Government propaganda in visual novels

[cedec0]

Except that's not at all what he said or was implying.

Actually it was. Sorry, re-read his statement: "Why would they give a fuck about a niche medium aimed at people that will largely never hold any kind of relevance to the politics in the country and won't care much about it anyway?"

Successful people, in politics or business, are always in a position to influence "politics in the country". So he is saying visual novel readers (the majority of which are still students or young adults begginning their carreer) will largely never achieve success (and be in a position of "relevence"). How is that not insulting?

They cater to a specific audience, and often times that audience are not people who go out in vote, and even if they were, the people who don't play VN's who vote would still outweigh the people who do play VN's and vote, because there are far more elderly and old people then VN players.

Your missing the point because his comment was about the FUTURE of VN players: "people that will largely never hold any kind of relevance"

Let's you as an example. User "Down" is saying you are a member member of a group that will largely never succeed at life. That means that in ten, twenty, thirty years, will not have achieved anything that would let you "hold any kind of relevance".

Is that OK with you? He is basically calling all of us on this forum losers.

Sorry for going a little overboard with this, but "Down"'s comment was really insulting if you think about it...

--------

Seperately, I sort of understand the point "Down" was tring to make, but I think it could have been done in a better way.

[cedec0]

I don't mean to insult anyone here, the fact is that the number of people playing VNs is incredibly small and therefore the impact of a VN on the population is ridiculous compared with that of a TV show.

Actually, you are missing something in your comparison between VNs and TV shows. That is the IMPACT of propaganda in different mediums:

Source:

Final report of the Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities (Internet Archive)

http://www.archive.org/details/finalreportofsel01unit

Finalreportofsel01unit.pdf (43.7 Mb)

http://www.archive.org/download/finalreportofsel01unit/finalreportofsel01unit.pdf

What the Chief of the covert action staff is saying is that a Visual Novel (which is basically an interactive book) "can significantly change the reader's attitude and action to an extent unmatched by the impact of any other single medium".

So a visual novel filled with global warming propaganda like Rewrite can have more impact than a hundred TV shows. For this reason, propaganda in written mediums (books and visual novels) has always been a higher priority than other forms of propaganda.

[neonie]

Your missing the point because his comment was about the FUTURE of VN players: "people that will largely never hold any kind of relevance"

I DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH HANDS WITH WHICH TO FACEPLAM

[Wahfuu]

LOL

[atchikotchi]

Before you say something stupid, try doing a TINY bit of research (one google search for "video games propaganda" for example). You would find articles like:

Government Pushes Propaganda Through Video Games

http://www.zerohedge...h-video-games-0

That article makes as much sense as this one

anyone can write an article and claim such things these days mate, and it seems pretty obvious that a game made by the government, such as America’s Army, is to attract people to it and it could be considered "propaganda". but saying all games or most games have propaganda? that's just nonsense

Saying "i know there are propaganda's in tv shows... but government propaganda on a Visual Novel? that's just silly." makes about as much sense as saying "i know the mafia is involved in drug trafficking... but mafia using extortion too? that's just silly."

To thinks that the government would insert propaganda on TV shows, movies, books, etc but leave video games untouch... Now THAT is just silly.

Did i say that there is no propaganda in video games? no. "but government propaganda on a Visual Novel" before you say someone sounds stupid, check your own words first mate. Most visual novels are (not all of course) eroges, even if there is propaganda, most people wouldn't really care, they are playing/reading it for enjoyment, and i doubt people would drop a VN just because there is like what? 2 or 5 sentences that have a topic that may be deemed as "propaganda"? or because it has a "obscure" joke that may be deemed as propaganda as well?

[Darklord Rooke]

What the Chief of the covert action staff is saying is that a Visual Novel (which is basically an interactive book) "can significantly change the reader's attitude and action to an extent unmatched by the impact of any other single medium".

His statement was made at the beginning of the 1960s, when tvs were still new but just beginning to take off and nobody even knew what a 'video game' was. What may have been true in the 1950s (remember, less than 10% of American households had tv sets at the beginning of the 1950s) is completely non-sensical now. Gaming is a very powerful medium, the internet is the most powerful medium that has ever existed. Books are no longer on the map.

[Zakamutt]

I think quite a few people in this thread need to finish Rewrite :s

Also from what I see the tunafish man segment seems to be comedy. but I have yet to read the vn.

[cedec0]

The topic of inclusion of government literature into Visual Novels is a very interesting topic. I'd like to see more examples of where people have seen this. I personally haven't noticed many, or have attributed them to the cultural zeitgeist. For the sake of an interesting topic, let's stay on topic.

Here is another VN propaganda example you might be familiar with: G senjou no maou (great VN. I give it a 9/10)

The game is overflowing with pro-police propaganda. It is nearly impossible to miss.

[spoiler warning]

1) The police are portrayed as assurdly competent. Think of the amount of time the invincible Maou spends worrying about the police and telling us how good they are.

2) The police are portrayed as incorruptible, to the point where they would even send Maou's killer to jail for ten years. (I can't believe that would ever have happened in the real world)

3) The police are shown as the only thing preventing complete anarchy, as seen in the end of G senjou no maou.

Anyone who took the pro-police propaganda in G senjou no maou seriously would have a terribly warped view of the Japanese police, as the reality is far different:

Japan is peaceful, safe and regimented not because of, but despite, the frequently disgraceful performance of its guardians. Individually, many Japanese police officers are honest and dedicated. But as an institution, the force they serve is arrogant, complacent and incompetent.

Source:

Japan's Inept Guardians - NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/25/opinion/japans-inept-guardians.html?_r=0

-------

As an aside, the gap between people's perception of the police and the reality is even bigger in the US:

The Real ‘CSI’: How America’s Patchwork System of Death Investigations Puts the Living at Risk

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-real-csi-americas-patchwork-system-of-death-investigation

CBS News Investigates Rape-Kit Backlog

https://www.rainn.org/news-room/news/rape-kit-backlog

Riding Along With the Cops in Murdertown, U.S.A. - NYTimes.com

www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17YouRhere-t.html

[Mayumi]

What I don't get is why you're surprised...visual novels are a media product and propaganda is produced by the media to manipulate public opinion in a way that's advantageous to the powers that be. They aren't in the business of telling you the truth or making sure you are well informed they are there to inoculate and entertain.

[Eurobeatz]

Here is another VN propaganda example you might be familiar with: G senjou no maou (great VN. I give it a 9/10)

The game is overflowing with pro-police propaganda. It is nearly impossible to miss.

[spoiler warning]

1) The police are portrayed as assurdly competent. Think of the amount of time the invincible Maou spends worrying about the police and telling us how good they are.

2) The police are portrayed as incorruptible, to the point where they would even send Maou's killer to jail for ten years. (I can't believe that would ever have happened in the real world)

3) The police are shown as the only thing preventing complete anarchy, as seen in the end of G senjou no maou.

Anyone who took the pro-police propaganda in G senjou no maou seriously would have a terribly warped view of the Japanese police, as the reality is far different:

Japan is peaceful, safe and regimented not because of, but despite, the frequently disgraceful performance of its guardians. Individually, many Japanese police officers are honest and dedicated. But as an institution, the force they serve is arrogant, complacent and incompetent.

Source:

Japan's Inept Guardians - NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/25/opinion/japans-inept-guardians.html?_r=0

-------

As an aside, the gap between people's perception of the police and the reality is even bigger in the US:

The Real ‘CSI’: How America’s Patchwork System of Death Investigations Puts the Living at Risk

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-real-csi-americas-patchwork-system-of-death-investigation

CBS News Investigates Rape-Kit Backlog

https://www.rainn.org/news-room/news/rape-kit-backlog

Riding Along With the Cops in Murdertown, U.S.A. - NYTimes.com

www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17YouRhere-t.html

There are also plenty of moments in which the police in G-senou no Maou are shown in a negative light.

For example:

1. Near the beginning of the visual novel, Gonzou says something about the mafia having allies in the police who would overlook their crimes.

2. Near the end of Haru's route, the police fail to get into Maou's blocked off city and need the help of two teenagers to succeed.

3. In Tsubaki's chapter, when Kyousuke is urging the family not to call the police, he says something about the police doing their jobs simply because they will get paid, and not because they want the people to be safe.

I don't know about you, but I know for a fact that I wouldn't assume that the Japanese police are amazing and perfectly capable simply because a visual novel portrays them as such.

[REtransInternational]

I don't know about you, but I know for a fact that I wouldn't assume that the Japanese police are amazing and perfectly capable simply because a visual novel portrays them as such.

It could also be said that maybe that is what the author wants the police to be like.

Remember that we're talking about VNs here, i.e. fiction, not the news.

"Any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental."

[Wahfuu]

How could I forget to mention Rewrite! I nearly stopped playing in disgust once I realized the entire visual novel was based on a false premise (man-made global warming is threatening to destroy the world).

A pity, because rewrite's common route was pretty good.

DEAR GOD THAT WAS HILARIOUS, A+

Seriously though, I do not care how much B-conspiracy-movie bullshit you feel like spewing but that's so wrong I honestly don't think I could explain it without explaining the entire story/philosophy of the visual novel, but goodjob on high levels of retard I guess.

[Muki]

I can't tell if this guy is a hardcore conspiracist or just your everyday troll/idiot.

Either way it's a Novel how much it effects you on a emotional/mental/psychological level is up to the reader.

[neonie]

Anyone want to buy a tinfoil hat? I've got some right here. $10+shipping.

[Tay]

Alright guys -- let's be respectful. Personal attacks have no place on these forums.

[cedec0]

I don't know about you, but I know for a fact that I wouldn't assume that the Japanese police are amazing and perfectly capable simply because a visual novel portrays them as such.

True, I did say the unrealistic police potrail was "nearly impossible to miss" and so I doubt it altered perceptions too much.

On the hand, just because it is ineffective and well intergrated into the story, doesn't change the fact that there are sections of the VN that put the police in such a positive light that it is little offsetting. For example,

Maou's pathological fear police during the kidnapping arc is so extreme it is simply bizarre at points.

------

On a side note, the type of propaganda in G senjou no maou is the most common type of propaganda:

Hollywood, Military Cooperation Often Mutually Beneficial

http://www.defense.gov/news/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=516

Any book, movie, visual novel, etc that deals extensively with terrorism, crime, or war benefits from cooperations with government agencies that deal with those subjects. Writers/producers gets access to classified/inside information and can interview government personnel involved in counter-terrorism etc. In exchange, the agencies that co-operate with the authors are portrayed in a positive light and are given some control over the script.

Well done, the result is something like G senjou no maou: a story with deep background knowledge (regarding police procedures, criminal/terrorist methodologies, etc) along with the necessary pro-police tone.

-------

DEAR GOD THAT WAS HILARIOUS, A+

Seriously though, I do not care how much B-conspiracy-movie bullshit you feel like spewing but that's so wrong I honestly don't think I could explain it without explaining the entire story/philosophy of the visual novel, but goodjob on high levels of retard I guess.

Thanks for the insults. Thanks also for also not making any coherant points that could add to the discussion.

"I honestly don't think I could explain it without explaining the entire story/philosophy of the visual novel"

Now THIS promises to be hilarious. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE... explain the entire story/philosophy of "Grisaia no Kajitsu" and how tunafish fish segment is an integral part of the visual novel.

It would make my day.

------

I can't tell if this guy is a hardcore conspiracist or just your everyday troll/idiot.

Isn't is insulting someone without adding anything to the discussion pretty much the definition of a troll?

-----

Anyone want to buy a tinfoil hat? I've got some right here. $10+shipping.

Why do you have a supply of tinfoil hats? Also, what are they for? I always wanted to ask a genuine tinfoil hat member the reasoning behind their "special" behavior.

(also, sorry, I am not up for the tinfoil hats. Try Wahfuu and Muki, it is more their level.)

[Tay]

Second warning. Be respectful to each other, or this topic closes.

[Darklord Rooke]

Isn't is insulting someone without adding anything to the discussion pretty much the definition of a troll?

No. A troll is someone who wants nothing more than to provoke people into an argument/confrontation. Good trolls are quite civil and, often, funny while doing so, but bad trolls don't have the smarts for it and they quickly descend into shouting and abuse. People these days have a negative image of trolls, but I recall a few who were, quite frankly, extremely witty and absolutely hilarious.

I prefer to call them wind-up merchants because that's what they do. They wind people up.

To be perfectly honest, I have my suspicions about you as well <_</> .

[Down]

About G-senjou no Maou.

Hollywood, Military Cooperation Often Mutually Beneficial

http://www.defense.g...cle.aspx?ID=516

Once again, you're quoting American blockbusters against Japanese VNs. Even assuming the Japanese government has the same policy the American one has, which I doubt, once again the target audience aren't even comparable in size. I honestly don't see how the japanese government could even try to reach such a small audience through such a media.

I'll grant you that VNs can have impact on its readers. Yet the way people are mostly going to form their opinions about things like the efficiency of their police through the news, or maybe TV shows that features police departments in action. As someone pointed out, the time when ideas could be vehicled to a very large public through books is gone. Communication media and TV are the real deal.

G-senjou's author is definitely someone with opinions and he tries to convey them in his works. This is obvious if you read his previous work, Sharin no Kuni, in which they are exposed in a very abrupt and unsubtle way. (And those are not really pro-government). While G-senjou has a much smoother writing, if it contains ideas than I'm pretty sure they are the author's ideas, not the government's. Who knows, maybe he actually trusts the police of his country.

A troll is someone who wants nothing more than to provoke people into an argument/confrontation.

If said troll start to put forth actual arguments and triggers a constructive debate, I'm not sure it's still a troll. At least not in the way 'troll' means now. I don't recall troll having been something else, but those things evolve quickly I guess.

[cedec0]

"assuming the Japanese government has the same policy the American"

I can't read Japanese, so it is hard to verify this 100%. However, I know agencies of the current Japanese government have PR departments and that those PR departments have been proven to engage in propaganda:

Japan’s government agencies used propaganda to skew public opinion in favor of nuclear energy

http://stratrisks.com/geostrat/1824

If Japan's nuclear-related agencies are using "inappropriate actions" in "an attempt to influence public opinion", don't you think law enforsement agencies could be doing the same?

I honestly don't see how the japanese government could even try to reach such a small audience through such a media.

The size of the audience doesn't matter if it is the VN authors who contact law enforment PR department asking for co-operations, which is most likely what happened with G senjou no maou.

The authors of G senjou no maou required an enormous amount of background information on subjects that aren't exactly common knowledge:

kinappings

police procedures

Stalkers

yakusa

hostage situations

car bombing

interrogating

negotiations (with terrorist)

etc...

A superficial understanding of these topics would not be enough to write such a great VN. The authors either needed to do a mountain of reasearch or they needed access to people they could ask "What would the police do if X?", "in a kinapping what happens if X", etc.

Visual novel authors aren't exactly rolling in money, so if there is a cheap way to do something (using government PR offices to gain access to detectives/intelligence officials/etc to ask questions) at a small cost (letting government PR offices review and make small modifications to the script), I have to believe they would do it.

As for government PR offices, it costs them nothing to allow VN authors access to people to interview, so they would have no reason to refuse. I don't think the size of the VN audience would be an issue.

[Kaguya]

I believe that the tuna scrap thingy in Grisaia is a joke, not advertisement for crappy/poisonous food.

I particularly don't feel any need to do something about government propaganda in VNs (or other kinds of media). It is something fairly present, but I think people should be able to do whatever they want with their works. In case they do it just because they feel like it, I see no reason to stop them. If you feel like gaining some extra cash by putting government advertisement, I also can't see why to stop you.

It may be wrong of the government if they pay to put their propaganda in this kind of media with the public money... I think there are other, more blatant wrongs that most of the governments around the world are doing though. And I feel these wrongs should have a higher priority. Realistically speaking, you can't solve all problems at once, and all political parties are usually interested in being able to make even more propaganda, so I think it'd be incredibly difficult to actually change something. And if we're actually up for actively trying to change something in the government, this really isn't where we should pour our efforts, I guess?

PS: I'm not saying to forget this matter. I think it should be noted and discussed. Just saying that there really are other things that need desperate change too (obviously, solving those matters do not make you unable to try and do something about this as well)

Well, as long as the government don't use public money, can't see anything bad about someone putting this kind of propaganda in their works. People should be able to advertise freely in a VN, movie, book or whatever that they themselves made. It's not like you're being forced to read that specific work, after all.

[Fox_DL]

Wow! This topic is hot! I am in the process of writing a political story and it does contain my views which may be as construed as propaganda in the future :P/. Only way to be sure is to ask the devs and writers themselves if they've been approached.

By the way I also believe in gov't cover-ups (I do believe we landed on the moon , though), citizens being dumbed down, and propaganda in VNs. What I mean is propaganda on the Japanese VNs. As for VNs produced in the west, not yet since we haven't succeeded in making it popular yet..

[Okami]

How could I forget to mention Rewrite! I nearly stopped playing in disgust once I realized the entire visual novel was based on a false premise (man-made global warming is threatening to destroy the world).

A pity, because rewrite's common route was pretty good.

Not really if you played Terra route then you should know

that it doesn't have anything to do with global warming but with people not having "happy memories"

[Mephisto]

I have to say you completely missed the point in the VN pretty much everywhere lol.

 

There was government commentary in Grisaia, in fact there were quite some good remarks there, yet you bring up Maguro man for some reason, which was referred to as a silly kids show in the first place. I don't know where you're going with this honestly.

 

Except Asuka Mirai isn't a raving lunatic. He's simply interested in UFOs and stuff, and I don't even know what this government cover up or whatever is supposed to be. He's definitely not crazy though, as you will find out in the fan disk.

[O. Van Bruce]

What is this, I don't even.

 

My deepest respect for Tay and Stephen for letting this thread go on (In 90% of the forums I know, this would have been closed already).

 

but man, this thread is just wow... specially the global warming conspiracionists...