english release, their stories left unchanged. Where's the point? The original notion was those were supposed to be porn games, not story-driven vn's with an added touch of erotic content. When you get games like these, you have all the rights to feel annoyed and blame devs for mishandling their games, all in order to reach out to a wider audience at the cost of their own name. It's only obvious a lot of fans will complain and lose their respect towards the developer in such case.

[Nandemonai]

I've seen Nekopara called a nukige (a pizza delivery simulator) before.  It's not.  I mean, yes, the sex scenes are a big part of it.  But there's too much attention paid to giving the girls real personalities and to the setting.  They're more moege/ charage in my book.

As such, they wouldn't be too bad without the H.  Nekopara is not super great, without the art (and especially the animation tech) nobody would care.  (The original Nekopara's trailers actually made a point of showing off the movement, because Nekopara was the first game to use the tech.)  But it actually has good enough writing to be successful, where something like Neko-nin Ex Heart does not.

[Kirashi]

What is the page of their vndb company? I can't find it anymore on internet

[1P1A]

54 minutes ago, Kirashi said:

What is the page of their vndb company? I can't find it anymore on internet

SakuraGame

tJapan

[Veshurik]

Guys, I think that every game (how badly of how good is it - not necessary) deserves the best and right translation.

Because the wrong translation ruins everything. I really don't understand how people can accept SakuraGame products with their machine translation works. Insane. Just how? Seems like VN is only for CG, OMG. Text is unnecessary, ha-ha. Oh, god...

Seriously, developers don't care about TL quality? Why? If I'd be a developer and find out that... Good bye, publishers...

 

So, SakuraGame specially choose little VN, unnamed companies, for releasing bunch of them on Steam? How badly... I really don't understand what happens with VN community now...

 

 

[Dreamysyu]

17 minutes ago, Veshurik said:

So, SakuraGame specially choose little VN, unnamed companies, for releasing bunch of them on Steam? How badly... I really don't understand what happens with VN community now...

Well, people are trying to make money with as little initial investment as possible. That's all.

[bakauchuujin]

On 11.11.2017 at 9:57 PM, Nandemonai said:

I've seen Nekopara called a nukige (a pizza delivery simulator) before.  It's not.  I mean, yes, the sex scenes are a big part of it.  But there's too much attention paid to giving the girls real personalities and to the setting.  They're more moege/ charage in my book.

While I agree that nekopara isn't a nukige I am not sure about the part that a nukige can't pay attention to the personality and setting of the characters. For instance Eroge! H mo Game mo Kaihatsu Zanmai and Imouto Paradise! seem to do a decent job at this. They aren't the deepest stories with the best made characters, but I would say the effort that went into making the characters and setting is at about the same level as nekopara.

[Nandemonai]

It's about how much screentime is devoted to these things, and how well the experience holds up without the sex scenes.  In Imopara the girls might have well defined personalities, but they play a minor role in the game and most of the time is spent sleeping with your imouto(s).  And nobody would pay even $5 for a version of Imopara with no h-scenes.

[Nier]

The art for this game is very well done considering it is from a doujin group, reminds me oif the art style of Killer is Dead.

[Veshurik]

On 19.01.2018 at 11:56 PM, Dreamysyu said:

Well, people are trying to make money with as little initial investment as possible. That's all.

But they can do it with good TL, not with machine... That's what I don't like.

[TheCrimsonFucker]

9 minutes ago, Veshurik said:

But they can do it with good TL, not with machine... That's what I don't like.

But which needs less money to make? Machine TL or good TL? As long as people buy it and they can get away with it they will do it. Thats how most companies work nowadays sadly. And the small circles who make these types of games are happy if they can reach more poeple.