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Is the increased popularity of Dating Sims a threat to Visual Novels in the West?


Zalor

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The question I have is a bit more complex than the title I have, so allow me to give some context. From what I have seen just in my own personal life, otome games in the west have reached a popularity that visual novels are failing to achieve. And while otome games are a sub genre of VNs, their market is completely different from the market of story based VNs. In real life, I have met around 10 girls who I am decently acquainted with who play otome games. When I asked if they played other visual novels, they said no. From the information I gathered from them, they don't care about visual novels as an alternate medium, but only care about dating sims. They like otome games as dating sims. And Otome games are a genre that are growing on the western mobile market. Mystic Messenger has gained a lot of popularity these past couple of months, and with its success is very likely going to bring more otome games into the market. I initially thought this would be a good thing, since if otome games gain more popularity, then maybe those people will expend their interests into visual novels. But from what I have noticed, there is no evidence that suggests that the growth of the Otome game genre is going to benefit visual novels. In fact, I think it might even damage the potential for the visual novel market to expand in the west. 

By Otome games, I am mostly referring to the shitty dating sim ones that plague the mobile phone market. I know that there are some good story based ones out there, and sadly those seem to be just as unpopular as most story based visual novels. My real concern, is with how Dating sims are overall doing much better in the west than story based VNs. On the male side of things, shitty games like Sakura spirit and Nekopara I think are doing just as much harm to the reputation of Visual novels in the west. 

The popularity of dating sims is perpetuating the false understanding of visual novels as dating sims. VNs ≠ Dating sims! While I don't have anything wrong with dating sims existing as a genre, I do think it is very important to create a distinction between dating sims and VNs. Just like how it is important to create a distinction between Nukige and story-based visual novels. Just because they use similar formatting, does not mean that they are synonymous with each other. But the popularity that otome games are getting, are going to have more people associate VNs as dating sims, and this will make it hard for actual story based VNs to expand their market in the west.

Furthermore, Dating-sim oriented Otome games in particular are marketing themselves to a western audience much better than VNs are imo. Developers for these games realize that this genre thrives most on portable devices. And I think it is that realization that is helping them expand their market so well. VNs on the other hand are still mostly just pc games, especially if you only take the western audience into account (since few psp and vita ports ever make it to the west). Not only are VNs limited to computers, but they are limited to windows. They largely exclude mac users, which is a huge problem in the west considering how many people have macs. Few people will do what I did and buy a notably more expensive ultra-portable windows laptop to enjoy VNs on the go like I did. Most people settle for the cheaper mac-books. And for people who are non-gamers and who have not yet discovered visual novels, it is perfectly reasonable for them to do so.  

Maybe I am in the minority out there, but I genuinely see visual novels as a medium of story telling in the light that books and movies are. Visual Novels can tell many types of stories and can encompass any genre of fiction they want. Hell, there are even some amazing genres like denpa that I think are basically exclusive to VNs. In terms of depth and writing quality, there are visual novels out there that offer the same amount of intellectual depth and meaning that some books do. I fell in love with this medium because I like experiencing interesting stories with the accompaniment of music and art. To see a medium I love getting neglected for mere dating sims just really pisses me off. I would really love to hear what other people think. 

 

Edit: After discussing it out a bit, I realize that my problem is not with Otome games per se, but with Dating sims as a whole.

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There's a lot I disagree with on your perception of otomege, but all of that would take way too long to talk about and ultimately doesn't matter to the point I'll try to make, so I'll just not touch that. I also think not classifying them as VNs in the first place is almost ridiculous, but that also doesn't matter here and I'm just going on a tangent about my dissatisfaction with it.

The same way bishoujo moe games like Nekopara won't destroy the medium despite being overwhelmingly more popular than story-driven VNs, otome games won't. 

They're even marketed towards different audiences (unlike those bishoujo moe games, which plot and character driven games also appeal to the audience of) and on different platforms. 

Guys won't stop buying their games about cute girls with swords because there's suddenly an influx of games about being wooed by hot vampire guys. 

Guys who don't even buy games about cute girls with swords because they care about the story of those games certainly won't stop buying their hipster fata morgana or whatever else it is they buy. 

Ultimately, I believe otomege thriving or not simply doesn't matter for the health of the niche you're worried about.

Now, I know there's a point about otome games shaping the public perception of what a visual novel is that can be made here, but I don't think that'd ever be a problem (at least not more than what it already is), since the VN community has worked out pretty well with people already having very warped ideas about what VNs are anyway. 

In fact, I believe getting people more used to the VN style in general is already super likely to drag in fans (like those guys who started reading VNs because they played some Neptunia game,) so it's probably something worth celebrating.  

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4 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Now, I know there's a point about otome games shaping the public perception of what a visual novel is that can be made here, but I don't think that'd ever be a problem (at least not more than what it already is), since the VN community has worked out pretty well with people already having very warped ideas about what VNs are anyway. 

Its mostly this aspect that concerns me. I am worried that Otome games might shape the public perception, and get people to think that dating sims = visual novels. My point about not classifying otome games as VNs I realize is a bit weird, but I mean it more in the way that I don't see dating sims as VNs. But I suppose it would be more accurate to label it as a genre of VN than to classify it as something completely different. My big fear is that people will mostly associate VNs as dating sims, that is what I don't want to happen.  

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11 minutes ago, Zalor said:

Its mostly this aspect that concerns me. I am worried that Otome games might shape the public perception, and get people to think that dating sims = visual novels. My point about not classifying otome games as VNs I realize is a bit weird, but I mean it more in the way that I don't see dating sims as VNs. But I suppose it would be more accurate to label it as a genre of VN than to classify it as something completely different. My big fear is that people will mostly associate VNs as dating sims, that is what I don't want to happen.  

I think visual novels already have a public perception of being dating sims, with the overwhelming success of Nekopara compared to everything else, and how the Sakura series has been able to thrive. 

Sex scenes existing and a big part of the active community losing their shit over them whenever they're removed from a game certainly doesn't help either (though amusingly, that part of the community seems to have an incredibly low effect on sales. Certainly helps outsiders to shape their view of what the community wants when they see constant bitching about it, though!)

From what I know, the western market did start a long time ago with people buying nukige in jp to masturbate and being unable to read a single word of it, too, which certainly doesn't help either.

In the end, I believe that perception already exists, that it won't harm the community or story-based titles and that otome games have little to do with it.

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8 minutes ago, Ryechu said:

I take a standard visual novel, replace every guy with a girl, and every girl with a guy.

Does anything change?

I would argue yes. You can't take a story-based VN like Swan Song, Subahibi, Symphonic Rain, etc, and just replace genders. The characters are not cookie-cutter and are not there simply for the purpose of dating. While I am targeting Otome games, I am really targeting Dating sims as a whole. Its just, I think Otome games have adapted much better to the western market than male-oriented dating sims have. 

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1 hour ago, Zalor said:

The question I have is a bit more complex than the title I have, so allow me to give some context. From what I have seen just in my own personal life, otome games in the west have reached a popularity that visual novels are failing to achieve. And while otome games are a sub genre of VNs, their market is completely different from the market of story based VNs. In real life, I have met around 10 girls who I am decently acquainted with who play otome games. When I asked if they played other visual novels, they said no. From the information I gathered from them, they don't care about visual novels as an alternate medium, but only care about dating sims. They like otome games as dating sims. And Otome games are a genre that are growing on the western mobile market. Mystic Messenger has gained a lot of popularity these past couple of months, and with its success is very likely going to bring more otome games into the market. I initially thought this would be a good thing, since if otome games gain more popularity, then maybe those people will expend their interests into visual novels. But from what I have noticed, there is no evidence that suggests that the growth of the Otome game genre is going to benefit visual novels. In fact, I think it might even damage the potential for the visual novel market to expand in the west. 

If they only care about the dating element they are the female equivalent of the sakura crowd, they only play crap otomege for mobiles. High quality otomege such as code realize or Hakuouki are no different than VNs.

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1 minute ago, WinterfuryZX said:

If they only care about the dating element they are the female equivalent of the sakura crowd, they only play crap otomege for mobiles. High quality otomege such as code realize or Hakuouki are no different than VNs.

Thanks for bringing that up. That is a really good point that I think I was ignoring up until now. The good otome games seem to be just as unpopular as good VNs are. 

It's just a shame that shitty dating sims are more popular than story-focused stories. I didn't realize what my main argument was until after hearing what you and @Kaguya said. But, what I really should have titled the thread was "Are dating sims a threat to Visual Novels". In fact, I might make that edit now.

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There's a number of strange ideas in the OP.  Let me point out the ones that caught my eye.

Quote

Otome games perpetuate the false understanding of visual novels as dating sims. VNs ≠ Dating sims!

This is just your perspective.  Another perspective is that VNs are very much a genre of wish-fulfillment games for lonely men in their late teens and early 20's, focused on a cast of attractive female companions (inevitably high schoolers) to choose for the male protagonist to date and ultimately have sex with.  Both perspectives are valid.  Both perspectives oversimplify.

As I see it, the otome genre is just the converse of the much more common bishoujo genre: games focused on a cast of attractive males rather than attractive females, made for females rather than males.  They tend to be on mobile devices because that's where the female "gamers" are.  Young adult romantic fiction has been targeted at females for a long time now, so it's no real surprise that otome games would catch on.  The market was already there, waiting to be tapped.

Quote

 Few people will do what I did and buy a notably more expensive ultra-portable windows laptop to enjoy VNs on the go like I did. Most people settle for the cheaper mac-books.

Are we living in the same world?  Macs are generally more expensive for the equivalent hardware.  There's even a term for it: the Apple tax.  People pay more for the premium branding, which commands respect due to the ease of use and excellent service plans.

And why would you need expensive hardware to play 2D VNs anyway? 

Edited by sanahtlig
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Okay, sorry. After discussing it out a bit, I re-oriented my argument a bit, and the title reflects that. I also edited the OP accordingly. 

@sanahtlig: To get a well built laptop that is not flimsy and bulky, and has the portability factor that mac books do. Than you will be paying more money for a windows. My Dell XPS 13 cost more than a mac book would have. Of course, there are cheaper windows laptops out there. But I feel that portability is important for reading VNs on the go. And as somebody who used to have a bulky cheaper laptop, those things are not really built to be "on the go". 

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31 minutes ago, Zalor said:

I would argue yes. You can't take a story-based VN like Swan Song, Subahibi, Symphonic Rain, etc, and just replace genders. The characters are not cookie-cutter and are not there simply for the purpose of dating. While I am targeting Otome games, I am really targeting Dating sims as a whole. Its just, I think Otome games have adapted much better to the western market than male-oriented dating sims have. 

I can tell you the same thing with Sharnoth, Sona-nyl and Code Realize, VNs with female protags, still has a plot.

 

And then, obviously Otomege are way more popular than "normal" VNs, but that won't change a thing, the actual market is shaped by Nukige, not Otome. 

 

20 minutes ago, Eclipsed said:

Otome arent ruining story based VNs, fking Code Realize is golden, it's moeges that are.

And if we continue like that, i'm 99% more hyped by the Sona-nyl release than for any VN with male protag beside Dies Irae.

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22 minutes ago, Eclipsed said:

Otome arent ruining story based VNs, fking Code Realize is golden, it's moeges that are.

Lol, I think I have even bigger problems with moege. But I've just given up complaining about them. Also, I updated my post. I realize that there are good Otomege out there, so I've restructured my argument towards dating sims.

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1 hour ago, Zalor said:

The question I have is a bit more complex than the title I have, so allow me to give some context. From what I have seen just in my own personal life, otome games in the west have reached a popularity that visual novels are failing to achieve. And while otome games are a sub genre of VNs, their market is completely different from the market of story based VNs. In real life, I have met around 10 girls who I am decently acquainted with who play otome games. When I asked if they played other visual novels, they said no. From the information I gathered from them, they don't care about visual novels as an alternate medium, but only care about dating sims. They like otome games as dating sims. And Otome games are a genre that are growing on the western mobile market. Mystic Messenger has gained a lot of popularity these past couple of months, and with its success is very likely going to bring more otome games into the market. I initially thought this would be a good thing, since if otome games gain more popularity, then maybe those people will expend their interests into visual novels. But from what I have noticed, there is no evidence that suggests that the growth of the Otome game genre is going to benefit visual novels. In fact, I think it might even damage the potential for the visual novel market to expand in the west. 

By Otome games, I am mostly referring to the shitty dating sim ones that plague the mobile phone market. I know that there are some good story based ones out there, and sadly those seem to be just as unpopular as most story based visual novels. My real concern, is with how Dating sims are overall doing much better in the west than story based VNs. On the male side of things, shitty games like Sakura spirit and Nekopara I think are doing just as much harm to the reputation of Visual novels in the west. 

The popularity of dating sims is perpetuating the false understanding of visual novels as dating sims. VNs ≠ Dating sims! While I don't have anything wrong with dating sims existing as a genre, I do think it is very important to create a distinction between dating sims and VNs. Just like how it is important to create a distinction between Nukige and story-based visual novels. Just because they use similar formatting, does not mean that they are synonymous with each other. But the popularity that otome games are getting, are going to have more people associate VNs as dating sims, and this will make it hard for actual story based VNs to expand their market in the west.

Furthermore, Dating-sim oriented Otome games in particular are marketing themselves to a western audience much better than VNs are imo. Developers for these games realize that this genre thrives most on portable devices. And I think it is that realization that is helping them expand their market so well. VNs on the other hand are still mostly just pc games, especially if you only take the western audience into account (since few psp and vita ports ever make it to the west). Not only are VNs limited to computers, but they are limited to windows. They largely exclude mac users, which is a huge problem in the west considering how many people have macs. Few people will do what I did and buy a notably more expensive ultra-portable windows laptop to enjoy VNs on the go like I did. Most people settle for the cheaper mac-books. And for people who are non-gamers and who have not yet discovered visual novels, it is perfectly reasonable for them to do so.  

Maybe I am in the minority out there, but I genuinely see visual novels as a medium of story telling in the light that books and movies are. Visual Novels can tell many types of stories and can encompass any genre of fiction they want. Hell, there are even some amazing genres like denpa that I think are basically exclusive to VNs. In terms of depth and writing quality, there are visual novels out there that offer the same amount of intellectual depth and meaning that some books do. I fell in love with this medium because I like experiencing interesting stories with the accompaniment of music and art. To see a medium I love getting neglected for mere dating sims just really pisses me off. I would really love to hear what other people think. 

 

Edit: After discussing it out a bit, I realize that my problem is not with Otome games per se, but with Dating sims as a whole.

Something to keep in mind is that Dating Sims regularly make a resurgence, and a small but significant proportion of the VN community came from people seeking dating sims who got hooked on slice-of-life VNs.

One thing about dating sims is that they are relatively easy to make (the basic system hasn't changed since the nineties, with only minor details different between games).  Another thing is that they don't require a ton of processing power, so they can easily make their way onto mobile platforms.  This has made the popularity of western-made games of this type rise in recent years.

One other thing to keep in mind is a fundamental difference between a true dating sim and a VN (including most otomege).  Dating sims are active experiences where you create your own love experience from the options available.  However, VNs are essentially a passive experience where you experience other people's romances in most cases.  This is where tastes tend to split off between VN lovers and dating sim lovers...

A dating sim lover will often find it frustrating to play your average slice-of-life VN, as they won't feel they are an active participant in the story.  In opposition, your average VN lover will find dating sims frustrating because they are interested in the characters' perceptions, not in inserting their own into the story beyond a choice of heroine. 

Keep in mind that I'm speaking about 'center of the road' players on both sides, not the 'fringe' players who can enjoy both.

Another issue is that otomege have one huge advantage over male-oriented VNs when appealing to young female dating sim lovers... the sexual element is rarely, if ever, blatant outside of a few scenes here and there (extremely unrealistic situations that stop short of actual H).

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1 hour ago, Ryechu said:

I take a standard visual novel, replace every guy with a girl, and every girl with a guy.

Does anything change?

Yes.  I like to tell myself that this wouldn't change anything; that a good game is a good game; and that I would play an otome game with a good story.  But in practice, if I'm being honest with myself, I probably wouldn't play the gender-bender version.  It just doesn't have the built in appeal that a bunch of cute girls does.  I haven't played Ozmafia for that reason (well, and I'm not sure I'd like a game about the mob).

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1 hour ago, Vorathiel said:

I came here only to say - it's really a missed opportunity to not bring VNs (maybe smaller, older titles?) to mobile phones.

Not really a fan of that myself, especially since Apple won't do 18+ Apps/games. Also, saying moege is ruining visual novels is a crock when moege make up over half of them and are what probably sell the most. Granted, I am getting tired of straight up moege myself, but I don't have a problem with that genre and certainly do not think they are ruining the visual novel market. As far as what the OP is saying, I get the difference between dating sims and visual novels. There are a lot of garbage dating sims out there and personally I have no interest in them. I prefer actually story driven visual novels myself.

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Otomege... this is just my opinion based on the twenty or so Otomege I've tried.  However, in most Otomege the protagonist tends to have a terminal case of DID Syndrome (Damsel in Distress Syndrome).  I dunno why, but Otomege are in some ways even more sexist than charage/moege...

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@Zalor I kinda feel as though you missed the point why Mystic Messenger is so popular. A traditional dating sim is almost like an RPG experience, you create a character and dictate the development of that character and the story. Mystic Messenger is different enough that I don't consider it to be a traditional dating sim. You're not creating a character that lives in a computer world, rather the characters are interacting with you, in real life. Which means I consider it virtually augmented reality.

A group of hot boys interacting with you on your phone in real life? Of course it was going to get millions of users. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, a bunch of hot girls interacting with you on your phone in real life, imagine how many sales that would generate. 

Taking something that Sanah said for a moment, because this genre is built on wish fulfillment for lonely men, imagine what's going to happen to the genre when augmented reality and virtual reality become more of a thing 0.0

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8 minutes ago, Darklord Rooke said:

A group of hot boys interacting with you on your phone in real life? Of course it was going to get millions of users. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, a bunch of hot girls interacting with you on your phone in real life, imagine how many sales that would generate. 

Taking something that Sanah said for a moment, because this genre is built on wish fulfillment for lonely men, imagine what's going to happen to the genre when augmented reality and virtual reality become more of a thing 0.0

Probably something like this.

 

Edited by sanahtlig
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Definitely an interesting topic, but from what I can see the one killing reputations of vns are mostly those half-baked story novels like the infamous "Sakura series" and the abundance of moege with no actual or substantial plot involved. I won't comment if it was a nukige, but as if its bad enough you can't enjoy the story you can't even fap to it for relieve purposes? Dang what else is it good for?

Honestly speaking even nukige's give you a bang for your buck for making stories so ridiculous that you can just laugh it off or say you paid for a good jerk off material.
I'd rather read To-Love-Ru Darkness manga, at least the art from Yabuki Kentaro gives off as a better strip tease and the story is just literally makes fun of themselves being plain ridiculous.

But I believe the VN community is quite strong, as many of us really enjoy VN as a good reading material to broaden our views or good entertainment. Through so many forums, you can see that most old timers are an eccentric bunch that really only likes specific flavors and have stayed that way in a niche community. Don't think we will change our ways anytime soon, and being so we will attract more people of our kind instead of just the trend followers.

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6 hours ago, Weis13 said:

Through so many forums, you can see that most old timers are an eccentric bunch that really only likes specific flavors and have stayed that way in a niche community. Don't think we will change our ways anytime soon, and being so we will attract more people of our kind instead of just the trend followers.

Yeah, you really nailed it. Btw, welcome to the fuwanovel!

I think there are enough story-focused vns now on steam that that front has a lot of opportunity to attract new members.

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Wall of text, man, not reading.

But anyway... for me a dating "sim" are those with stats, schedule for the week, and that kind of shit. Like Shira Oka: Second Chances and old proto-visual novels.

Visual novels have no gameplay.

If for "dating sim" you understand a romance visual novel, with routes and whatnot, that's what most eroge are, I believe that you're punching the Great Wall. This kind of game will always exist and thrive.

Remember that eroge is just a visual novel with porn scenes, and most romance games tend to fall under this category.

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