Donald Trump Megathread

[Valmore]

There's also that sense in the South and other places that they really dislike being looked down upon by those in other areas, also known as elitism. Maybe it's real, imagined or unintentional, but those that have higher educations from the North and West Coast are seen as elitist and trying to tell how everyone else should be "because they're right and we're wrong." It was a big problem Al Gore had in 2000, whether it was there or not, and it's something that's prevalent today. Basically, the perception of a know-it-all asshole telling you what to do can really hurt a candidate. Clinton has always struggled to really resonate with that sort of voter - let's face it it, it's hard to argue about "white privilege" when you're a walking example of it. (Yes, Trump is also a walking example, but it's not an unspoken part of his platform.) Whether Hillary did something criminal or not, the view is that her being rich and powerful let her get away with things others can't. Her daughter they tout about? Private school educated, hedge fund manager, hasn't done a real day of work in her entire life. That's great for her, but it's textbook elitism. Yes, Trump's kids are the same. But because Trump didn't come off as elitist (and his kids are much less well known, aside from Ivanka) and Clinton did, his kids didn't really hurt him, but I really don't think Chelsea helped Hillary at all and may have hurt.

A lot of the gun control boils down to the fact that we have a mess of gun laws that aren't enforced very well anyway, and adding more really doesn't help. We really need some sort of clean up on gun control. The one snag is that there's a group that doesn't want to ban assault-style weapons. The other main issue, really, is we need better mental health care attention in America. The mass shootings you see pop up every so often are usually (not always) the result of some white kid not right in the head seeking revenge or attention or both.

Which brings up another point that sounds laughable but is actually a large factor. In the race to be inclusive, the straight white male is being shut out and shouted down. Equality for all is a wonderful goal that needs to be reached, but you can't do it by exclusively shouting down one group, just because they have the "misfortune" of being born like the previous ruling class. If you keep saying to them, "You voted against Obama because you're racist," or "You voted against Hillary because you're sexist," and on and on, you're only inviting them to keep doing the same. That's not to say there aren't sexist, racist votes (there are), but to counter that there's another ugly truth - there are people who only voted for Obama because he's black, for Hillary because she's female. Obviously not everyone who voted for those two are like that, but you can't get away with saying that. Tell someone they only voted for Obama because he's black and you're going to get nailed by tons of people. Tell someone they only voted for Trump because he's white or male? Crickets, or agreement. Does that sound acceptable? If it does, you're part of the reason why Trump won. The country is becoming more inclusive, but the straight white male isn't going anywhere and if you want them to see things your way, you have to be as inclusive to them as well and listen to them and what they have to say.

We're a pretty darn good country, and we still will be. But we have some issues that need to be ironed out.

[Soulless Watcher]

44 minutes ago, Valmore said:

 But because Trump didn't come off as elitist and Clinton did....

So, because he talks like a grade schooler he doesn't sound like part of the upper class? I genuinely don't know what else about him doesn't ooze elitism.

44 minutes ago, Valmore said:

The country is becoming more inclusive, but the straight white male isn't going anywhere and if you want them to see things your way, you have to be as inclusive to them as well and listen to them and what they have to say.

Yeah, I mean it is like only 70% of congress that is comprised of white men. Although god knows how many of them are closeted gays.  We got to be careful that we don't alienate them when making important decisions regarding the country. 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Soulless Watcher

[Valmore]

32 minutes ago, Soulless Watcher said:

So, because he talks like a grade schooler he doesn't sound like part of the upper class? I genuinely don't know what else about him doesn't ooze elitism.

Yeah, I mean it is like only 70% of congress that is comprised of white men. Although god knows how many of them are closeted gays.  We got to be careful that we don't alienate them when making important decisions regarding the country. 

Hey, I said the guy is clearly an elite, but he managed to present himself as something else (even if it is a con, which it is).

This is the attitude that got you Trump in the first place. Did you not notice some of the Heartland that went for Obama went for Trump, like Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania? Think white dudes may have made a difference there? Inclusion means everyone, and while the candidates themselves may not foster an image or directly be non-inclusive, their followers have certainly been more than willing to shout down those white guys. Thing is, they're people just like everyone else. And not all white guys have it so easy, and they're not all Congressmen and Wall Street Bankers. But if a particular party's members and followers keep acting like they're all just privileged white guys that can be ignored, don't be surprised when you get a result like this.

[Kenshin_sama]

32 minutes ago, Soulless Watcher said:

So, because he talks like a grade schooler he doesn't sound like part of the upper class? I genuinely don't know what else about him doesn't ooze elitism.

It really depends on your perception. To many, he doesn't come off as elitist because his message resonates with what people are thinking, and he seems authentic when he talks.

[Soulless Watcher]

27 minutes ago, Valmore said:

This is the attitude that got you Trump in the first place. Did you not notice some of the Heartland that went for Obama went for Trump, like Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania? Think white dudes may have made a difference there? Inclusion means everyone, and while the candidates themselves may not foster an image or directly be non-inclusive, their followers have certainly been more than willing to shout down those white guys. Thing is, they're people just like everyone else. And not all white guys have it so easy, and they're not all Congressmen and Wall Street Bankers. But if a particular party's members and followers keep acting like they're all just privileged white guys that can be ignored, don't be surprised when you get a result like this.

Ok, I may be misunderstanding something or I have simply not stumbled across the right news or comment sections. I have not personally observed anything that indicates that there is a mass movement to suppress the "white man's" voice, I fully admit that I may just not be aware of it since I don't get out of the house much. It's just usually when I hear about white dudes complaining about their rights being violated or being "shamed" for their race it's because of something like a cakeshop being forced to serve a gay couple, or African american students being bussed into a white school, or because the movie 12 Years a Slave exists.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Soulless Watcher

[Kenshin_sama]

15 minutes ago, Soulless Watcher said:

Ok, I may be misunderstanding something or I have simply not stumbled across the right news or comment sections. I have not personally observed anything that indicates that there is a mass movement to suppress the "white mans" voice, I fully admit that I may just not be aware of it since I don't get out of the house much. It's just usually when I see white dude complaining about their rights being violated or being "shamed" for their race it's because of something like a cakeshop being forced to serve a gay couple, or African american students being bussed into a white school, or because the movie 12 Years a Slave exists.

And see, this is where I think people should stop fighting with each other and unite under a better cause. It doesn't help at all that white people are fighting with minorities and homosexuals, and vice versa. What Americans need to realize is that everybody has it rough because of the oligarchs stealing our government and creating an economy that only works for them. Trump is far from the solution though; what we need to do is fight corruption at its core using the ballot initiate. And believe it or not, we're doing a really good job of that (I've posted this link before, but I thought I'd bring it up again for relevancy).                    

[Soulless Watcher]

@Kenshin_sama Huh, I didn't hear about this. That article is actually really encouraging.

[Darklord Rooke]

1 hour ago, Soulless Watcher said:

Ok, I may be misunderstanding something or I have simply not stumbled across the right news or comment sections. I have not personally observed anything that indicates that there is a mass movement to suppress the "white man's" voice, I fully admit that I may just not be aware of it since I don't get out of the house much. It's just usually when I hear about white dudes complaining about their rights being violated or being "shamed" for their race it's because of something like a cakeshop being forced to serve a gay couple, or African american students being bussed into a white school, or because the movie 12 Years a Slave exists.

Going by new thinking, all white people are racist and all men are sexist. If you haven't seen this new form of thinking, then yeah you don't get out of the house much. Has to do with oppression and privilege. White people are seen as the problem, men are seen as the problem, straight people are seen as the problem, the system that privileges all these people are seen as the problem, and yes people banding together to find solutions tend to exclude these groups because who needs the opinions of a bunch of racist and sexist people, yes? Especially when they're seen as part of the problem. And who needs to cater to a bunch of racists, sexists, and priviliged people? The only time when this isn't true is when the straight white men agree with everything the oppressed minorities say. Disagree and you're opinion is dismissed. Why? See above.

It's a very real thing that white people are getting sick of getting accused of being racist, sexist, ablist and whatever other derogatory term people can pick out of a bag. They're getting sick of having their problems trivialised because they're the oppressors, which must automatically mean that every white person has it easy because "oppressors". The people using this new language cherry pick a very select meaning of 'racism' to prevent the same accusation being thrown back into their face. You hear it when people say 'reverse racism doesn't exist'. That's actually both true and false. Reverse racism doesn't exist from a sociological standpoint, because sociologists only concern themselves with societies and not individuals, but it exists when you use the normal definition. That is, sociologists narrow the definition to only what they find useful. People will flat out deny the idea that reverse racism exists because it's PC to side with the oppressed, but it's flawed logic in any case that's being used to push an agenda. It's a good agenda, equality is always desired, and "the end justifies the means" is definitely a thing, but the alienation of white people in new equal future is very real.

What does this mean? Well partly the following. Let me give you an example using the Trump election. Consider the arguments that are normally used. Straight white men are routinely called racist and sexist, so when ALL MEN are automatically sexist and ALL WHITE PEOPLE are automatically racist, what difference does it make if they vote Trump? "Vote Trump and you're sexist" -> "I'm sexist anyway, how does it make a difference?" "Vote Trump and you're racist" -> "I'm racist anyway, what difference does it make?" When you normalise these words, you strip them of power. So now that all men are automatically sexist, they're free to vote for Trump. Now that all white people are automatically racist, they're free to vote for Trump. See where I'm headed? xD

Now, what you think about this depends very much on your perspective. It is a very real thing that white people, straight people, and men (AS A GROUP) face many more advantages then minority groups, and breaking down that privilege may very well mean taking strong action. BUT, when we're talking about voting, and the people you're fighting against is the majority, and the people you're fighting against still command a decent number of votes, then alienating this section of the community could very well see the sort of backlash that encourages people to vote Trump. 

 

[Soulless Watcher]

You know what, I just realized what it is. I live in bumfuck Kansas where everyone is white anyways, so I don't see many groups of minorities interacting with white men. 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Soulless Watcher

[Darklord Rooke]

4 minutes ago, Soulless Watcher said:

You know what, I just realized what it is. I live in bumfuck Kansas where everyone is white anyways, so I don't see many groups of minorities interacting with white men. 

Let me show you what you're missing:

Quote

As you reap comfort from being white, we suffer for being black and people of color. But your comfort is linked to our pain and suffering. Just as my comfort in being male is linked to the suffering of women, which makes me sexist, so, too, you are racist. That is the gift that I want you to accept, to embrace. It is a form of knowledge that is taboo. Imagine the impact that the acceptance of this gift might have on you and the world.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/dear-white-america/?_r=1 

[Soulless Watcher]

Alrighty I think I can understand a bit more why a large portion of the white male demographic voted as they did, God am I depressed now.

[WinterfuryZX]

10 hours ago, solidbatman said:

A fear of many people against universal healthcare, is the government telling them what they can and cant have treated, where they can and can't go, and eventually, what some have labeled, "death panels" where the terminally ill, mentally ill, or elderly are denied healthcare to save costs.

No wait, that doesn't mean private healthcare will be abolished, for exhample here (and everywhere else in europe) it's partially private.

[Jun Inoue]

3 hours ago, Darklord Rooke said:

Let me show you what you're missing:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/dear-white-america/?_r=1 

It's an issue of responsibility that most people don't accept or even acknowledge. We are not people per se, but a combination of facts and characteristics. The fact that we are white men brings certain things to our table, and that's when people say "but I haven't personally done anything wrong, I'm not racist!" Yes, you are not at fault, buy you do have an inherent responsibility for being white. You were born with certain advantages, which are linked to the disadvantages of people of other colour. And so on with women, and minorities.

A pretty good representation of this that I once heard was: People flip about the amount of care and work done for minorities, women, people of race, etc, claiming that it's so unfair we all have to go so far when most haven't done jack shit against any of them. The problem with that mentality, though, is that you are complaining about the other team scoring a few goals in a match of football, but on the first half your team had been leading 120 - 0.

[Darklord Rooke]

Eh, you can do that all day.

Simply be being born in the United States, you have certain advantages (even as a person of colour) that people in other less fortunate parts of the world don’t have. The disadvantages people in the third world face are linked to the comparative wealth and advantages you enjoy (even as a person of colour) in America. Yet this isn’t shoved in their face all day, every day, Hyundai. Well, except by Charity advertisements.

The world is a competitive place, everybody, every country, is in competition with everybody else. People climb to the top by trodding on everyone else. The people in the middle that call the people at the top oppressors are oppressing the people at the bottom. Only the people at the bottom (and they're not the people living in any First World country) can truly be called victims.

[solidbatman]

6 hours ago, WinterfuryZX said:

No wait, that doesn't mean private healthcare will be abolished, for exhample here (and everywhere else in europe) it's partially private.

The problem is, with the current set up, most states only have two providers, the government, or a single private company. The current law does not allow you to shop for healthcare with anyone outside of your state. So if I find that Aetna prices are cheaper across the border in South Carolina, I wouldnt be able to use them and I'm stuck with Blue Cross Blue Shield here in NC. So the private companies have almost no incentive to lower costs, especially since the gov't keeps increasing their cost. 

[Valmore]

5 hours ago, Jun Inoue said:

It's an issue of responsibility that most people don't accept or even acknowledge. We are not people per se, but a combination of facts and characteristics. The fact that we are white men brings certain things to our table, and that's when people say "but I haven't personally done anything wrong, I'm not racist!" Yes, you are not at fault, buy you do have an inherent responsibility for being white. You were born with certain advantages, which are linked to the disadvantages of people of other colour. And so on with women, and minorities.

A pretty good representation of this that I once heard was: People flip about the amount of care and work done for minorities, women, people of race, etc, claiming that it's so unfair we all have to go so far when most haven't done jack shit against any of them. The problem with that mentality, though, is that you are complaining about the other team scoring a few goals in a match of football, but on the first half your team had been leading 120 - 0.

It depends who you're talking about. There are plenty of white guys who do understand the system and how it came about. The problem lies in the idea that we're automatically racist because we were born looking the same way as the ones who created the system, and it's something that gets levied at us every time something goes the way that is seen as white guy advantage. This election is a perfect example. If you really think every last vote for Trump was the result of sexism, or racism, and there are plenty of examples out there that show people think this way, there's a problem.

Not to mention, when you even bring it up as a problem, you get shouted down. Kind of counter-intuitive to a group that claims they like inclusion and wants to be the party of everyone. (Of course, politically speaking on a national scale it's all a load of bullshit, but I digress.) It also doesn't help when the narrative is incorrect. Take equal pay, for instance. The Democrats love to pull out the old "70-something cents on the dollar" line. It rallies the base, gets women angry at men. "You stupid men, you make more than us you sexist jerks." The problem is that old stat still comes from a pool of every job out there slammed together and spitting a result with nothing else in mind but men versus women. There have been studies that show when you account for factors in jobs that are the same (ie, not putting engineers in with school teachers, etc.). Pay between men and women are pretty equal under those circumstances. The factor? It comes in what jobs men and women choose to do, mainly being men go into higher-paying fields. So the solution isn't some "equal pay" legislation, it's get women interested into going into those other fields. But that doesn't make for a good bumper sticker, right?

Even in the waning moments of Clinton's campaign, she was more focused on "Love Trumps Hate" then anything else. The slogan itself basically tells anyone voting for Trump that you're a "hater." That's not going to endear you to anyone but those who are "already with you."

[ExtraMana]

Wew. Looking at all Hilary defense force posts in the beginning of this thread. I'm just glad America won't be going to War with Russia.

[bigfatround0]

 That all white people are racist narrative isn't a big enough problem like you guys are making it out to be. It's mostly on the internet with pockets of it here and there irl. I talked to a bunch of people that I know in my city and the biggest reasons they gave for voting for Trump was because Hillary is bought, they support the wall, guns, and religious beliefs. Mostly the same old reasons they lean to the right.

[WinterfuryZX]

3 hours ago, solidbatman said:

The problem is, with the current set up, most states only have two providers, the government, or a single private company. The current law does not allow you to shop for healthcare with anyone outside of your state. So if I find that Aetna prices are cheaper across the border in South Carolina, I wouldnt be able to use them and I'm stuck with Blue Cross Blue Shield here in NC. So the private companies have almost no incentive to lower costs, especially since the gov't keeps increasing their cost. 

Your system is simply too much different from what I'm used to, I feel you have to live there to fully understand it.

Edited November 13, 2016 by WinterfuryZX
typo

[proxygames]

1 hour ago, bigfatround0 said:

 That all white people are racist narrative isn't a big enough problem like you guys are making it out to be. It's mostly on the internet with pockets of it here and there irl. I talked to a bunch of people that I know in my city and the biggest reasons they gave for voting for Trump was because Hillary is bought, they support the wall, guns, and religious beliefs. Mostly the same old reasons they lean to the right.

Frankly I don't think religion should be a basis on how you make decisions. And as for the white people are racist part, when you openly support a wall it's not wonder why people think that. As for guns, I'm often wondering how much it will take for people to start thinking about why maybe stricter laws are needed. The killing of common workers, kids, and LGBTQ doesn't seem to sway anybody so nothing likely will. 

 

Honestly I never thought America was a great country. If a Government allowed slavery and even after that allowed there to be laws against a single race, I have little hope things will get better. I don't condone people calling all whites racist because that's just stupid and wrong, and I know just cause someone voted for Trump doesn't mean they are sexist or racist. Problem is though this country for many is seen as place where they can be who they want to be. However when you have a president who, for example, wants to get rid of the protection rights for the LGBTQ people and build a giant wall, it's not wonder why people are upset with us. (And note, I don't like Hilary either.)

 

I suppose my main problem with people who vote for him is, your seemingly okay with allowing an entire group to be discriminated against and maybe even killed because of your religion. People here are ignorant to things and often only think of themselves and not others, which is depressing. But like I said, I don't find this country a very good place and until people learn to be more compassionate, I don't see things changing much. 

Edited November 13, 2016 by proxygames

[Tyr]

10 hours ago, Jun Inoue said:

It's an issue of responsibility that most people don't accept or even acknowledge. We are not people per se, but a combination of facts and characteristics. The fact that we are white men brings certain things to our table, and that's when people say "but I haven't personally done anything wrong, I'm not racist!" Yes, you are not at fault, buy you do have an inherent responsibility for being white. You were born with certain advantages, which are linked to the disadvantages of people of other colour. And so on with women, and minorities.

This is the most racist thing that was posted in this thread so far.
Even the ugliest fanfictions about how the trump presidency will turn out are not as racist, toxic and dangerous as your political and social ideologies. The difference being that you seem to be actual serious about this.

[Kuma]

Serious, now we're at "White Privilege" niveau?

Anyone wants to glas some juice? And While we're at it: no more chocolate for murica, looking at you, man moving into the big white house, those cotton clothes don't fit anymore. /satire /cynism /sarcasm /notreallyserioushere

 

That's another problem with 'modern entitlement', The Others are always at fault. Whenever something happens the finger always point the other way. "While it may not your fault, it is your fault for existing in this situation" or stuff like that might be worse than racism. Blaming people just for existing is pretty low. Racism can be explained with fearing the 'different', but finding fault in people just living as white or black or queer or straight or something else is the worst.

[ExtraMana]

2 hours ago, bigfatround0 said:

 That all white people are racist narrative isn't a big enough problem like you guys are making it out to be. It's mostly on the internet with pockets of it here and there irl. I talked to a bunch of people that I know in my city and the biggest reasons they gave for voting for Trump was because Hillary is bought, they support the wall, guns, and religious beliefs. Mostly the same old reasons they lean to the right.

My white straight university professors use this line and I can tell you the students are tired of it. 

[bigfatround0]

21 minutes ago, ExtraMana said:

My white straight university professors use this line and I can tell you the students are tired of it. 

Like I said, there are some people that believe it but they're a small enough number that they don't make much of a difference.

Are you even American? If that's your youtube channel then you're clearly not from the US. In that case your comment isn't really relevant here.

Edited November 13, 2016 by bigfatround0

[Jun Inoue]

1 hour ago, Tyrosyn said:

This is the most racist thing that was posted in this thread so far.
Even the ugliest fanfictions about how the trump presidency will turn out are not as racist, toxic and dangerous as your political and social ideologies. The difference being that you seem to be actual serious about this.

You seem to confuse analysis for opinion, and to not know what racism means. If you seriously think that people don't have different advantages and disadvantages in life depending on ethnic, place of birth, family, cultural background, and a long list of etc, then you are the one whose mentality is quite scary. That level of denial is nothing short of plain ridiculous. I'd laugh at your comment if it wasn't that there's so, so many people who think like you, and seriously belief there's no such thing as inherent advantages or a sense of responsibility.

It's quite funny that talking about conscious responsibility and accept that we most certainly do not live in a utopia and who we are is based in more than what we say and do makes you think this is "toxic and dangerous." I'd say "I'm guessing," but your denial kinda points me at thinking that you seriously belief that there's no such thing as differences in opportunities between ethnics, genre, etc. You deny a difference in opportunities depending on someone's background and birth, and call me a racist for it. This is honestly the dumbest thing anyone's said in this threat. By, far.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Jun Inoue