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activi t

What is the appeal of visual novels?

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For me, it's simple. 

VNs are easier to read and more attractive. Not just superficially. Like everyone has said, Vns are a different medium altogether, so by making comparisons to other forms of media, you shot yourself in the cock. 

The mistake majority make, is not even understanding the execution or scope of VNs. How? 

When judging a VN, most categorize by Art ( Sprite CG), Music (BGM) and writing (prose). It's sad when people judge/appraise an item by 50% of it's quality. Vns are not based on those few criteria i mentioned, but alot more. Consider the Visual Effects used (if any), consider the SFX, the GUI, the directing (post-programming). Once you base your judgement on all of these, your review becomes more complete. Excessive? Unnecessary? If you feel appraising with all these is too much and not worth it, then don't appraise at all. Half-baked appraisals hurt other people's drive (creators).

The moment you said you dropped the Vns, you moved the gun to your backside and shot yourself there as well. I in particular ( and my general view) feel that someone who is unable to completely consume a product, has no right to appraise it. The saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover" didn't pop up because someone was trying to sound cool. In the same sense, your current representation to me, based on what you said, is "I dropped it because i didn't like it, so it is shit", as opposed to the more appropriate mentality "I dropped it because i didn't like it, so it's not my thing". in the latter quote, the consumer understands and respects the fact that his personal tastes do not judge the product as a whole, as there are hundreds of other opinions to the contrary.

TL;DR: I am not pointing out pros and cons of VNs. I am showing you how to "Open-mindedly" assess the pros and cons of VNs. 

I think you should pick up some of the recommendations in this thread and keep the points i mentioned above in mind. You must always remember, that your opinion is one out of many and unless the majority share your opinion, it's only singular. Like my shitty opinion i just explained. 

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@dfbreezy Everything you just said about judging/appraising all aspects of VNs is true. But the fact is, that the things that get's you attracted to a VN is either the art, the music, the plot or the writting (this two latter aspects go separetly since a good plot or story can be messed up when the writer is not skilled enough to set up the plot correctly).

Then, after you got involved with those aspects, you start to value the other aspects you said, such as programming, SFX, and even how many elements from the options menu you're able to adjust to your likings, such as transparency of the text boxjust to mention one.

 

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It's simple, to read stories that I couldn't normally read in other mediums (say, books or comics) because they're either 1) way, waaaay out there (MYTH, Saya no Uta or Euphoria, for example) or 2) because they use storytelling devices that are not available in other media (Ever 17, 999 and Remember 11 are the first examples that come to mind.)

Basically I read VNs for mindfucks and weird shit, and VNs are pretty good at it.

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I love reading and I love romance. I don't usually read galges (the only exception I made was for G Senjou no Maou, which was excellent) but I do love otome. 

Sure the writing could be better, but I don't care as long as it's decent and the premise was interesting. I don't self-insert, I view myself as someone who guides the heroine or protagonist to a happy ending. That's the appeal of vns for me- the fact that my choices sffect what happens to the characters.

Something I love but isn't romance focused is The House in Fata Morgana. Another excellent work. It's probably the only one I've rated 10 so far. The writing is incredible, the visuals are nice to look at, and the music is one of the best I've heard. Also highly recommended.

Mostly, vns to me aren't much of games. It's an entirely different medium. If I wanted to experience a story while playing, I'd be playing Mass Effect or Dragon Age. With VNs, I just experience the story with my choices affecting what happens next. Like an interactive novel that's presented like a movie.

 

 

 

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So much for wanting a discussion. This guy is in the wind. I was dubious from the start despite the reasonable sounding bookends of his argument. No sense trying to convince someone who can't be bothered to participate in the "discussion" they started.

Wouldn't be surprised if this was a one off fake account somebody created.

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For me, the biggest reason is a combination of two.  I enjoy reading(which is why I read books as well), but the plot is always too linear to me.  I like them because it's a story that I can get into and also influence by the choices that I make at the prompts.  Often times when describing them to people I liken them to the old "Choose Your Own Adventure" books, which I used to read a lot during my childhood, because it's a similar concept.  Combine that with the stories that are being told and you have something that I find rather enjoyable.  That's why I'm not exactly a fan of kinetic VNs.  That's why visuals are lower on my list of priorities than with anime.

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Hello again. I'd like to apologize for (as has already been called out) disappearing from my very own thread without responding to any of you. This wasn't my intention, but I got really caught up with a couple of RL issues. The thread would probably have been more fruitful if I had posted it at a different time (like now), but that can't be helped. I can't respond to every single response individually, but I can assure you that I've read them all and taken them into consideration. So I'll be responding to a couple of recurring points in this thread.

First of all, it does seem like I delved into this medium with the wrong mindset. There is indeed nothing wrong with visual novels being an entertainment medium first and foremost. I guess they could be compared to something like young adult literature or a popcorn movie? It's perfectly fine to enjoy that, and I might have been looking at this from the wrong angle. I'll try out Saya no Uta and these NVL recommendations, so thanks for those.

The integration of audiovisual aspects was something where people disagreed with me. After thinking over it for a while, the audial isn't necessarily as bad as I initially believed. Certain emotions being connected with a specific soundtrack can do wonders in setting the mood, and this seems to be exploited well enough. I'm still not convinced with the visuals, though. Art can be used to express concepts which can't be accurately described by writing, but I don't think it accomplishes this goal in the VNs I tried. The visual aspects have not been connected to the overall story on a meaningful way, nor expanded it's presentation beyond what words could describe. Visuals have simply been used as lackluster substitutes for more imaginative prose, which leads me to the next point where people wanted more clarification:

The writing is lazy. These visual novels constantly broke the "show, don't tell" rule, which is perhaps the most basic of all writing advice. It's not enough to tell the reader what is going on, but you should also make the reader feel and get immersed into it to give them reason to care about any of it at all. Elementary example:

Bishoujo-chan looked tired.

vs.

Bishoujo-chan collapsed on the bed and I could see dark circles under her eyes.

When preset sprites or backgrounds aren't enough to describe the situation, sentences like the first one need more unpacking to make the reader experience the world themselves, rather than the writer acting as an interpreter for it.This also manifests for instance in the overuse of adverbs. There isn't anything inherently wrong with adverbs but they were often used in the wrong way, to avoid writing things more interestingly and picking the reader's brain. Simply put, the writing wasn't engaging enough. As writing is the meat of visual novels, it makes the overall experience quite dull.

Another aspect which was brought up was the integration of choices in shaping the outcome of the story. I'm a bit conflicted with this issue, as I never saw it as a big selling point of visual novels. It seems that the choices are mostly restricted to just a couple of important ones, which determine which route you'll end up in and another one for how the route will end. But this is a bit tricky as I'm not sure how much this could be improved without making it overly complicated and impossible to work with. Overall I just don't think player choices were such a big aspect of any of the visual novels I tried nor anything that would draw me in, though I do admit that the use of a non-linear narrative worked quite well particularly in Fate/Stay Night.

Apologies for butchering the conversation, but I'll be able to respond accurately from now on.

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9 hours ago, Mistearea said:

For me, the biggest reason is a combination of two.  I enjoy reading(which is why I read books as well), but the plot is always too linear to me.  I like them because it's a story that I can get into and also influence by the choices that I make at the prompts.  Often times when describing them to people I liken them to the old "Choose Your Own Adventure" books, which I used to read a lot during my childhood, because it's a similar concept.  Combine that with the stories that are being told and you have something that I find rather enjoyable.  That's why I'm not exactly a fan of kinetic VNs.  That's why visuals are lower on my list of priorities than with anime.

Well... I quite understand the motivation to clear the routes by yourself and see what happens when you make a series of choices. That way the novels tend to last more time. I have read some of them that way. But now I want to read as much novels as possible, and thus I need to cut time spent on each, so I just get a walkthrough, like in our fantastic Fuwa forums.

For example, when I bought "The way we all go" (fantastic OELVN by Ebihime), I started clearing the endings by making choices myself. But with such a big choice tree, I needed to resort to a guide in order to clear all 21 endings. Doing so myself would have been rewarding, but exceptionally time-consuming, and some endings I might never achieve.

The multiple ending thing is a very nice feature indeed. It's pure replayability.

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I'm gonna on a different tangent and say H-SCENES. Yes there is a thing called H-Anime, yes there are things called doujins, yes there are just random lewd pics you can find.

However, the great thing about H-scenes especially in non-nukige is if you specifically want H-content with a character/waifu you've grown attached to through story/development congratulations! You usually get at least 1-2 H scenes for the average non-nukige. H-scenes in VNs are lot more varied, in H anime you're limited by the 20 minute episode limit and sex within the eps is maybe 3 minutes on average, 5 minutes tops. Some H-scenes like in MajiKoi are ridiculously long so if you're proud of your endurance you dont have to worry about being disappointed by 20 page doujins (where sex is sometimes like 5-7 pages long) or 20 minute animes with gaps between sex.

Also while more common in nukige you have cool things like fap counters by line. If you like to control your releases this is a great way to pace yourself instead of the more unpredictable nature of other porn stuff.

And H-scenes usually have MUCH better CG art than most 2D hentai stuff at best.

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14 hours ago, activi t said:

Art can be used to express concepts which can't be accurately described by writing, but I don't think it accomplishes this goal in the VNs I tried. The visual aspects have not been connected to the overall story on a meaningful way, nor expanded it's presentation beyond what words could describe. Visuals have simply been used as lackluster substitutes for more imaginative prose, which leads me to the next point where people wanted more clarification:

again, taking FSN as the example, i think you will find out that this particular one has a lot of combination of purple prose that is further enhanced by visual effects if you read it through the end. Example you showed is for slice of life scenes, which is kinda nitpicking but an acceptable point. During scenes in VN that does require explicit, enhanced atmosphere such as action scenes and eerie/scary scenes, youll find out that visual enhancement does improve the experience somtimes quite immensely.

14 hours ago, activi t said:

The writing is lazy. These visual novels constantly broke the "show, don't tell" rule, which is perhaps the most basic of all writing advice. It's not enough to tell the reader what is going on, but you should also make the reader feel and get immersed into it to give them reason to care about any of it at all. Elementary example:

Bishoujo-chan looked tired.

vs.

Bishoujo-chan collapsed on the bed and I could see dark circles under her eyes.

i mean

this kind of scenes really doesn shown lazily in both Grisaia or FSN. If anything, both of those oversaturated and transformed what wouldve been a boring narration of slice of life narration into weird quirky comedic in Grisaia and high contrast theme in FSN

dunno about Kanon so I dont know how did you come up with this example based on those 3 you read. Maybe give an example directly quoited from the VN?

14 hours ago, activi t said:

Another aspect which was brought up was the integration of choices in shaping the outcome of the story. I'm a bit conflicted with this issue, as I never saw it as a big selling point of visual novels. It seems that the choices are mostly restricted to just a couple of important ones, which determine which route you'll end up in and another one for how the route will end. But this is a bit tricky as I'm not sure how much this could be improved without making it overly complicated and impossible to work with. Overall I just don't think player choices were such a big aspect of any of the visual novels I tried nor anything that would draw me in, though I do admit that the use of a non-linear narrative worked quite well particularly in Fate/Stay Night.

The cool thing about VN is like this: in route A, you pick options A to get Heroine A. Then you follo Heroine A story. But then when you pick option B to go to heroince B, you find out things that otherwise wouldnt have happened if you go A route. Choices arent just about getting to the route you want, its also about telling the causal effect of your choices and what would and would not happen due to it. Like a small scale butterfly effect. Of course, some VN do it much worse than the other. I remember Clannad do it particularly well.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, activi t said:

The writing is lazy. These visual novels constantly broke the "show, don't tell" rule, which is perhaps the most basic of all writing advice. It's not enough to tell the reader what is going on, but you should also make the reader feel and get immersed into it to give them reason to care about any of it at all. 

When preset sprites or backgrounds aren't enough to describe the situation, sentences like the first one need more unpacking to make the reader experience the world themselves, rather than the writer acting as an interpreter for it.This also manifests for instance in the overuse of adverbs. There isn't anything inherently wrong with adverbs but they were often used in the wrong way, to avoid writing things more interestingly and picking the reader's brain. Simply put, the writing wasn't engaging enough. As writing is the meat of visual novels, it makes the overall experience quite dull.

It's a superficial delving into the problems, but you're not wrong (there are exceptions.) People often don't read English translated VNs for the quality of writing though, and if they do they may need to read more widely. VNs are one of my guilty pleasures, similar to some self-published novels I devour I know what I'm reading often isn't technically good, but VNs tends to push buttons normal books don't.

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It seems to me to be a mistake to approach a new storytelling medium by asking yourself what you want from it, rather than what it has to deliver and how it delivers it.  Visual Novels are not Novels, Short stories, poetry, film, TV or Opera and none of these things offer the same thing as each other and neither have they claim to.  The way that Visual Novels are designed, written and created is not the same and not trying to be the same as Shakespeare, or Citizen Kane or Hemingway.  It’s a different time, culture, form, experience –  as has been mentioned already, choosing 3 VNs from now and deciding if you like the form based on that is as relevant as picking, say, 3 hollywood blockbusters and declaring film a terrible form because it doesn’t do provocative and thoughtful.  It does, you’re just not appreciating either the intent or the constraints or the purpose of the particular cinema you just watched.  Now, I happen to love Hollywood cinema, especially when it’s Star Wars or marvel superheroes … but it’s not literary in the Orson Welles sense.  I’m ok with that because I like the things that are done well and I appreciate to some extent how they are done well.

But the thing I keep reading is criticisms of how the text is “not-literary” and I guess this is frequently put alongside, say good prose of literary novelists or whatever and seen wanting.  Now, as a big fan of Opera (as well as well written Victorian doorstep novels) I think I have a little  sense in how different types of language can be used in different contexts and different forms.  I think people too often go into VNs expecting them to be “Novelistic” (except for the people who expect choose-your-own-adventure books) and are maybe disappointed, instead of considering that VNs are a marriage of words, image and music as coincidentally is Opera.  Now the two forms don’t share much in common culturally or in content or style but I want to point out that in Opera language is, whilst not subservient, it’s different and, on the surface, not as directly important as the music.  You can happily put on an Opera CD and enjoy arias or incidental music etc but few people read Opera librettos without the music, for fun.  Why?  Because the language is tooled in such a way that it works in that musical context and only that context.  Sometimes the symbolism can be heavy, such as in Wagner or Strauss, but even then the symbolism is expressed more directly through musical themes than by what the characters are saying, and in other great operas I find the dialogue to be quite trite at times even when a librettist is highly regarded.  Except for where the composer is the librettist, the librettist rarely gets billed as anyone other than “that guy the composer collaborated with”.  Mozart is well remembered as a name, his great librettist Da Ponte is not.

My drawn out point is – neither the form or the culture surrounding VNs expects or demands dense and elaborate prose in order to tell the types of stories currently being told through the medium.  That doesn’t mean it is not good writing, it means that the writing is being used to push the story content in a clear, direct and accessible way.  It’s like schools of thought on how quick edits should be in movies – an artistic movie director may favour long takes, more establishing mood shots etc.whereas a Hollywood blockbuster will favour quick edits, more crosscutting and pithier dialogue.  Neither is wrong or bad per se(except, y’know, Quantum of Solace), it’s just what is appropriate and correct for the story being told and the audience is designed for.  One can and ought to debate  greatness within the boundaries of what something is trying to achieve, but to call it out for not being something else entirely seems very wrong to me.  I haven’t read many VNs yet, I’m still a noob, but I did read Planetarian and felt it a masterpiece – and what struck me about it was precisely the way that the simple prose and the simple images actually formed together to create a very large sense of the world and a strong connection to two characters.  It was non-fussy and that’s partly where it draws its power as a story from.  I think the VN form is powerful – as one previous poster hinted – because it takes a lot longer for connections to be formed with characters through smaller incidents it enables for smaller plot points to be imbued with heightened drama and meaning.  I don’t think it’s the case that these stories can’t be told any other way, but I imagine that the experience of watching the Planetarian anime is markedly different from reading the VN.  Hopefully, still good but the different mediums will bring out different qualities in the story, I’m sure.

Edited by juss100

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Okay, so the consensus here seems to be that the combination of art, music, writing, and interactivity and the overall experience you get from that is what resonates with VN readers and distracts from the simplicity in some if the elements when examined alone. I'm not entirely convinced narrative in visual novels shouldn't be compared to narrative in other media as I feel like much of the basics in "regular" novel writing (and with the most rudimentary parts, any storytelling, really) is indistinguishable from that in visual novels. Or maybe that sterile writing does actually work in this medium, as juss100 claimed? It's a bit hard to tell as I haven't read any with exceptionally good prose yet. However, seems like I just couldn't grasp that overall feeling visual novels are supposed to convey, so maybe it simply isn't a medium for me.

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Just think of a fast food menu or some other greasy food.

Is it food? Yes. Is it nourishing? It is. Does it kill you? No, as long as you don't do it every day.

But, every once in a while, you want one of these. People are like that.

People generally aren't "gourmets", not in the things they eat, not in the entertainment they consume.

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Also, be aware that "writing quality" is highly affected by the quality of the translation.  Kanon and Fate/Stay Night were both fan translated.  I haven't played either, so I can't comment on the translation quality; but I wouldn't be surprised if they were not very good.  (Grisaia was professionally done, but I haven't played it yet either.)  Poor localization can turn a great game into a terrible one.

I'd recommend Gakhthun, Steins;Gate, and Demonbane.  They all have a very high reputation and the localization is very good.

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On 12/3/2017 at 6:33 PM, Dergonu said:

I personally enjoy the combination of visuals and music in addition to the text in VNs, which makes them more enjoyable than normal books for me, where all I have is the text alone. It makes it easier to visualize the story, and the music + sound effects usually help setting the mood/ atmoshpere in the scenes without any "effort" from me as I read, and in turn makes me feel more immersed in the story.

You comment a lot on the writing and such in the VNs being terrible, and personally just straight up disagree with this. I can't really say much about that particular point to be honest, as I don't really understand specifically what you thought was so terrible compared to "normal books". If anything I find the writing in most VNs I have read quite enjoyable. (And as an avid book reader, I see little difference in quality when comparing "normal books" and VNs in my mind.)

The choices in VNs was another one of the things that drew me to the genre. A book where I as the reader get to make choices that impacts the ending of the story is an incredibly cool feature. This is certainly one of the most appealing things about VNs to me, even in pure love stories where the only real choices is choosing a heroine. Just the fact that I can somewhat choose where the story will be going is tons of fun.

The combination of "mature content" and serious stories utilized in eroge was another reason I got interested in VNs. Games that can actually utilize 18+ scenes in the story well are quite enjoyable to me, as creepy as that might sound. I mostly read untranslated VNs nowadays, but one translated example would be Euphoria.

Lastly, I guess just having been a fan of manga, anime and light novels since I was a kid has made me enjoy the artstyle and storytelling in these mediums, which in turn makes me enjoy VNs quite a lot, as VNs utilize a lot of the same stuff you find in other otaku mediums.

How did u learn Japanese.

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On 12/3/2017 at 5:58 PM, activi t said:

Hey,

I want to start of by paraphrasing that my intention is not to mock your hobby or to stir the pot in a niche discussion board, I've come here simply to understand more about visual novels as a medium and why people enjoy them.

So I'm a longtime albeit casual anime fan and after watching the White Allbum 2 anime adaptation, decided to check out what these so-called visual novels were. My prejudices of VNs being little more than otaku fap material were rebutted by this anime, and after some googling and Wikipedia-research, I though that VNs sounded quite cool and I might actually enjoy them. I decided to give visual novels a shot. I actually didn't begin my journey with Katawa Shoujo, I thought trying an "original" Japanese visual novel would be more appropriate as it might give a better representation of the medium. I started off with Kanon and soon after that read Fate/stay night and Grisaia no Kajitsu, and was thoroughly disappointed.

My main gripe was the writing. It was pretty obvious from the get-go that these stories were written by amateurs, and I found the writing no better than in some of those trashy harem light novels I tried before. The pacing was awful and the plot dragged out way too much. For instance, you don't need rows upon rows of mind-numbing dialogue to flesh out the personality of your characters or have the reader develop a connection with them, that is simply bad writing. Not to mention that the dialogue in these situations often felt forced and unnatural. The VNs I read lacked any sort of literary merit or narrative quality, from start to finish there was no subtext to anything of what I read. Everything was presented to the reader carefully arranged on a platter with little room left for individual interpretation. I felt like your average Hollywood flick or live-action TV series has more depth to it than the stories and their presentation in visual novels. When written text is the center of the medium, lacking any stand-alone narrative quality is a huge problem.

I felt like the visuals and music simply encouraged this lackluster writing, but didn't add enough substance compensate of it. When an emotional scene hits, you don't need to use any fancy prose when you can rely on a recycled song and change the facial expression of your sprites, right? These audiovisual characteristics weren't developed well enough in my opinion. It's just some static background images on top of which you throw a sprite with a couple of different poses and facial expressions. Done. It felt like the visual, the audial, and the written parts were developed completely separately from each other with little connection to the overarching story which would incorporate all three, and at the end just mashed together with all departments expecting the other one to do all the hard work to capture the essence of the moment.

I realize I've only read very few visual novels, but considering that these seem to be some of the most highly-acclaimed ones out there (at least among the translated ones) and that all three of them exhibited the same flaws, I believe it would be safe to assume these flaws were rampant in the medium as a whole.

Again, I don't want to offend anyone with this, these are simply my personal experiences and observations with visual novels and why I didn't find them enjoyable. I ventured to visual novels with a positive attitude, I believed I would find enjoyment in them. I might have looked at things the wrong way or my analysis may simply be completely off the track, which is why I decided to post this here to hear the opinions of more experienced VN enthusiasts, and I'm ready to give visual novels another chance. But from what I've seen so far, I don't know why anyone would find this medium even remotely interesting. If you enjoy reading, why not read books which handle the writing much better and more imaginatively? If you like the tropes or audiovisual characteristics, why not watch anime or read manga which handle those aspects way better?

I hope we can have a constructive discussion on the ideas presented here and the nature of visual novels as a medium. Cheers!

 

Try Kara no Shojo or G-String no Maou, then tell me if ur disappointed.

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Another thing that occurred to me to mention –

When we think of novels or movies we think of them as something that’s been around forever and we might pick up a novel from the 21st century and think “oh that’s a novel and I apply x standards of literariness to it”.  Well, it’s worth noting that what those standards are have been debated for several hundred years at this point and whilst we’re still not close to getting an answer, we have a vague cultural sense of what they should be and we have umpteen different “movements” we can point to in the development of the novel from epic, to romantic, modernist, stream of consciousness, post-modern etc.

Visual Novels, on the other hand, is the youngest form there is and there hasn’t even been the time or critical attention for different movements to develop – well, I suspect we are just at the beginning of a wave 2 of sorts, I don’t know.  Moe obviously is going to dominate “wave 1” although it’s interesting because that clearly developed out of dating sims and hentai games.  I’m personally trying to look at early examples of visual novels to get a better sense of context for this and already I can see a developing of the form from Eve: Burst Error to Yu:No and it’s really interesting how (and why) aspects of more basic hentai games  have been taken and implemented into a larger, sprawling narrative, why that works, and why it was done that way for funding/production reasons.  My thought is if playing with form is interesting to you, then I can think of absolutely nothing more interesting than Yu No – and I guess it depends on your perspective, but does one see this is “merely” a hentai game with substandard writing, or – and this is my view – a monumental work that pieces together aspects of various forms and uses them in incredibly playful and exciting ways.  Again, why would we view this through a similar lens and ask of it the same questions we would of, say, a canonical literary classic.  Yu No, or any other visual novel, hasn’t had the chance to be canonised yet…

… and on that note, I think it’s really exciting to be able to see how this form develops and in what direction it goes.  Technology, production or fanbases etc may change so that we do get more “literary” styled works. (But I don’t personally see it working.  As an aside, in terms of pure prose stylings – translation issues aside – I don’t see VNs as being any worse than a popular novel on the fiction shelf.  I’ve read some fucking shit in my time… the quirk, maybe, is that VNs are very dialogue driven and dialogue heavy, but again I don’t see that as a problem).  An interesting parallel is anime, which definitely has gone through some phases and rapid changes over the last 40 years due to different fanbases and technologies.  Personally I don’t like the phase that we’re in but I’d neither deny everything produced right now, or take 3 examples from “right now” to conclude that the form is blatantly not any good.

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13 hours ago, Okarin said:

Just think of a fast food menu or some other greasy food.

Is it food? Yes. Is it nourishing? It is. Does it kill you? No, as long as you don't do it every day.

But, every once in a while, you want one of these. People are like that.

People generally aren't "gourmets", not in the things they eat, not in the entertainment they consume.

Wait you don't read VNs for at least 72 hours a day?

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24 minutes ago, iamnoob said:

Wait you don't read VNs for at least 72 hours a day?

Since nobody else is paying for my little twisted hobbies, I need to work in order to pay, at the very least, for the PC itself, its peripherals, that leaving aside the VNs and regular games that I pay for.

And work does consume time.

Besides, playing VNs all day is as boring as not playing anything at all.

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58 minutes ago, Okarin said:

Since nobody else is paying for my little twisted hobbies, I need to work in order to pay, at the very least, for the PC itself, its peripherals, that leaving aside the VNs and regular games that I pay for.

And work does consume time.

Besides, playing VNs all day is as boring as not playing anything at all.

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