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Finally here, Himawari -The Sunflower- released


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On 8.01.2017 at 6:17 PM, Vorathiel said:

I'm reading after stories, I'm in the first one, and... it's really good! Best part of the game, easily.
It have great mood (with elements of even 'mystery thriller' in it!), good story, interesting, mature characters, no idiotic unfunny humour, no Aqua in sight, nobody resembles of Aries airheadness, and overall - it's good. It's really good.
Cheap backgrounds reminds me of Tsukihime, no voice acting, so I envision characters as probably a little more mature than intended, and I really like it.

Espacially Momoji, she's a nice 'protagonists', she's a little quirky, but I symphatize with her and envision her as a tall, slender, nov very pretty, but elegant character.

And then remake developers said...

FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU HARD IN THE ASS FUCKER. How dare you enjoy our story? How dare you envision those characters as much better looking characters than what we envisioned? Here you are, eat this shit asshole.
 

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8Z4G3bz.jpg

You wanted to have something good? Nope, we will coat all that good story with shitties of the shitty moe, dumb, emptyheaded looking mummin.


I'm devastated. This is 3h long story and I need a break in the middle of it.
Fuck this VN. Fuck Frontwing. Never again will I read anything from them (besides Grisaia, I need to finish that shitfest trilogy).

Himawari was clearly not meant for you.

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Yup, finally something we can clearly agree upon.
The truth is though - the VNs 'for me' are sometimes hard to distinguish from those 'not for me'. I loved i/o and Remeber11. I disliked Ever17. I loved 'comedy gold' Majikoi'. I hated another 'comedy gold' Grisaia. It's really hard to find something that I know it would please me.
Himawari ought to be "character driven story in 'grounded' sf setting, with deep, developed characters". And I like character driven stories. I love deep characters. But here... I disliked everybody except for Momoji, and situations and 'depth' of those characters were way out of my 'likings'. (I don't found them particullary deep either). So, yeah. It's hard. But I will not stop trying, because when I find gems, all this struggling, all this rage, all this sadness and pain turns to be a worthwile road to happiness. Because for each Himawari there is Flowers, and for each Sharin no Kuni there is Kara No Shoujo 2.

...and I kinda love 'hating' things. So there is also that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Funnerific - did you read Sunflower?

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On 8.01.2017 at 6:17 PM, Vorathiel said:


Espacially Momoji, she's a nice 'protagonists', she's a little quirky, but I symphatize with her and envision her as a tall, slender, nov very pretty, but elegant character.

I can definitely agree with that part, Momiji looked way too moe for her age. Even worse is the fact that the second short story shows her looking exactly the same, even though she should be in her late 30s iirc.

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1 hour ago, Vorathiel said:

@Funnerific - did you read Sunflower?

I read everything up to and including Aqua route. Frankly I hate the writing in this game, I have a lot of issues with it, and my opinion of Daigo matches yours.

Here's everything I can think of (spoilers, of course)

Spoiler

- Fuck Daigo, seriously. I won't even go into detail here since you've said it all.

- "First love stronger and inevitably more important than any following ones"

- "Non-blood-related not really family"

- Aqua acting like a spoiled princess in her route: they're supposed to be equals there, yet the protag is the only one working his ass off. The bad ends are pretty bad in this game overall, but it was particularly awful at the end of Aqua route. Is she even interested in the relationship?

- The implication that what Souichirou did was wrong - the naivete that radical solutions like that (killing a ton of people) are always bad and "there's always another way" - oh how sick I am of that line of thinking, you see this childish writing everywhere in Japanese media.

- The statement that it was Akira who tore Daigo and Akari apart - so Akira is to blame for just being there because Akari wanted someone's D and Daigo wasn't close enough?

- Youichi forgot about Aoi not because of Moon AIDS, but because "he couldn't live on otherwise" - now that's a hell of a convenient memory, haven't we seen this somewhere before? How about a ton of other titles with the same idiotic cliche?

- You can switch to Aries/Aoi immediately after everything that happened with Aqua? How can you live with yourself after that? :amane:

- Contrived ending to Aqua route, with Akira - the bad guys are the good guys now? Admit it writers, you simply couldn't think of any other way of making it a happy end plus giving Aqua the ability to marry which is apparently an indispensable thing in relationships (spoiler: it isn't, get rekt)

- No killing allowed. Typical of almost all Japanese works. Aqua pointing a gun at Akira and about to pull the trigger? Show me someone who felt any tension from that scene, and if that person is familiar with Japanese media I'll laugh at them. Then we just handle the scene with two dudes beating each other up a little as if that solves anything. Fucking classic.

- The loli trio constantly being obedient dogs when they can just take over the whole place when things get rough. They wouldn't even need to kill anyone for that.

- Going back to the first episode. Trying to grow sunflowers in a public park? Isn't that, like, illegal? Those sunflowers will just get in the way.

- The "grab her hand" bad end. Why is it either take the hand by force or not do anything? How about, you know, asking? But oh no, that'll get in the way of the plot.

- In 2050, the only nations to have ever stood on the surface of the moon are America and Japan? Take your Japanese pride somewhere else, will ya.

- The world is in turmoil because some astronaut guy died two years ago? Some idiot who got spectacularly turned down while the entire world was watching? Life goes on, plus he wasn't the first one to land on the moon anyway.

- I thought Daigo was a womanizer, but with Youichi kissing Asuka in the backstory for no apparent reason I don't even know anymore. Despite this, Daigo doesn't land even a single kiss on Aqua, clearly to avoid giving the player a feeling of NTR (yes, I know that NTR is originally about sex, this is the expanded meaning).

- The list goes on...

 

Bonus: lost in translation

The butler, I think is full name is Jouji? He calls himself Johny because Akari called him Jou-nii. It's a Japanese thing. Early in the game if you choose to go get the missile with Asuka, the seduction trick they use will involve calling Johny Jou-nii as you'll hear in the character voice, but the translation will simply say Jou.

Edited by Funnerific
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1 hour ago, Funnerific said:

I read everything up to and including Aqua route. Frankly I hate the writing in this game, I have a lot of issues with it, and my opinion of Daigo matches yours.

Here's everything I can think of (spoilers, of course)

  Reveal hidden contents

- Fuck Daigo, seriously. I won't even go into detail here since you've said it all.

- "First love stronger and inevitably more important than any following ones"

- "Non-blood-related not really family"

- Aqua acting like a spoiled princess in her route: they're supposed to be equals there, yet the protag is the only one working his ass off. The bad ends are pretty bad in this game overall, but it was particularly awful at the end of Aqua route. Is she even interested in the relationship?

- The implication that what Souichirou did was wrong - the naivete that radical solutions like that (killing a ton of people) are always bad and "there's always another way" - oh how sick I am of that line of thinking, you see this childish writing everywhere in Japanese media.

- The statement that it was Akira who tore Daigo and Akari apart - so Akira is to blame for just being there because Akari wanted someone's D and Daigo wasn't close enough?

- Youichi forgot about Aoi not because of Moon AIDS, but because "he couldn't live on otherwise" - now that's a hell of a convenient memory, haven't we seen this somewhere before? How about a ton of other titles with the same idiotic cliche?

- You can switch to Aries/Aoi immediately after everything that happened with Aqua? How can you live with yourself after that? :amane:

- Contrived ending to Aqua route, with Akira - the bad guys are the good guys now? Admit it writers, you simply couldn't think of any other way of making it a happy end plus giving Aqua the ability to marry which is apparently an indispensable thing in relationships (spoiler: it isn't, get rekt)

- No killing allowed. Typical of almost all Japanese works. Aqua pointing a gun at Akira and about to pull the trigger? Show me someone who felt any tension from that scene, and if that person is familiar with Japanese media I'll laugh at them. Then we just handle the scene with two dudes beating each other up a little as if that solves anything. Fucking classic.

- The loli trio constantly being obedient dogs when they can just take over the whole place when things get rough. They wouldn't even need to kill anyone for that.

- Going back to the first episode. Trying to grow sunflowers in a public park? Isn't that, like, illegal? Those sunflowers will just get in the way.

- The "grab her hand" bad end. Why is it either take the hand by force or not do anything? How about, you know, asking? But oh no, that'll get in the way of the plot.

- In 2050, the only nations to have ever stood on the surface of the moon are America and Japan? Take your Japanese pride somewhere else, will ya.

- The world is in turmoil because some astronaut guy died two years ago? Some idiot who got spectacularly turned down while the entire world was watching? Life goes on, plus he wasn't the first one to land on the moon anyway.

- I thought Daigo was a womanizer, but with Youichi kissing Asuka in the backstory for no apparent reason I don't even know anymore. Despite this, Daigo doesn't land even a single kiss on Aqua, clearly to avoid giving the player a feeling of NTR (yes, I know that NTR is originally about sex, this is the expanded meaning).

- The list goes on...

 

Bonus: lost in translation

The butler, I think is full name is Jouji? He calls himself Johny because Akari called him Jou-nii. It's a Japanese thing. Early in the game if you choose to go get the missile with Asuka, the seduction trick they use will involve calling Johny Jou-nii as you'll hear in the character voice, but the translation will simply say Jou.

I love reading posts like that. I really hope that one day I will be able to put my thoughts in such a cohesive and non 'raging' way. :P

Since you're about to start Asuka route - I will say that worst is behind you. Asuka route is fairly 'enjoyable' typical for charage route. Something that could easily take place in Hoshizora no Memoria, or something similiar. It's not good - but it's not insulting to their audience and to their own (pretty decent) plot ideas.

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6 hours ago, Vorathiel said:

I love reading posts like that. I really hope that one day I will be able to put my thoughts in such a cohesive and non 'raging' way. :P

Since you're about to start Asuka route - I will say that worst is behind you. Asuka route is fairly 'enjoyable' typical for charage route. Something that could easily take place in Hoshizora no Memoria, or something similiar. It's not good - but it's not insulting to their audience and to their own (pretty decent) plot ideas.

Nope, I dropped it actually. I realized nothing would save this game for me.

5 hours ago, WinterfuryZX said:

 

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No killing allowed. Typical of almost all Japanese works

Oh come on... This must be murican, then:

 

 

 

Do I need to spell everything out?

Spoiler

Killing not allowed in the sense that it automatically makes you a villain or at least a bad guy and they, the Japanese, don't believe in justifiable homicide like defending yourself. Plus it's "almost all", not "all".

 

4 hours ago, novurdim said:

That's quite a nice nitpicking festival you are having, I'm almost tempted to bring fireworks. 

Easy to shrug off all the criticism with that line isn't it? How about you try to refute something and prove that Himawari isn't trash?

Edited by Funnerific
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14 hours ago, Funnerific said:

Easy to shrug off all the criticism with that line isn't it? How about you try to refute something and prove that Himawari isn't trash?

Yeaaaaaah, because spending an hour refuting void lecture about morals, menolikes and unfunny jokes is apparently exactly what I enjoy doing while driving to work. But it's not like I don't approve of your approach, I just wanted to bring fireworks to complete the picture. 

Edited by novurdim
typos =(
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8 hours ago, Funnerific said:

Do I need to spell everything out?

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Killing not allowed in the sense that it automatically makes you a villain or at least a bad guy and they, the Japanese, don't believe in justifiable homicide like defending yourself. Plus it's "almost all", not "all".

There is no such thing as "justificable homicide", where did even such a thing crossed your mind? Killing other humans is never an answer, nor a solution to problems. Even self defense doesn't make it any more justified. It just so happens, because we're weak-minded and find violence often to be the fastest solution at hand, hence our history is driven through endless wars and conflicts over the pettiest of arguments; we're mostly unable to strive to find solutions through peaceful cooperation because - in fact - we typically differ too much, and so do our beliefs and ideals. I'm not even going to start a lecture, because it's preety much pointless over here.

There's a difference between actual criticism and nitpicking at something to forcefully prove it's bad, even though it isn't. Granted - Himawari might not be to everyone's tastes; Gareji told so, Conjureror tweeted about that as well. You clearly were unable to enjoy it, because your expectations differ too much from what Himawari truly is, but calling that story "trash" is way too far-fetched. Most of your "criticism" points at preety insignificant and subjective matters. You may Dislike Daigo as much as you can, but it doesn't change the fact he's still a brilliant character, that makes majority of Himawari for what it is. You expected something else - a bastard or a stoic antihero? Guess what, he's been made exactly the way to trigger people like you, because GO is a douche when it comes to that :Teeku: It's the same with Aqua After, where a lot of original fans dropped it after getting triggered, due to the fact, how he treats their beloved characters.

Spoiler

Aqua breaking up with Youchi to give them space, so he can continue to pursue his dream. Killing their unborn daughter in the end and giving up on saving the Earth in favor to bring Cosmos hapiness and become her "family". Man, who would have predicted such a turn of events! :makina:

I'm not saying Himawari is perfect, because it isn't. It's still a masterpiece, though and it's far better than most of other high grade works, like Subahibi, which turn out to be nothing more than pretentious shit in the end.

Everything else is a matter of taste. Some things are bad, but we might still like em'. Other's are good but we still might dislike them and it's perfectly fine. Just don't try to criticise something without being purely objective, otherwise it's not criticism at all.

Edited by Narcosis
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I have read about half way through Aqua's route so far I think
 

Spoiler

On the space-plane to Earth with Daigo after Aqua got kidnapped

and I don't know if I really wanna continue. I'm not really enjoying it sadly. I got through Aries's route hoping I'll find Aqua's more interesting but I don't. i don't like most of the characters, and I really dislike Daigo. People say this route is the highlight of the VN and Asuka's route is a bit of a drop after Aqua's so I don't know if I should continue it. :mellow:

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27 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

There is no such thing as "justificable homicide", where did even such a thing crossed your mind? Killing other humans is never an answer, nor a solution to problems. Even self defense doesn't make it any more justified. It just so happens, because we're weak-minded and find violence often to be the fastest solution at hand, hence our history is driven through endless wars and conflicts over the pettiest of arguments; we're mostly unable to strive to find solutions through peaceful cooperation because - in fact - we typically differ too much, and so do our beliefs and ideals. I'm not even going to start a lecture, because it's preety much pointless over here.

There's a difference between actual criticism and nitpicking at something to forcefully prove it's bad, even though it isn't. Granted - Himawari might not be to everyone's tastes; Gareji told so, Conjureror tweeted about that as well. You clearly were unable to enjoy it, because your expectations differ too much from what Himawari truly is, but calling that story "trash" is way too far-fetched. Most of your "criticism" points at preety insignificant and subjective matters.

I admit that I went overboard in calling it trash.

In fact I didn't go in with any expectations, just dealing with things as I run into them. I insist on calling it actual criticism because my original point was that the writing is bad "and here's why". How ironic that you voted for "writing" in that thread I made a few months ago and now defend a game that relies entirely on plot twists and characters.

As for justifiable homicide - say you have a gun, your opponent has a gun, there's nowhere to run and he's about to shoot you. Shooting him would be considered justifiable homicide. Unless you, you know, don't mind dying and stuff.

Edited by Funnerific
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Just now, Funnerific said:

I admit that I went overboard in calling it trash.

In fact I didn't go in with any expectations, just dealing with things as I run into them.

As for justifiable homicide - say you have a gun, your opponent has a gun, there's nowhere to run and he's about to shoot you. Shooting him would be considered justifiable homicide. Unless you, you know, don't mind dying and stuff.

It's called self defense, not justificable homicide. There is no moral side to killing, it's always bad regardless of reasons or implications.

Spoiler

Souichiro condemned 517 people to death, while most of them were his colleagues and his very own family, ultimately killing himself in the process. It doesn't really matter he tried to save the planet; people still died because of his choice and there was no guarantee this sort of sacrifice will even save the future generations from the Lunar Virus. He didn't knew, he couldn't. Aqua After deals with this decision's implications to an extent through Cosmos.

 

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12 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

It's called self defense, not justificable homicide. There is no moral side to killing, it's always bad regardless of reasons or implications.

  Reveal hidden contents

Souichiro condemned 517 people to death, while most of them were his colleagues and his very own family, ultimately killing himself in the process. It doesn't really matter he tried to save the planet; people still died because of his choice and there was no guarantee this sort of sacrifice will even save the future generations from the Lunar Virus. He didn't knew, he couldn't. Aqua After deals with this decision's implications to an extent through Cosmos.

 

Okay, if you want to play it that way. Say you have a gun, your opponent has a gun, there's someone precious to you by your side (family/lover etc.) and the guy with the gun is about to shoot that person. If you shoot him, that's justifiable homicide. There is a moral side, you just need the courage to face it.

Edited by Funnerific
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Whether something is ‘justifiable to you' depends on your prejudices, biases, and worldview. Because of this, the term ‘justifiable homicide’ is incredible vague as it describes a different ‘standard’ depending on the person. To Narcosis nothing may justify homicide, to Funnerific homicide is justified if engaging in self-defence. Arguing that there is a single objective standard to justify homicide is pointless, you’ll just engage in roundabout arguments all day.

Unless you’re talking about the legal definition, then that’s a relatively simple answer.

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11 hours ago, novurdim said:

Yeaaaaaah, because spending am hour refuting void lecture about morales, menolikes and unfunny jokes is apparently exactly what I enjoy doing while driving to work. But it's not like I don't approve of your approach, I just wanted to bring fireworks to complete the picture. 

Lol, an hour to type a comment? Sounds like a whole different issue. But I shouldn't resort to ad-hom, that's clearly your territory. Your claim that the dude in question is nitpicking is just that - a claim, and your refusal to use argumentation and to instead post sly jabs doesn't paint you in a very enviable light, or a mature one. 

5 hours ago, Narcosis said:

 Killing other humans is never an answer, nor a solution to problems. 

Nobody claimed that. Leave your strawmen at home. 

5 hours ago, Narcosis said:

Even self defense doesn't make it any more justified.

Are you kidding me? Your values are not the objective standard, in fact there are none. But this? This is extreme.

You cannot call the police to deal with every situation you find yourself in. And if you really think if you defend yourself in a situation you're thrust into lightning fast and in the struggle your aggressor dies that your actions were unjustified and guilty, then I have to say that I find your values nonsensical. It's even more mindnumbing that you think to act shocked that anyone would have a different opinion with you on a matter that you are clearly extreme on. 

And why you're going on about wars and stuff I've no idea, that's not even close to being relevant and it's clear you're trying to paint your rhetoric to be more important than it actually is. Impressive nerve, though. 

Edited by Sovapex
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11 minutes ago, Sovapex said:

Your values are not the objective standard

Yes, because obviously the values of the nitpicking guy's are. Which pretty much what all of his "critique" is, "muh values are better, GO is stupid", almost none of it has anything to do with writing like he claims so it's plain silly to even seriously argue with him. But it's always nice to know there are decent enough guys to defend him, you've done well.

Edited by novurdim
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2 minutes ago, novurdim said:

Yes, because obviously the values of the nitpicking guy's are. Which pretty all of his "critique" is, "muh values are better, GO is stupid", almost none of it has anything to do with writing like he claims so it's plain stupid to even seriously argue with him. But it's always nice to know there are decent enough guys to defend him, you've done well.

Values? Out of 16 items on the list I count at least 8 that have nothing to do with values or common sense which you don't seem to like, pointing out plot holes directly. Want to say something about those? About anything, actually? So far it's pretty clear you have no taste or appreciation for writing, prove me wrong.

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6 minutes ago, Funnerific said:

Values? Out of 16 items on the list I count at least 8 that have nothing to do with values or common sense which you don't seem to like, pointing out plot holes directly. Want to say something about those? About anything, actually? So far it's pretty clear you have no taste or appreciation for writing, prove me wrong.

I have nothing to prove, really, plus you just pointed out yourself how at the very least half (and actually almost every single one) of your critique is subjective gibberish. There are no plotholes in your post, at best you are complaining about several cliches and exaggerations which of course makes you a big expert on writing. Himawari is no masterpiece but your post is just too much to seriously look at.

Edited by novurdim
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