Valve to abolish Steam Greenlight

[Radi]

Valve have announced plans to abolish Steam Greenlight and replace it with "Steam Direct". Basically seems like they will now decide which games they publish and maybe they will rise the 100$ fee to even 5k $. I'm quite worried about this, since I planned to launch my game in steam greenlight in a couple of months, now I don't know if i should launch it already or wait. How do you think this will affect the VN market in the west? Specially since Steam Greenlight offered a really good way of marketing indie VNs.

Edit: Source: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/02/10/valve-to-abolish-steam-greenlight-open-up-with-steam-direct/

Edited February 11, 2017 by Radi

[Zakamutt]

Quote

The next step in these improvements is to establish a new direct sign-up system for developers to put their games on Steam. This new path, which we’re calling ‘Steam Direct,’ is targeted for Spring 2017 and will replace Steam Greenlight. We will ask new developers to complete a set of digital paperwork, personal or company verification, and tax documents similar to the process of applying for a bank account. Once set up, developers will pay a recoupable application fee for each new title they wish to distribute, which is intended to decrease the noise in the submission pipeline.

“While we have invested heavily in our content pipeline and personalized store, we’re still debating the publishing fee for Steam Direct. We talked to several developers and studios about an appropriate fee, and they gave us a range of responses from as low as $100 to as high as $5,000. There are pros and cons at either end of the spectrum, so we’d like to gather more feedback before settling on a number.

I wonder how the whole recoupability thing will work. Well, seems like this could be bad, could be good, could really be pretty much.... anything. Overall I like the idea, though.

[Okarin]

On paper, and I mean on paper, it doesn't seem a bad thing... the article itself talks in a somewhat good light about the changes -minus the 5K fee.

It's bad for VN indie devs because from some years till now Steam has become a VN mecca. But then again, all you have to do is find a virtual platform that will publish your game with your conditions. Steam is growing, but other platforms such as Humble Bundle, GOG and more are growing too and incorporating more games into their catalogues. Steam has a wide advantage, but other platforms will also grow in the future.

[Darklord Rooke]

It's basically just ensuring games put onto the Steam service are serious and/or have at least a little capital behind them. It will curtail (to some extent) the flood of cheap, crappy, RPGMaker games that are appearing on the platform. In the absence of a quality curating service, it's not a bad alternative.

I don't mind.

[Decay]

It will also curtail the flood of cheap Ren'py games, which many people in this community aren't exactly thrilled about.

[Okarin]

2 hours ago, Decay said:

It will also curtail the flood of cheap Ren'py games, which many people in this community aren't exactly thrilled about.

One or two from time to time aren't bad, there are even some hidden gems, but they distract you from reading the real deal, and that's bad.

[Soulless Watcher]

As a long time follower of Jim Sterling I am very happy that steam greenlight is closing shop, seriously it turned steam into a massive fucking shit pile. 

As for the indie visual novel market, perhaps nutaku would be a alternative? I'm not too familiar with how hard it is to get on their storefront, but there are several low budget titles available on their website. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Soulless Watcher

[Zakamutt]

^I mean, I don't really see how this makes Steam any less inclusive unless payments go up a lot, which there's no guarantee of. You might get the reverse of your wish.

I literally never use steam discovery so I don't care how open it is, but I suppose others might. I honestly am unable to empathize.

[Soulless Watcher]

1 hour ago, Zakamutt said:

^I mean, I don't really see how this makes Steam any less inclusive unless payments go up a lot, which there's no guarantee of. You might get the reverse of your wish.

Now that I had time to think about it, I can't see this working at all unless the price was at the very least a couple thousand dollars. 

[Radi]

6 hours ago, Zakamutt said:

I literally never use steam discovery so I don't care how open it is, but I suppose others might. I honestly am unable to empathize.

People not empathising with developers and artist is a quite common thing, so don't worry. 

 

4 hours ago, Soulless Watcher said:

Now that I had time to think about it, I can't see this working at all unless the price was at the very least a couple thousand dollars. 

"A couple thousand dollars" is an unreachable ammount of money for quite a lot of indie developers. Steam Greenlight had an easy way to solve the shit flow: adding a couple of moderators. 

This wasn't the best solution, thats for sure. And I still don't get why the developers have to pay for people not wanting to see some bad games when they are scrolling through steam. As I said, adding moderators would have been an easy solution, but creating a pay wall is never a good idea. 

[Soulless Watcher]

Just now, Radi said:

"A couple thousand dollars" is an unreachable ammount of money for quite a lot of indie developers. Steam Greenlight had an easy way to solve the shit flow: adding a couple of moderators. 

This wasn't the best solution, thats for sure. And I still don't get why the developers have to pay for people not wanting to see some bad games when they are scrolling through steam. As I said, adding moderators would have been an easy solution, but creating a pay wall is never a good idea. 

It's a similar problem that YouTube has, both platforms desperately want everything to be moderated for free and they keep trying to shove that work onto the customer/watcher. Honestly, you would think that both are being run by libertarians. 

[Radi]

9 minutes ago, Soulless Watcher said:

It's a similar problem that YouTube has, both platforms desperately want everything to be moderated for free and they keep trying to shove that work onto the customer/watcher. Honestly, you would think that both are being run by libertarians. 

I agree, but I still think is a dishonest move. I can understand youtube, is way too big to be modarated by just a litte group of people, but steam greenlight is not that big. A couple of people would have been more than enough to ensure that the games that got greenlight were following the rules. Steam can afford to pay that...

[Okarin]

#makesteamgreatagain

[Darklord Rooke]

I remember back in the old days when Indie games were created by those with an undying passion and a willingness to sacrifice their time, sacrifice their money, and face vicious curses from angry pagans in a bid to create their game. These days we have the opposite, we have a race to the bottom by countless indies spoilt by the Steam era, spoilt by the ability to digitally publish their game and have it pushed at the faces of countless people for very little. I despair at what the Indie community has become.

There have been over 14,000 games greenlit not to mention those in the process either waiting or failed. The idea that a 'couple of moderators' could offer an effective curation process which emphasises quality as well as abiding by Steam's rules is ludicrous. These curators would have to go through a not insignificant number of games every day. Not to mention that Steam will cop the blame from angry developers whenever their game is rejected "why did Developer A get accepted and I didn't? Is it because I didn't grease any palms? I can grease palms too, you guys just never told me I had to do that! This is blatant favourtism, it's bias, tell me where you live so I can light your trashcan on fire and hold up some signs!"

Steam has copped a lot of flak from developers over the years, and for what? For publishing developers games on their platform for almost nothing? For exposing their game to the biggest community of gamers for almost nothing? Modern indie developers have little clue how good they've had it.

And now it looks like it's coming to an end, as most good things do. Having zero quality control over the process has damaged the Steam brand. A thorough curation process is always the best option, but the bigger Steam gets and the more games there are the harder that becomes. So now we get to a pay wall. A couple of thousand dollars is not a significant amount of money for those serious in creating games, and it will limit the number of cheap, soulless games get developed by people who don't invest much in its creation. 

And the fee will likely be returned to the developer once the game hits a certain "revenue target". So now your game is rewarded for actually selling. 

If people don't agree with this, then Indies should band together and make an Indie platform a success. Like Desura.

[Radi]

1 hour ago, Darklord Rooke said:

I remember back in the old days when Indie games were created by those with an undying passion and a willingness to sacrifice their time, sacrifice their money, and face vicious curses from angry pagans in a bid to create their game. These days we have the opposite, we have a race to the bottom by countless indies spoilt by the Steam era, spoilt by the ability to digitally publish their game and have it pushed at the faces of countless people for very little. I despair at what the Indie community has become.

I remember back in the old days when people said "don't study art, you will starve to death and live under a bridge" Well I can remember it, people still says it quite often. But damn, these evil depevelopers trying to make a living from their job, how dare they? /s

Quote

There have been over 14,000 games greenlit not to mention those in the process either waiting or failed. The idea that a 'couple of moderators' could offer an effective curation process which emphasises quality as well as abiding by Steam's rules is ludicrous. These curators would have to go through a not insignificant number of games every day. Not to mention that Steam will cop the blame from angry developers whenever their game is rejected "why did Developer A get accepted and I didn't? Is it because I didn't grease any palms? I can grease palms too, you guys just never told me I had to do that! This is blatant favourtism, it's bias, tell me where you live so I can light your trashcan on fire and hold up some signs!"

I do agree that modarating is a "subjective" thing. But it could be done, actually, we already have moderators everywhere. Even if sometimes they are not fair, most of the times is way better to have them that just simple chaos.

Quote

And now it looks like it's coming to an end, as most good things do. Having zero quality control over the process has damaged the Steam brand. A thorough curation process is always the best option, but the bigger Steam gets and the more games there are the harder that becomes. So now we get to a pay wall. A couple of thousand dollars is not a significant amount of money for those serious in creating games, and it will limit the number of cheap, soulless games get developed by people who don't invest much in its creation. 

And the fee will likely be returned to the developer once the game hits a certain "revenue target". So now your game is rewarded for actually selling. 

If people don't agree with this, then Indies should band together and make an Indie platform a success. Like Desura.

The problem with all of this is that they are getting rid of any kind of voting process. A lot of games didn't pass through Steam Greenlight. Now seems like every one able to pay the "fee" will get his game published. How is that a better system?

"A couple of thousand of dollars is not a significant ammount of money for those serious in creating game" I don't think you said this with bad intentions, but is far from reality and is even insulting to some extent. A couple of thousand of dollars is an unreachable ammount of money in a lot of countries. It might not be in EEUU or in North-Europe, but it is in the rest of the world. 

Anyways, this isn't the end of indie games. Is just a way of making it harder for us without solving anything. But as you said, other platforms are still there, so I guess we will have to stick to them for now. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Radi

[Darklord Rooke]

17 minutes ago, Radi said:

I remember back in the old days when people said "don't study art, you will starve to death and live under a bridge" Well I can remember it, people still says it quite often. But damn, these evil depevelopers trying to make a living from their job, how dare they? /s

Which results in people following art out of passion instead of people following art to make a quick buck. Which is what indie games were traditionally about as opposed to making a quick buck which is what mainstream games are commonly derided for.

If what you’re concerned about is primarily making money, Indie Gaming has traditionally not been a viable career choice. Neither is writing (most writers live in poverty) neither is being a starving artist. This is just the reality of the situation. If you’re primary concern is making money, the traditional advice is to stay away from Indie gaming. If you want to pursue that path than complain that it’s hard to make money, then I honestly don’t know what to say to you.

Other than stay away from Indie Gaming, I suppose.

18 minutes ago, Radi said:

The problem with all of this is that they are getting rid of any kind of voting process. A lot of games didn't pass through Steam Greenlight. Now seems like every one able to pay the "fee" will get his game published. How is that a better system?

"A couple of thousand of dollars is not a significant ammount of money for those serious in creating game" I don't think you said this with bad intentions, but is far from reality and is even insulting to some extent. A couple of thousand of dollars is an unreachable ammount of money in a lot of countries. It might not be in EEUU or in North-Europe, but it is in the rest of the world. 

Anyways, this isn't the end of indie games. Is just a way of making it harder for us without solving anything. But as you said, other platforms are still there, so I guess we will have to stick to them for now. 

Most games pass through Steam Greenlight, and it has failed in what it set out to do. Putting down a couple of thousand bucks shows you aren’t a 15 year old kid chucking a 100 buck game on Steam for shits and giggles. Which gets upvoted on Greenlight by everybody in their grade for, again, shits and giggles.

Problems will occur for people in different regions, potentially solved by regional pricing (a nifty invention that I don’t benefit from, even though the Aussie dollar is worth less than the Antartican variety I assume.)

I’ve followed Indie developers who have spent over a 100k and a decade of their life crafting their games. 2,000 bucks? Not a significant investment for anyone in the Western world. And regional pricing will solve regional currency differences.

[Darklord Rooke]

8 minutes ago, Darklord Rooke said:

And regional pricing will solve regional currency differences.

And if it doesn’t, time to move platforms.

At the end of the day Steam’s goals are different to your goals. They may align at certain points but overall they are different. If the platform no longer meets your requirements, an Indie platform may be better. Indie platforms need more attention and focus on them anyway.

[Radi]

 

13 minutes ago, Darklord Rooke said:

If what you’re concerned about is primarily making money, Indie Gaming has traditionally not been a viable career choice. Neither is writing (most writers live in poverty) neither is being a starving artist. This is just the reality of the situation. If you’re primary concern is making money, the traditional advice is to stay away from Indie gaming. If you want to pursue that path than complain that it’s hard to make money, then I honestly don’t know what to say to you.

Other than stay away from Indie Gaming, I suppose.

Painting, programming, composing, etc are jobs. It doesn't matter if people does them because it is their passion, every one needs to eat. My primary concern is not making money, is to make a living out of art. Those "poor" artist were the reality of the situation 5 years ago, but that is changing. With platforms like Patreon and Youtube, being an artist is way easier (which doesn't mean its easy at all). Anybody with more than two brain cells knows that you need to make good games to make some money, and even if you do that is still hard. Thats why I disagree with Valve on its way to "fix" this problem, they seem to be going two steps backward with this change. If you want to call that "complaining", okay, whatever.

 

[Decay]

41 minutes ago, Darklord Rooke said:

And if it doesn’t, time to move platforms.

At the end of the day Steam’s goals are different to your goals. They may align at certain points but overall they are different. If the platform no longer meets your requirements, an Indie platform may be better. Indie platforms need more attention and focus on them anyway.

An indie platform is almost never better because nobody uses them. Even games ill-suited for Steam will sell far better there than on perfectly matched indie platforms. I mean, just look at the entire VN industry. 

51 minutes ago, Darklord Rooke said:

Which results in people following art out of passion instead of people following art to make a quick buck. Which is what indie games were traditionally about as opposed to making a quick buck which is what mainstream games are commonly derided for.

If what you’re concerned about is primarily making money, Indie Gaming has traditionally not been a viable career choice. Neither is writing (most writers live in poverty) neither is being a starving artist. This is just the reality of the situation. If you’re primary concern is making money, the traditional advice is to stay away from Indie gaming. If you want to pursue that path than complain that it’s hard to make money, then I honestly don’t know what to say to you.

Other than stay away from Indie Gaming, I suppose.

Or how about we try to find a way so these people can ply their craft while also making a decent living? Just because this has historically been infeasible doesn't mean it has to be forever. We finally have the tools to make this possible in the modern era, and so attempts to make artists' lives easier should be celebrated, not condemned. Are you really going to be the troglodyte complaining about how artists aren't starving anymore? Seriously? How miserable can you be?

Edited February 13, 2017 by Decay

[Soulless Watcher]

9 minutes ago, Decay said:

Or how about we try to find a way so these people can ply their craft while also making a decent living? Just because this has historically been infeasible doesn't mean it has to be forever. We finally have the tools to make this possible in the modern era, and so attempts to make artists' lives easier should be celebrated, not condemned.

....... aka Patreon? 

[Decay]

Yes. But Patreon isn't a one-size-fits-all solution. It's specifically poorly suited to game development, due to the lengthy development cycles.

[Zakamutt]

Depends. Maybe the adaptation is to make more and smaller games, or iterative design.

[Zalor]

Going to throw my 2 cents here despite having an essay I need to work on.

The western VN market needs professional artists badly, but in order to get them they need an opportunity to earn money from making VNs. However, the market is still really small here, and investing thousands of dollars to release your VN is a huge risk. Demanding thousands of dollars is just going to kill VN development more than anything else imo. Even the people who do have the time, resources, and skills to make a decent VN will be hesitant, given how small the overall market is for them.

I am glad to see serious and well-trained artists like Radi wanting to contribute to this medium. We don't have enough people like him/her, and the western VN market desperately needs professionalism. Anything that could discourage serious artists from developing VNs is a problem.

You could argue that people who can gather several thousand dollars are serious enough to produce a good VN/game. But actually, it is more likely that these people will be more motivated by profit than anything else. If it costs thousands just to get your game on the market, then developers will have to focus more on making money on their title than on truly expressing themselves. A system that makes it more expensive to release indie VNs, will likely result in more Sakura Spirit clones than anything else.     

[Radi]

Its hard to use Patreon for that, but hey, lets be positive: God thank Patreon and people unsatisfiable need for fan art nudes    

[Zakamutt]

Everyone keeps talking about several thousand dollars, assuming the real highball figures will happen. Meanwhile, if Steam keeps the $100 cost, devs may potentially earn more as this will be recoupable unlike greenlight which apparently sent it to charity; greenlight is also 100 bucks, though I believe you don't need to do this more than once.

If and only if the fees increase dramatically will this necessarily even matter. Discussion should reflect this.