Japanese Help Thread

[dowolf]

So with the -tari form, while it can be used for shyness (for instance, "What did you do last night?" / "I ate, and slept, and..." would be 食べたり寝たりして、そして...), I would argue that's not its primary purpose. Rather, it's used for making incomplete lists of actions (playing back into the 例えば at the start of the sentence you've provided). For more details, see http://www.jgram.org/pages/viewOne.php?tagE=tari+suru+form

So I would render the sentence as "For instance, I yearned for the happiness I've never had." I'm tempted to tack on an "and..." at the end, but whether or not that makes sense depends on the surrounding lines.

[Parallel Pain]

So with the -tari form, while it can be used for shyness (for instance, "What did you do last night?" / "I ate, and slept, and..." would be 食べたり寝たり、そして...), I would argue that's not its primary purpose. Rather, it's used for making incomplete lists of actions (playing back into the 例えば at the start of the sentence you've provided). For more details, see http://www.jgram.org/pages/viewOne.php?tagE=tari+suru+form

So I would render the sentence as "For instance, I yearned for the happiness I've never had." I'm tempted to tack on a "and..." at the end, but whether or not that makes sense depends on the surrounding lines.

[dowolf]

I'd argue that usage is more uncertainty than shyness (and is exactly why I'm tempted to throw the "and..." at the end). edit: Though I guess it's uncertainty in the sense of uncertainty how it'll be received, so that's why you used "shyness"? *shrug* Maybe putting it as "yearning for the [...]" would better preserve the incompleteness of the original.

But I digress. I just wanted to make sure Deep Blue saw the more standard usage of -tari, since he didn't seem to be familiar with it.

[Deep Blue]

人がソレに求めるものなんて、様々だ。

それは例えば、自分の居場所だったり。

例えば、まだ見ぬ幸せへの憧れだったり。

例えば、地図の無いこの旅路の、道標だったり。

はたまた、理由なんて詮索するのが無骨な、純真だったり。

――自分が自分である為に他人を求め、

自分が幸せである為に他人の幸せを考える。

(here is the full dialog)

 

I did understand the meaning of what he is saying (in the context he is speaking is easy to get what he was saying) but know I get what tari means. I'm doing jlpt 4 right now so it's a bit ahead of me that part but that link comes really useful, thank a lot both of you

 

EDIT:

it says that you cannot finish a sentence with tari :/

[dowolf]

それは例えば、自分の居場所だったり。

例えば、まだ見ぬ幸せへの憧れだったり。

例えば、地図の無いこの旅路の、道標だったり。

はたまた、理由なんて詮索するのが無骨な、純真だったり。

――自分が自分である為に他人を求め、

(here is the full dialog)

 

I did understand the meaning of what he is saying (in the context he is speaking is easy to get what he was saying) but know I get what tari means. I'm doing jlpt 4 right now so it's a bit ahead a me that part but that link comes really useful, thank a lot both of you

 

EDIT:

it says that you cannot finish a sentence with tari :/

[Deep Blue]

edited, btw is a he no a she

[Parallel Pain]

Ya I used shyness instead uncertainty because I can't see how for example (heh) you can be unsure whether drawing cars is a hobby or not.

Though rather than shyness it's really just a form to say "I am not really sure if it's okay to share this information" either because it could be wrong or because I'm not sure if there's a social stigma on it.

Though in any case it looks very much like the list form haha.

Looks like someone is listing, very poetically, why something is his reason for living.

Or something

[Conjueror]

I'd argue that usage is more uncertainty than shyness (and is exactly why I'm tempted to throw the "and..." at the end). edit: Though I guess it's uncertainty in the sense of uncertainty how it'll be received, so that's why you used "shyness"? *shrug* Maybe putting it as "yearning for the [...]" would better preserve the incompleteness of the original.

But I digress. I just wanted to make sure Deep Blue saw the more standard usage of -tari, since he didn't seem to be familiar with it.

It is usually perceived as rude to be "certain" in Japan, so shyer people try to sound as uncertain as possible (even when talking about their hobbies that they surely are certain about). So, it's literally "uncertainty" but the nuance is "shyness" most of the time when dattari comes up.

Too bad the actual script turned out to be just a simple list, though. xD

[Sinon]

Tari(たり、）In this case means something like "it could be". Although what stated before is all correct I'm assuming in this context it is used as it could be.

人がソレに求めるものなんて、様々だ。(Im too lazy to translate this part)

それは例えば、自分の居場所だったり。For example, it could be a place for yourself,

例えば、まだ見ぬ幸せへの憧れだったり。For example, it could be an admiration towards an unseen happiness,

例えば、地図の無いこの旅路の、道標だったり。For example, it could be a landmark to this map less journey,

はたまた、理由なんて詮索するのが無骨な、純真だったり。Or it could be a reason that is rude to pry as it is just an innocent motive, 

――自分が自分である為に他人を求め、(The rest im once again too lazy to translate)

自分が幸せである為に他人の幸せを考える。

 

P.S 例えば、 I'm pretty sure everyone knows this but for future users who don't know, it means for example.

[storyteller]

Personally, I would leave it out in the translation.

 

What people seek in "it" differs with each person.

Some seek in it a place where they belong.

Some, a vision of happiness they've yet to see.

Some, a signpost for these unmapped roads.

Still some, an innocence, for reasons uncouth to question.

-- Just as we seek others that we may know ourselves;

We seek their happiness that we may find our own.

 

edited with below discussion in mind.

Edited July 8, 2015 by storyteller

[dowolf]

I agree with Storyteller on that.

If I can jump into the reasoning why: Japanese doesn't really mind repetition. You can use the same word over and over again in subsequent sentences and nobody'll bat an eye. In English, unless this is being used for almost poetic purposes (c.f. "But Brutus says he was ambitious, and Brutus is an honorable man" in Mark Antony's funeral speech, where the repetition is what makes the passage so awesome), it's going to be very painful to read. The second reason is similar to how a lot of と思う's should be dropped in English: If I know from context that these are your thoughts, including such "softeners" (I'm sure there's a better word for them) comes off as an extreme lack of confidence in English, while in Japanese it's just not-being-rude.

Although, on the last line, I got the impression the 自分's were referring to the speaker, since it's not dialogue?

(also, please please please please do not use quotes for emphasis in English. That is not how English works >_>)

[Deep Blue]

I love how in japanese language you can repeat the same words over and over again and it's ok to do so and yet if you do it with english for example (in spanish is the same thing) you are tagged as a child or a person who can't speak or write properly, what's the difference? why is it ok in one and bad in the other :/

 

And yeah it is an internal monologue so the jibun is for himself

[storyteller]

I could italicize or bold it but it was just easier for me to put it into quotes.

 

I personally read 自分 as any individual, or the concept of the individual, and not as a particular individual.

The term is not being used by the speaker so much as a reference to himself, but as a contrast to 他人, others.

I went with the 2nd person because doing something like "one seeks others so that one can be one's self" and stuff is just...

IDK. Unexpressive.

 

It should be noted that it's used pretty poetically here, imo.

Such level of repetition only occurs where the parallelism is desired, even in Japanese.

One of my favorite passages from Qualia the Purple works this way.

[Parallel Pain]

What people seek in "it" differs with each person.

Some seek in it a place where they belong.

Some, a vision of happiness they've yet to see.

Some, a signpost for these unmapped roads.

Even some, an innocence, for reasons uncouth to question.

-- Just as, for you to be you, you need others,

You think of happiness of others, so that you can be happy.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaang that is some good translation

[Conjueror]

Personally, I would leave it out in the translation.

 

What people seek in "it" differs with each person.

Some seek in it a place where they belong.

Some, a vision of happiness they've yet to see.

Some, a signpost for these unmapped roads.

Even some, an innocence, for reasons uncouth to question.

-- Just as, for you to be you, you need others,

You think of happiness of others, so that you can be happy.

 

I second Parallel Pain on this: you are dang good!

 

I love how in japanese language you can repeat the same words over and over again and it's ok to do so and yet if you do it with english for example (in spanish is the same thing) you are tagged as a child or a person who can't speak or write properly, what's the difference? why is it ok in one and bad in the other :/

 

And yeah it is an internal monologue so the jibun is for himself

 

It's just how different languages work sometimes, and it's a bane of literary translators everywhere. I hear old languages like Hebrew and Akkadian had tons of repetitions in their writings as well. It just flows well in Japanese (maybe because their words are so easy to rhyme), but sounds really lousy in English, so you have to be very wary of that when tling.

[storyteller]

Thanks.

Though, honestly, it was pure coincidence that those lines just piece together so well in English.

The last two lines could still use work, though.

[Conjueror]

Thanks.

Though, honestly, it was pure coincidence that those lines just piece together so well in English.

The last two lines could still use work, though.

[dowolf]

That's a bit pompous and wordy; it doesn't really fit the tone of the original IMHO, and changes the meaning a fair bit.

Perhaps "We seek others so we may be ourselves; we consider their happiness that we may find bliss."

[Conjueror]

That's a bit pompous and wordy; it doesn't really fit the tone of the original IMHO, and changes the meaning a fair bit.

Perhaps "We seek others so we may be ourselves; we consider their happiness that we may find bliss."

 

Yeah, I guess I went a bit overboard. Your take is probably better in this case.

 

It's a bit hard to tell what voice the author is going for without knowing the context of VN.

[storyteller]

Dowolf's version seem best.

 

It's the opening lines to StarTRain, apparently.

[Deep Blue]

it is I was playing it a a few month ago but I stalled it, since I know a bit more of japanese I started it again and that part bugged me because of the tari, it wasn't hard to figure out what it meant,  I understand it the way sinon put it but without the "it could be" I think his translation is more literal vs the one that storyteller did that looks more poetic, personally I prefer sinon's because I like literal translations.

[Conjueror]

it is I was playing it a a few month ago but I stalled it, since I know a bit more of japanese I started it again and that part bugged me because of the tari, it wasn't hard to figure out what it meant,  I understand it the way sinon put it but without the "it could be" I think his translation is more literal vs the one that storyteller did that looks more poetic, personally I prefer sinon's because I like literal translations.

 

Well, storyteller's translation might not be as literal but it's much closer both in meaning and mood to the original script. Literal ≠ closer to the original.

Different cultures interpret "the same words" differently, and it's a job of a good translator to translate nuance/mood/meaning rather than syntax.

 

Literal translation can help if you're studying Japanese syntax, but that's about it (though it seems that's exactly what you're doing in this case, haha).

[Sinon]

Personally, I would leave it out in the translation.

 

What people seek in "it" differs with each person.

Some seek in it a place where they belong.

Some, a vision of happiness they've yet to see.

Some, a signpost for these unmapped roads.

Still some, an innocence, for reasons uncouth to question.

-- Just as we seek others that we may know ourselves;

We seek their happiness that we may find our own.

 

edited with below discussion in mind.

Wow, you are good. I personally prefer this translation over my own

 

it is I was playing it a a few month ago but I stalled it, since I know a bit more of japanese I started it again and that part bugged me because of the tari, it wasn't hard to figure out what it meant,  I understand it the way sinon put it but without the "it could be" I think his translation is more literal vs the one that storyteller did that looks more poetic, personally I prefer sinon's because I like literal translations.

Thanks I guess? but just as you and conjueror mentioned this is a literal translation and note that this is just a rough guideline

[Deep Blue]

I talked about this in the past, and yes maybe it is because I'm learning japanese, but I prefer literal translations because I don't like it when someone changes the meaning of what I'm reading, for example and this is the most common one, the word "ううん" translated as "don't please" "はい" as "yes sir coming right up" I know that "hai" or "uun" can mean something more than a simple "no" or "yes" (context context context ) but I think it's up to the reader to get that meaning as he/she wants to, everything depends on the context and if the reader is smart he/she will get it without any help.

[Sinon]

^I totally agree. Question : according to Japanese textbooks and Japanese TV channels that teach English says "幸せ" means happy. I think it means happiness instead of happy though, which one is correct?