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Am I the only one who Rea was ruining her own route? I understand that romance was not the focus of the story, but still... Even Shirou said that she and MC has lack of chemistry. 

No matter how much I disliked Kasumi I still have to admit it that even she was better in this aspect...

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35 minutes ago, Sparteh said:

Am I the only one who Rea was ruining her own route? I understand that romance was not the focus of the story, but still... Even Shirou said that she and MC has lack of chemistry. 

No matter how much I disliked Kasumi I still have to admit it that even she was better in this aspect...

Rea's route were the one I liked the most on the romance side of things.

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So I'm reading Dies Irae for a while now (chapter 8 I think), and it was an... okay read so far. Neither particular lows that would get me raging nor particular highs that would have impressed me. Art is pretty good especially considering its age, though the sound is kinda hit and miss. Compared to Tokyo Babel it had a way better start, but unlike Tokyo Babel which somehow grew on me over time, there are more and more things that are starting to bug me.

First and foremost, the VN makes way too many POV changes to other characters. So much I think i'm spending more time in NVL format than in ADV. And there are a few consequences because of that. First, the pacing comes down to a crawl because the story hardly progresses since the VN tries to follow every character. Second, NVL is okay for narration but not so much for dialogs since its harder to follow them that way. Third, the VN spoils too much info you're not supposed to know since the protagonist doesn't know it. That also means if the protagonist finally gets that info it's both boring and redundant since you already got the information. That's not to say that some extra info couldn't be used to create some tension like in KnS or G-Senjou, but the VN is way beyond that.

The main problem that arises of all those points is that character development and interaction of the protagonist is significantly lacking. So far he wasn't particularly useful anyway and just a mere tool for the order. That's okay for a start, but he doesn't seem to grow at all. He just reacts on situations to play a bit karate kit, but there's zero initiative on his own to investigate or do something, anything. But the VN also doesn't really seem to give him a fair chance to develop. It's already pretty weird that the protagonist and his friends barely seems to care if people around them die. One or two sentences to mention the fact and then back to joking. It's very irritating since it makes it hard to take the events serious that way. Though Tokyo Babel had similar problem in that regard. And it goes without saying that romances are pretty much forgetable that way either.

I hope the plot justifies the VN pretty much sacrificing his own protagonist. I think Dies was better at the start than Tokyo Babel, but currently I'm starting to favor Tokyo Babel since for all its flaws it had, the protagonist was one of the best ones I know with a good chemistry with the heroines. The other characters in Dies have to compensate this, but so far I didn't see a character that really managed to impress me. There wasn't really bad ones either so it's not that bad and not all characters did show up yet, so there's certainly still potential to turn the tides. The VN has certainly strong similarities with Fate and Hellsing, both all time favorites of mine, but the VN still has to show that it can stand its ground to those two.

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Question: I've just finished the common route (the route labelled as "new game"). The guide tells me to go for Kasumi's route next, but after reading for a bit I've realised that its beginning is identical to the common route. Would there be much more obvious changes later on in her route? 

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44 minutes ago, Limerence_ said:

Question: I've just finished the common route (the route labelled as "new game"). The guide tells me to go for Kasumi's route next, but after reading for a bit I've realised that its beginning is identical to the common route. Would there be much more obvious changes later on in her route? 

I think starting a heroine route only means that you start the VN from the beginning with preset choices that lead you to the preselected heroine route. You can also start a new game and make all the choices yourself and end in every heroine route. If you really finished the 'common route' labeled "new game" you've probably already finished the game with one heroine route lol. I think my choices lead me to Kei's route.

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3 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

I think starting a heroine route only means that you start the VN from the beginning with preset choices that lead you to the preselected heroine route. You can also start a new game and make all the choices yourself and end in every heroine route. If you really finished the 'common route' labeled "new game" you've probably already finished the game with one heroine route lol. I think my choices lead me to Kei's route.

Ahh I see. Thanks. I guess that means I've finished Kasumi's route. 

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55 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

I think starting a heroine route only means that you start the VN from the beginning with preset choices that lead you to the preselected heroine route. You can also start a new game and make all the choices yourself and end in every heroine route. If you really finished the 'common route' labeled "new game" you've probably already finished the game with one heroine route lol. I think my choices lead me to Kei's route.

I wouldn't recommend reading Kei's route first. The order is Kasumi > Kei > Marie > Rea (don't ask why light decided to unlock it).

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1 hour ago, Conjueror said:

I wouldn't recommend reading Kei's route first. The order is Kasumi > Kei > Marie > Rea (don't ask why light decided to unlock it).

I'm actually really thinking about reverting back to Kasumi's route. Not because I'd care about route orders (which I don't), but the more I read about Kei the more I'm starting to dislike her. She's just a ruthless mass murderer, and I don't like that type. I wouldn't say I'm a big Kasumi fan, but at least I don't hate her. I'll probably just skip Kei's route altogether, she has no chemistry with Ren anyway.

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11 hours ago, ChaosRaven said:

I'm actually really thinking about reverting back to Kasumi's route. Not because I'd care about route orders (which I don't), but the more I read about Kei the more I'm starting to dislike her. She's just a ruthless mass murderer, and I don't like that type. I wouldn't say I'm a big Kasumi fan, but at least I don't hate her. I'll probably just skip Kei's route altogether, she has no chemistry with Ren anyway.

I also recommend reverting back and finishing routes in this order Kasumi>Kei>Marie>Rea

It is very important order if you want maximum experience from the game. Or should I say, in order not to ruin that experience. Also, DON'T SKIP ROUTES. Dies Irae is not something like Fate/Stay Night or other similar VNs. You need specific info from other routes or some parts will not make sense. 

As for heroines, personally I was not a fan of Kasumi or her route, but I am glad I finished it in the way it was recommended. To be perfectly honest, out of 4 main heroines, I liked Marie the most even though she wasn't written that well. Also,  for me Rea as heroine dragged down her route, but route itself was EPIC. 

Edited by Sparteh

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There's one major thing I didn't understand about the opening of the swastikas yet...

Spoiler

According to what Kei said, the swastikas are opened at a certain location by causing lots of bloodshed. However, apparently they can't just sacrifice a lot of innocents civilians, it has to happen in the process of some serious battle for whatever reasons. But getting involved in a simple gun fight with the police, yakuza or the military doesn't seem to suffice otherwise they wouldn't need to involve Ren into the fights.

However, if that's true and they really need Ren for it, that would mean they can't kill him and most likely 'let him win' the battles more or less intentionally. They could have killed him certainly before but didn't do it, because they wouldn't be able to open more swastikas without him. But if they need him to open the swastikas, then why is Ren joining the fights in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to stay away as far away as possible from the swastika locations and let them kill themselves if they want to open one? If he kills an opponent it'll be opened anyway because it's pretty much a power-sacrifice. However, what's then the point of the battles when the order can't let Ren loose the fights and Ren itself is just playing into their hands by fighting them?

 

Edited by ChaosRaven

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Spoiler

I've only read Kasumi and Kei's routes so far, but from what I understand, the LDO can open swastikas by simply slaughtering hundreds of innocents or executing one of themselves. Doing so hurts their quality due to the lack of real combat, but that has no consequences as long as it doesn't happen too often. So if Ren doesn't show up, they'll start a massacre.

Sure, things could get problematic if he forced them to open all the swastikas this way, but he's determined to save as many innocents as possible, so he has no choice but to confront them.

 

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Spoiler

Hmm, why should it work a few times without Ren being present and then not anymore? The order don't seem to care about civilian lives, so it's hard to believe that they only involve him to keep the body count lower. They could have certainly killed him at the start when he wasn't prepared and later on they could've still killed him by attacking him together. So if they don't choose such an obvious way to get rid of him, they most likely have a reason for it.

I think the only thing that would make some sense is that Ren has to be present in the battles or they need to sacrifice one of their own to open a swastica. So, the best outcome for them would be that neither Ren nor any of their own dies and a swastica gets opened just by civilian sacrifices. So the best thing Ren could do would be to kill someone of the order as fast as possible to keep the collateral damage low, even if it would mean that a swastica is opened. But that would still make the battles kind of boring since the order can't afford to get really serious and kill him.

Either way, it sounds awfully constructed. I hope there's a more reasonable explanation how the whole procedure works. Does the VN have bad ends? It would be highly interesting to know what happens if Ren actually dies. Would Reinhard & Co. still be able to get free or would they be stuck in nirvana or whatever place they are?

 

Edited by ChaosRaven

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Spoiler

You seem to have misunderstood me. IIUC, killing people without a proper battle hurts the quality of the resulting swastika. The LDO can't get away with more than a few of those, so they need to fight Ren at as many swastikas as possible. Slaughtering civilians mainly serves to provoke Ren into confronting them.

 

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Spoiler

I think I got what you meant and maye you're right. It's just that it doesn't really make sense to me. It would have been easier to understand for me if it would be just about blood sacrifice since it's a tried and true concept (in fiction). But Ren just being present and fighting a dude from the order as a condition to open a swastika? Why?!?

But maybe I shouldn't think to deep about it. The VN is most likely more about fancy battles than a deep plot - it's chuuni after all.

Still, the rule somehow takes the satisfaction of Ren's battle victories away since that's pretty much exactly what the order wants. Another swastika was opened and Ren survives so he can contribute to the next swasika opening. So technically he looses every fight even if he wins. And Ren most likely doesn't have the smarts to stop dancing to their tune and thwart their plans with some unexpected action. Like just vanishing so they can't open any swastikas anymore, or doing exactly the opposite and make a deal with them to help open the swastikas in exchange for sparing the lives of innocents? Probably depends on what exactly will happen when all swastikas are opened.

 

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Finished Kasumi's route and it was decent, if a little too long. Will say the epilogue kind of reminded me of the endings you'd get in Blazblue that weren't the true endings...and yes I realize that sounds like I'm stating the obvious there, but the similarity isn't necessarily that. There's just something about the dialogue and imagery used that kind of remind me of it, heck when I first saw the game's opening I couldn't help but be reminded of this:

 

One last comment I have regarding the ending though is this:

Spoiler

Why do I get the feeling whenever Ren wakes up his conversation with Kasumi will probably go something like this?:

 

 

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I am very sorry to necro this thread but I was directed here from another thread that explicitly said it was ok to do so.

Many people in this Dies Irae thread talked about the common route or about how certain parts of the translation were not perfect, but there were hardly any opinions of people who have read through the whole story, so I wanted to add a few things.

First I want to agree with a few things that are often seen elsewhere. The story starts a bit slowly and takes a while to get into. Also the MC is not very likable at all and you will definitely not remember the VN because of him. But as soon as you start meeting the villains of the story it becomes a really good read. I have not read that many VNs yet but the villains in Dies Irae are certainly the best I have encountered so far - really evil and extremely scary because of their powers (although the Betas of Muv-Luv Alternative were just as scary but they cannot be compared to this game at all).

Unlike many other readers I did not think the VN continued getting better and better until the end. I enjoyed the Kei route, then enjoyed the Kasumi route, then funniliy enough I found the Marie route good, too, but I started to think that the battles were somehow always the same and this continued even more so in the Rea route. Mind you, it was always exciting enough to keep me reading, but it kinda started feeling like a drag. Then when all was over and only the 2 after stories left (Amentes amentes and Omnia vincit Amor) I would have rated it 5/10

BUT THEN I read the 2 After Stories and although they are pretty short they made me understand why the story went as it did and why I got that feeling that it was always the same. And I wondered if all readers understood the meaning and importance of the after stories. They were enough to make my rating go up to 7/10 and even with a tendency towards 8.

By the way I mentioned that I played through Kei's route before Kasumi's and it did not matter at all to me, so imo it does not matter in which order you read these 2 routes as long as you read them before Marie's and Rea's

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