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Ashley Horizon

Dies Irae Questions (SPOILERS)

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Hi.
I just finished Dies Irae lately. There are some places that I do not understand or maybe misunderstand. 
If anyone could clarify for me, that would be great.

Spoiler

1. Is about Ren true identity. After I finished Rea's route, I had this hypothesis.
Lotus and Michael died on the battlefied. Mercurius collected their souls, brought them to the castle to fought there. In the end, Michael won and became Machina. Mercurius created Ren based on Lotus soul.
Is this hypothesis right ? 
2. What is Mercurius's craving ?To die in Marie's embrace-Every other ending is unacceptable ?
3. When Ren and Reinhard are in singularity point in Rea's route. Can anyone explain this part for me ? Ren stabbed Reinhard and Reinhard remembered his old self and becomes stronger by acknowledging his deepest craving ????
4. Reinhard is Mercurius's apotosis. So both of them will die in a battle with each other. Ren is created by Mercurius. Because of that he also reaches his end when Mercurius dies in both Rea's ending ?
5. About Schreiber. He originally is a boy, but wanted to gain love from his mom and dad so he became a girl ?? His mother was jealous of him, so she took his eyes. He then get f**ed in his lost eyes with a customer and became crazy when that customer told him he is a boy. Is that right ?
Thank you in advance.

 

Edited by Ashley Horizon
Wrong format.

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Answers in the box below (from Japanese version)

Spoiler

1.  Lotus, Mikhail, and the others who would make up the base for Makina and Ren were taken to the arena and forced to fight one another using the power of sacred relics until only one remained (a version of the kodoku ritual in Japanese sorcery).  The survivor, a mix of Mikhail and Lotus's personalities (though Mikhail won, technically), became the Makina who was eventually made into the color Black by Reinhardt.  Later on, Mercurius split the two parts of Makina's personality - one that took joy in the moment and one that just wanted it all to end - into two massive souls, with the former becoming the base for Ren when mixed with an element drawn from Mercurius and the latter becoming the Makina who faces off with him in the main game.   Lotus's soul went along and became the base for Ren and can be considered to be his spiritual 'lineage'... and that is also why he can touch Marie without dying.  Lotus's spiritual lineage is necessary to be able to touch Marie (because of whom he is descended from). 

2.  Mercurius wants an end to the cycle he created, but he wants Marie to become the goddess of the world that comes after him, seeing in her a potential for greatness and wonder that he himself never possessed.  He does love her, deeply, intensely, and with an insane fervor.  He sees the fulfillment of that love in being destroyed by her embrace.  Sort of like the ultimate masochistic fantasy, lol.

3.  Ren and Rea knew that the only way to make Reinhardt figure out just where Mercurius lay was by awakening him to his original desires (which were worn by the spiritual knowledge of how many cycles have been repeated, transmitted from Mercurius), and their goal was to have them fight until only one remained, weakened enough for Marie to usurp him.  In the alternate ending, Ren decides to fight as well, but the end result remains more or less the same.  On his own, Reinhardt has a tendency to get wrapped up in the moment, fighting the interesting opponent before him without care for anything else because of his original desire, which is love that is destruction.  As such, Ren and Rea deliberately chose a tactic which was underhanded and wasn't likely to make him hot with a lust for battle (thus allowing him to make a clear-headed recognition of his desire and his self, as well as the fact that Mercurius lay deeper inside the singularity). 

4.  Reinhardt cannot defeat Mercurius, precisely because he is Mercurius's apostis, born from Mercurius himself and thus fundamentally weaker.  His defeat was a foregone conclusion of any one-on-one contest between them.  He and Ren were both granted artificial divinity by Mercurius (through differing means), and if Mercurius dies they cannot exist as gods, and they are thus incapable of taking the throne under their own power without unusual circumstance to intervene (such as the events in KKK).  This all basically ensures that, regardless of who wins, Marie becomes the goddess of the new world, though it is Mercurius's preference that he be the victor, thus allowing him to consummate his 'relationship' with her. 

5.  Schreiber is consumed with conflicting desires to never be touched and to be embraced by a mother figure.  It is made worse by the fact that his own father gouged out his eye and eye-screwed him, and his mother castrated him so she could sell him as a prostitute.  He kept thinking of himself as a girl after the castration because he wanted to please his mother, but after he was called a boy, the delicate balance he'd formed after the castration throughout his days as a prostitute broke and he went completely psychopath.

Edit: lol, this will be my last edit.  This regards Schrieber... Schrieber, in the Japanese version, refers to the client who gouges out his eye as his father, but it is unclear if this is the literal truth, since he is bugfuck insane.  His mother having been a prostitute herself, it is pretty clear he probably didn't know who is actual father was.

A little extra info

Spoiler

Keep in mind that Mercurius is a 'natural-born' deity, an individual who rose to godhood through his own inherent power.  Part of his goal in Dies Irae (a necessary step) was to force Marie to invert from a 'gudou' deity to a 'hadou' deity through contact with Reinhardt after bonding with Ren.  When Marie's nature as a deity is turned inward (gudou), she represents eternity.  However, when it is turned outward, she becomes the cycle of reincarnation and an incarnation of motherly compassion.  Mercurius saw this potential in her early on, and it was that potential that caused him to fall for her. 

 

Just one more

Spoiler

On some of the Japanese forums I sometimes lurk in, one of the popular theories is that Ren, if he had chosen, could have remained himself in the world Marie created, but because he didn't have the romantic love for her (his love being directed to Rea) he chose to discard his power as a deity.  This is actually fairly typical of Ren, since his love is for 'normal, peaceful days' rather than the abnormal.   I described the accepted theory above, but Light and Masada have never actually come out and said it outright.  Also, you should keep in mind that the paths are in a literal chronological order of Kasumi>Kei>Marie>Rea... all the events in the game happened, but only Mercurius remembers (and even his memories are fragmented).   To be clear, the reason Rea's path occurs is because Marie's world of multiple deities didn't eliminate Mercurius, and when it collapsed Mercurius reset things before disaster could take everything (I'm deliberately not spoiling the exact cause of the collapse).  KKK is based off of an alternate history where he failed to reset things before disaster occurred (as a basic rule, two full hadou deities cannot exist in the same universe at once without eventually coming into conflict and one being destroyed/consumed by the other). 

Edit: To append one more bit to the first part of this box, the reason the first theory I gave is the accepted one is because it comes from what Ren said at the last during Rea's alternate ending.

 

Edited by Clephas

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2 hours ago, Clephas said:

Answers in the box below (from Japanese version)

  Reveal hidden contents

1.  Lotus, Mikhail, and the others who would make up the base for Makina and Ren were taken to the arena and forced to fight one another using the power of sacred relics until only one remained (a version of the kodoku ritual in Japanese sorcery).  The survivor, a mix of Mikhail and Lotus's personalities (though Mikhail won, technically), became the Makina who was eventually made into the color Black by Reinhardt.  Later on, Mercurius split the two parts of Makina's personality - one that took joy in the moment and one that just wanted it all to end - into two massive souls, with the former becoming the base for Ren when mixed with an element drawn from Mercurius and the latter becoming the Makina who faces off with him in the main game.   Lotus's soul went along and became the base for Ren and can be considered to be his spiritual 'lineage'... and that is also why he can touch Marie without dying.  Lotus's spiritual lineage is necessary to be able to touch Marie (because of whom he is descended from). 

2.  Mercurius wants an end to the cycle he created, but he wants Marie to become the goddess of the world that comes after him, seeing in her a potential for greatness and wonder that he himself never possessed.  He does love her, deeply, intensely, and with an insane fervor.  He sees the fulfillment of that love in being destroyed by her embrace.  Sort of like the ultimate masochistic fantasy, lol.

3.  Ren and Rea knew that the only way to make Reinhardt figure out just where Mercurius lay was by awakening him to his original desires (which were worn by the spiritual knowledge of how many cycles have been repeated, transmitted from Mercurius), and their goal was to have them fight until only one remained, weakened enough for Marie to usurp him.  In the alternate ending, Ren decides to fight as well, but the end result remains more or less the same.  On his own, Reinhardt has a tendency to get wrapped up in the moment, fighting the interesting opponent before him without care for anything else because of his original desire, which is love that is destruction.  As such, Ren and Rea deliberately chose a tactic which was underhanded and wasn't likely to make him hot with a lust for battle (thus allowing him to make a clear-headed recognition of his desire and his self, as well as the fact that Mercurius lay deeper inside the singularity). 

4.  Reinhardt cannot defeat Mercurius, precisely because he is Mercurius's apostis, born from Mercurius himself and thus fundamentally weaker.  His defeat was a foregone conclusion of any one-on-one contest between them.  He and Ren were both granted artificial divinity by Mercurius (through differing means), and if Mercurius dies they cannot exist as gods, and they are thus incapable of taking the throne under their own power without unusual circumstance to intervene (such as the events in KKK).  This all basically ensures that, regardless of who wins, Marie becomes the goddess of the new world, though it is Mercurius's preference that he be the victor, thus allowing him to consummate his 'relationship' with her. 

5.  Schreiber is consumed with conflicting desires to never be touched and to be embraced by a mother figure.  It is made worse by the fact that his own father gouged out his eye and eye-screwed him, and his mother castrated him so she could sell him as a prostitute.  He kept thinking of himself as a girl after the castration because he wanted to please his mother, but after he was called a boy, the delicate balance he'd formed after the castration throughout his days as a prostitute broke and he went completely psychopath.

Edit: lol, this will be my last edit.  This regards Schrieber... Schrieber, in the Japanese version, refers to the client who gouges out his eye as his father, but it is unclear if this is the literal truth, since he is bugfuck insane.  His mother having been a prostitute herself, it is pretty clear he probably didn't know who is actual father was.

A little extra info

  Reveal hidden contents

Keep in mind that Mercurius is a 'natural-born' deity, an individual who rose to godhood through his own inherent power.  Part of his goal in Dies Irae (a necessary step) was to force Marie to invert from a 'gudou' deity to a 'hadou' deity through contact with Reinhardt after bonding with Ren.  When Marie's nature as a deity is turned inward (gudou), she represents eternity.  However, when it is turned outward, she becomes the cycle of reincarnation and an incarnation of motherly compassion.  Mercurius saw this potential in her early on, and it was that potential that caused him to fall for her. 

 

Just one more

  Reveal hidden contents

On some of the Japanese forums I sometimes lurk in, one of the popular theories is that Ren, if he had chosen, could have remained himself in the world Marie created, but because he didn't have the romantic love for her (his love being directed to Rea) he chose to discard his power as a deity.  This is actually fairly typical of Ren, since his love is for 'normal, peaceful days' rather than the abnormal.   I described the accepted theory above, but Light and Masada have never actually come out and said it outright.  Also, you should keep in mind that the paths are in a literal chronological order of Kasumi>Kei>Marie>Rea... all the events in the game happened, but only Mercurius remembers (and even his memories are fragmented).   To be clear, the reason Rea's path occurs is because Marie's world of multiple deities didn't eliminate Mercurius, and when it collapsed Mercurius reset things before disaster could take everything (I'm deliberately not spoiling the exact cause of the collapse).  KKK is based off of an alternate history where he failed to reset things before disaster occurred (as a basic rule, two full hadou deities cannot exist in the same universe at once without eventually coming into conflict and one being destroyed/consumed by the other). 

Edit: To append one more bit to the first part of this box, the reason the first theory I gave is the accepted one is because it comes from what Ren said at the last during Rea's alternate ending.

 

Thank you for your information. That helps me very much.z

The truth is when reading Dies Irae, I took break between routes and started exploring some of Masada/Light VNs. After reading the Trial of KKK, Vendetta, Trinity, Soushuu senshinkan Hachimyoujin..They all gave the same impression of Masada/Light style: starting with some information about the theme of that VNs (for example Dies Irae with recurrence, Vendetta with the meaning of victory) or forshadowing (Trinity, SSH). And the way they present the information is so hard to follow. I kind of getting lost in the middle way and have to re-read some parts (not sentence) two or three times to fully understand it. That's why I don't have confidence in my understanding of Dies Irae despite finishing it. The characters also have many layers of development that require a good amount of effort to truly appreciate it.

Another two question related to Dies Irae. 
 

Spoiler

About Lisa's past. After failing killing so much, she decided to use her own womb.
My question is Did she lay bed with more or only two men who are the father of Isaak and Johann ?
Another one is the time she laid with Reinhard is when Mercurius faked his death and she used Palida Mors on his corps. That's why he did not remember the father of Isaak. But another person told me that Reinhard did not fake his death and he simply just forgot about it. Which one is right ? Were Himmler the father of Johann or never mentioned ?


 

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3 minutes ago, Ashley Horizon said:

Can you explain so that I can edit the topic ,please ? I'm fairly new here despite lurking for a long time and don't know much about this.

Put your entire post in a spoiler box save for the intro, and change the title to 'SPOILERS'.  Your questions in and of themselves were spoilers.

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17 minutes ago, Ashley Horizon said:

 

  Hide contents

About Lisa's past. After failing killing so much, she decided to use her own womb.
My question is Did she lay bed with more or only two men who are the father of Isaak and Johann ?
Another one is the time she laid with Reinhard is when Mercurius faked his death and she used Palida Mors on his corps. That's why he did not remember the father of Isaak. But another person told me that Reinhard did not fake his death and he simply just forgot about it. Which one is right ? Were Himmler the father of Johann or never mentioned ?

 

Spoiler

Reinhardt is the father of Isaak and Johann. 

The reason he doesn't remember is because Reinhardt sees all people and things equally and loves them equally... and wants to destroy all he loves.  To him, parental bonds are irrelevant unless someone reminds him (as in Rea's path) and even then it doesn't influence him to any significant degree.  His difference in reactions to certain people is a matter of taste, rather than a measure of difference in degree (he prefers the strong over the weak, warriors over whiners, etc, but he loves them all equally... lol).

As a side note, the reason the priest is so psycho is because he is using Reinhardt's body, which is driven to destroy those the soul residing inside loves due to residual influence.  That is why he comes up with that screwy plan to use incomplete swastikas to 'save' a few in exchange for thousands of deaths, lol.  Even if he has good intentions, they get warped by the impulses his body imposes on his spirit. 

One more thing

Spoiler

Reinhardt's death was and wasn't faked.  He basically entered the 'castle' with Makina, Eleanore, and Schieber before the assassination could occur.  This can be considered the death of Reinhardt Heydrich the man and the birth of Mephistopheles, because his castle is aspected of eternal death and life (meaning existences bound to it can be considered to be either).  Isaak was conceived several years before Berlin... and before the assassination attempt...  Himmler might have been told he was the father, but that wasn't the actual case.

 

Edited by Clephas

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25 minutes ago, Ashley Horizon said:

Can you explain so that I can edit the topic ,please ? I'm fairly new here despite lurking for a long time and don't know much about this.

Sure. Spoiler free usually means there are NO spoilers. Just remove the 'free' from your topic name so people will that that there are spoilers here.

Edited by fun2novel

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