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What's the general opinion on English made/OEL VN's?

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50 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

Still, apart from Katawa Shoujo there is no gaijin visual novel that I can call great. There are some good things like Everlasting Summer and OTL, some passable examples like Juniper's Knot, Sepia Tears and Sunrider but generally speaking all OELVNs are just poor attempts to copy Japan games, their style, tropes and even characters. It's absurd, but the most English VN I've read is The Fata Morgana which is... japanese kamige.

I don't understand why everyone so afraid to tell their own stories. You have VN's frameworks, people, that allow you to create any game you like. Just choose the theme different from the 'high school romance'. And for God's Sake, make a long decent story. Why English VN's writers are so terrified of words? It's visual novel, not Shakespeare. Do it more. Two hours OELVN standard is a damn joke.

And please, dear Western VN's creators, don't use English VA for your games. They're already bad enough, don't make them repulsive. Spend the money on the actual plot and testing.

That's all I have to say.

Obviously someone who has not tried many EVNs. Trust me, there are some really really good ones out there that do their own thing. You just aren't looking, and the community shits on them because they arent weeb enough 

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My consensus is that ELVNs should just try to do their own thang and not try to be on par with / compare to JVNs

Kinda like how we got WRPGs vs JRPGs

Comics vs Manga

Cartoons vs Anime

And any other stretchy definition'o regional medio comparison'os


~~
I'm pro JP weeberz who only reads and is interested in VNs cuz of JPness, though I'm not gonna shat on EVNs, more i just don't care about them.

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My opinion is closely aligned to Funyarinpa in his earlier message. I don't know if anyone else has spoken from the opinion of an OELVN dev yet, so i'll act as if i am the first. 

Naturally, i fall into the category of those who had their VN virginity brutally torn by Katawa Shoujo, but even then, after reading subsequent Japanese novels like G-senjou no maou, i never actually compared the two. Why? Because they were both great. This may sound like i'm trying to defend OELVNs but it's the undisputed truth. It doesn't matter how, why, what or who made a VN. A good story is a good story no matter what it's 'ripping off'.

Some who've read this far might still disagree with my notion. Then let me explain a little further basing my opinion on facts and ideas. 

There are two popular VN forums sites for western otakus. There's our very own Fuwanovel and there's Lemmasoft. Fuwanovel strikes me as a Vn site that is mostly focused on Pure Japanese Vns as opposed to lemmasoft which tries to promote OELVNs. this is true because this forum has a sub-forum for OELVNs that sees even less action that most virgin NEETs. Neither of the sites are better than the other and neither of them are worse. But after browsing these two for a while, I've come to learn quite a few things about the differences between OELVNs and Jappy VNs.

1. Literature. OELVNs use a different style of literature as opposed to Jap Vns. To be precise, they are more focused on prose and the utilization of text heavy lines and powerfully fluid description. So it's almost like reading a paperback novel on screen with art. I myself dislike writing with prose, as i prefer utilizing Japanese literature and plot devices. An example would be the very well known Boke and tsukkomi routine (think Comyu). Most OELVNs are focused on delivering the story with excellent wording at the cost of visuals.

2. Art. Art is the main branching point and the OELVN's greatest weakness. i'll be blunt. Sometimes i see some projects on Lemmasoft and be awe-struck by the art used to depict characters... and not in a good way. It seems like OELVN devs are satisfied with utilizing low to medium-low quality for their projects to cut costs, as they are not companies who can shelve the heavy costs that comes with great art. Most of the freebies have low quality art, while the Commercial ones have medium low art. Like Funyarinpa stated, this community gathered because of Japanese art, music and style, so OELVNs with such art would have little to no impact on those used to the excellent qualities Jap Vns deliver. I'm an OELVN dev, yet I've never bothered to read a single OELVN except KS. (the ones I've edited and proofread don't count). This is because, before i am a writer, i am an Otaku. that means i love Japanese stuff. that means i want  Japanese stuff. But attempting to produce something on the level of the Japanese is apparently being termed as a 'ripoff'. It makes you wonder what exactly the consumers want. Do they want westernized art? No. Do they want Japanese art? Yes, but not from you. A difficult situation indeed.

3. Communication. Another bane of OELVN creation. From what I've read/heard most Japanese devs are mostly located in a single room/complex/building during most of the VN's creation. Most OELVN devs do most of their communication over the internet. Something like this doesn't sound like a pressing problem from the perspective of a non-dev, but trust me, communication is what has lead to the crumbling and breakdown of most OELVNs. For example, an artist is working on a CG. Now CGs unlike sprites or Character designs, have to be done right from the get-go otherwise you're going to lose a lot of time in correcting it. So they send WIPs and Lineart sketches. You'd have to pray and hope your description and their understanding matched well, otherwise you'd have to restart. Jap devs, however, just need to look over their shoulder and check out their comrade's WIP, or the artist may even explain a better idea for positioning and perspective as opposed to the writers description. Also some associates on the EVN sphere can remain offline for days or weeks and there's absolutely nothing you can do but wait patiently for their return. The internet is difficult like that.

4. Commitment. Apart from one or two exceptions, most associates in the EVN creation are not fully committed to what they're doing, especially in the case of Artists. It seen by the style of advertising on lemmasoft. "Pay half to my paypal, i'll send a sketch and you pay the other half". After that payment is done the association has ended. Whatever the art is used for is not their problem, since it has been compensated by a few bucks. I'm not saying artists should work for free, but rather take a controlling share in what they draw for. Unfortunately for EVN devs 95% of artists aren't interest in Sales commitment or as it's called, "Rev-share". Yes, i know that economical and financial security play a part etc but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a problem. Another point under this, is that EVN artists hardly actually read the story their drawing for. I mean they just read the summary and draw based on whatever you give them alone, instead of mixing it with the emotions, perceptions and ideas you derived from reading. It still works for business purposes, but it would never match up to Jap Vns with their enthusiastic and moving work.

Aside from these points, there are many other deep rooted and subtle difference that bar EVNs from making it big. I can't touch on everything since i don't have the energy for that, but i would spent a little more on talking about my 100% personal opinion. 

What the OP refers to as 'ripoffs' are those EVNs that utilize Japanese names for characters, Japanese locations and Japanese culture, while using western style literature, art etc and the writers themselves only have a second hand grasp of the Culture. 

Like Funyarinpa said, what the EVN community needs is that one (or two) project(s) that stands out from the rest with Art, Music and story that are original and compelling while delivering it in the style that Jap VN lovers want. Hopefully, with the increase of the EVN output, that one project may come sooner rather than later.

EVNs may not be the best examples of VNs, but like all things that are shot down by humanity, it's just a mentality... which i'm also criminal of. Being someone who understands this very intimately, i hope that whatever i throw out would be to the satisfaction of both sides of the market and wouldn't fall into the demeaning category of 'ripoff'.

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15 hours ago, yorikbad said:

Still, apart from Katawa Shoujo there is no gaijin visual novel that I can call great. There are some good things like Everlasting Summer and OTL, some passable examples like Juniper's Knot, Sepia Tears and Sunrider but generally speaking all OELVNs are just poor attempts to copy Japan games, their style, tropes and even characters. It's absurd, but the most English VN I've read is The Fata Morgana which is... japanese kamige.

I'm not surprised rarely anyone outside from more sophisticated and experienced readers recommends Christine Love's games and that's fine. Then, you have new games, like Along the Edge; a great evn I'm sure barely anyone even heard of, despite having a topic on this forum? It's kind of sad people complain so much about EVN's - especially the hardcore otaku crowds - yet, at the same time, they outright refuse to reach out and discover what's it currently made of. Everyone just keeps on bickering about how "mediocre and low budget they are, yada yada" etc. But forget, that almost all prominent japanese studios began as doujin circles, with usually even smaller budgets (if any at all) than the current evn's. It took the genre in overall more than two decades to "grow up" and turn from sex romps into story-driven adventures and that was only the beginning of it's evolution. I'm sure evn's will achieve similiar results, just give them time; it's hard to talk about development, when their sole playerbase feels so detached.

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8 hours ago, Narcosis said:

I'm not surprised rarely anyone outside from more sophisticated and experienced readers recommends Christine Love's games and that's fine

I did this in the thread "Another Day, Another Winged Cloud VN", you can check it out. It was my mistake to not include them in my post. Honestly, I always considered them something else aside from your average traditional visual novel. But I cherish Cristin Love's writing skills very much to buy "Ladykiller in a bind".

8 hours ago, Narcosis said:

Then, you have new games, like Along the Edge; a great evn I'm sure barely anyone even heard of, despite having a topic on this forum?

According to Steam the release date is 12 october 2016. Come on, it's too early to say. If it's really good the word will spread.

8 hours ago, Narcosis said:

Everyone just keeps on bickering about how "mediocre and low budget they are, yada yada" etc. But forget, that almost all prominent japanese studios began as doujin circles, with usually even smaller budgets (if any at all) than the current evn's. It took the genre in overall more than two decades to "grow up" and turn from sex romps into story-driven adventures and that was only the beginning of it's evolution. I'm sure evn's will achieve similiar results, just give them time; it's hard to talk about development, when their sole playerbase feels so detached

You're wrong. Japan VN's industry began from PC-88 erotic games. The visual novel genre came from the adult game industry, from such professional company like ELF. And still eroge is more relevant and commercially succesfull then any other big story title.

The first version of Ren'py came in 2004. OELVN's developers had enough time to make something great. But they've chosen easy money on Steam. I understand when someone is doing half-assed VN for fun, but pay for it? It's not a matter of choice to pick a medium japanese game or crappy short english one, it's a common sense. But I guess, Winged Cloud's fans could prove me wrong).

And I am completely agree with this:

12 hours ago, dfbreezy said:

what the EVN community needs is that one (or two) project(s) that stands out from the rest with Art, Music and story that are original and compelling while delivering it in the style that Jap VN lovers want

We need the new Katawa Shoujo but with high production value, that can become a meme and change how people see OELVNs today.

18 hours ago, solidbatman said:

Obviously someone who has not tried many EVNs. Trust me, there are some really really good ones out there that do their own thing. You just aren't looking, and the community shits on them because they arent weeb enough 

That is a prejudice on your part. I've read them enough to make a general opinion. I don't just compare western games to japanese VNs. I judge them like pieces of Art. They're mostly boring, not funny, very short and unpolished. Not because their authors are newcomers, but because they don't dedicate themself enough in development. And after they release their games they usually forget about community.

18 hours ago, Rooke said:

What makes Fata Morgana an ... English style VN?

The feeling I get from reading it. Like in Katawa Shoujo, despite the honorifics and japanese surroundings I never lose the feeling that I'm reading western visual novel. The way characters act, talk and fall in love is so different from typical eroge. The Fata Morgana is the game every amatuer should take as an example of great dedication. It has no decent backgrounds and voices, but it is capable to conquer our minds and hearts with its alive deep characters and engaging mature storytelling. And don't forget about beatifull OST. When the last time you heard something good from OELVN?

 

Though my words are harsh, I truly wish OELVN's creators all the luck in the world, but I think they are moving in the wrong direction. The Japanese VN's industry is dying, so without changes we'll definitely follow its fate.

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32 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

You're wrong. Japan VN's industry began from PC-88 erotic games. The visual novel genre came from the adult game industry, from such professional company like ELF. And still eroge is more relevant and commercially succesfull then any other big story title.

You sure are bad at maths. And how old is "that japanese adult game industry", you're talking about? 1982, perhaps? That's exactly when the first japanese eroge appeared on the market, mostly because computers became capable to display graphics good enough to make them somewhat enjoyable. And you're wrong about "visual novel" being coined by ELF; it was a derivative off Chunsoft's "Sound Novel". Because "Sound Novel" was trademarked by them (and as such, no one aside from Chunsoft could use that name commercially), Leaf coined their own term - "Visual Novel" - by adding character portraits and facial expressions to backgrounds. That's how the genre we know today was born.

Please refrain from posting misinformation.

32 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

The first version of Ren'py came in 2004. OELVN's developers had enough time to make something great. But they've chosen easy money on Steam. I understand when someone is doing half-assed VN for fun, but pay for it? It's not a matter of choice to pick a medium japanese game or crappy short english one, it's a common sense. But I guess, Winged Cloud's fans could prove me wrong).

Majority of so-called western vn developers do not have the slightest idea what vn's, or eroge are. They jump into the genre, because they like the general notion associated with visual novels: "adventure games, that tell stories through text, sound and pictures on screen"; they don't know, nor care about the japanese industry and rarely take time to actually inform themselves, least learn about the current market and it's trends. Obviously, this backfires on their games afterwards and causes a large portion of already experienced western playerbase to treat them with disrespect and indulgence at most.

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Jesus fucking Christ how much entitlement must you even have up your ass to sit back and claim an abstract collective of people you don't really know (in this case, VN developers who aren't Japanese) have had "enough time" to make something great and that there should be a "fantastic project with high production values" out of the blue and go like, "I'm waiting, you're not dedicating yourselves enough to satisfy me"*?

 

EDIT:

*when there are actually people living off VNs, like Ebihime, and who have found their niche maybe that just so happens not to be the weeb-but-not-in-that-way shit you'd want

 

EDIT [2]: I mean Jesus it's not even like I like those people - the VN devs I know, that is, and Lemma people in particular. But d'you think they don't have an agenda? That there's nothing anyone there wants to say?

Aside from that Uncle Mugen guy, who has said somewhere on Twitter that all he wants is to put out small games with low production values because it's some kind of hobby to him, I'm sure everyone would like to have high production values in their games and would love to make so much more. And most huge projects have sunk (Dischan much) because hey, did you know, management isn't easy, especially if we're talking about a game genre with nothing to support it (our VNs came from Japanese VNs and there are hardly any Japanese people around us to bring any sort of legacy, whereas Japanese VNs came from a multitude of stuff, like adventure games and dating sims and manga, that did have professionals involved beforehand).

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30 minutes ago, Palas said:

And most huge projects have sunk (Dischan much) because hey, did you know, management isn't easy, 

To be fair, regarding Dischan the decision to pay his staff a salary and not on commission was a pretty ludicrous move. Compounding this ridiculosity (if it isn't a word, it should be) he admits that they (as a group) completed work slowly - 'at their own pace.' If any of them had any experience in business they would realise one of the biggest money sinks is wages. Therefore, business 101 dictates games should be released quickly and regularly or developers start losing money. It’s not about management being hard, but rather he wasn’t careful with money.

Basically if you don’t want to face the realities of the small business world, don’t try and copy the business world. Everybody else pays people on commission, or they share profits, Dischan wanted to be different but they very quickly found out WHY people don't get paid salaries in the VN community.

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10 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

You sure are bad at maths. And how old is "that japanese adult game industry", you're talking about? 1982, perhaps? That's exactly when the first japanese eroge appeared on the market, mostly because computers became capable to display graphics good enough to make them somewhat enjoyable. And you're wrong about "visual novel" being coined by ELF; it was a derivative off Chunsoft's "Sound Novel". Because "Sound Novel" was trademarked by them (and as such, no one aside from Chunsoft could use that name commercially), Leaf coined their own term - "Visual Novel" - by adding character portraits and facial expressions to backgrounds. That's how the genre we know today was born.

Please refrain from posting misinformation.

I'm talking about PC-88, the computer that was famous because of hundred simple eroge. I'm stupid not to say it clearly. And you are right, the separation of ‘visual novels’ as a genre from the ‘sound novels’ came about as a result of other game companies trying to avoid the trademark. Leaf released their first vn Shizuku in 1996, but before this ELF released Doukyuusei and its sequel. Anyway, eroge is the base for vn genre, even today. That's how I see things.

 

23 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

Majority of so-called western vn developers do not have the slightest idea what vn's, or eroge are.

I have hard time to believe this when they usually use Ren'Py, the visual novel engine.

10 minutes ago, Palas said:

Jesus fucking Christ how much entitlement must you even have up your ass to sit back and claim an abstract collective of people you don't really know (in this case, VN developers who aren't Japanese) have had "enough time" to make something great and that there should be a "fantastic project" out of the blue and go like, "I'm waiting, you're not dedicating yourselves enough to satisfy me"*?

 

EDIT:

*when there are actually people living off VNs, like Ebihime, and who have found their niche maybe that just so happens not to be the weeb-but-not-in-that-way shit you'd want

As for Ebi-hime, do they need my pity? Because it's buisness when your put the price tag on your work. If you make shit in real life job, no one is going to pat your head and say "it's ok, you can try next time". But you can produce bad games again and again with Steam and blind customers who are perfectly fine with it.

So, yes, I'm naive enough to demand the great game out of the blue from VN developers who aren't Japanese, because I believe they can do it if they try. The majority is not.

PS: There're a lot of garbage japanese vn, you know. It's just no one defends them like we defend our poor OELVNs.

   

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13 hours ago, dfbreezy said:

A good story is a good story no matter what it's 'ripping off'.

I agree! I feel like this was kind of directed at me either way, so I'd like to clarify something. :P

I'd like to clarify that I just meant to say that Japanese developers are far more likely to have a good grasp of Japanese cultural and artistic conventions and the skill to utilize that knowledge, compared to a given foreign VN developer. As a result , when foreign VN developers try to imitate VNs made in Japan in terms of literary and structural devices, they usually fail compared to Japanese VNs; this was one of my points as to why OELVNs trying to imitate Japanese art styles, etc. are very likely to fail. 

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11 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

As for Ebi-hime, do they need my pity? Because it's buisness when your put the price tag on your work. If you make shit in real life job, no one is going to pat your head and say "it's ok, you can try next time". But you can produce bad games again and again with Steam and blind customers who are perfectly fine with it.

So, yes, I'm naive enough to demand the great game out of the blue from VN developers who aren't Japanese, because I believe they can do it if they try. The majority is not.

PS: There're a lot of garbage japanese vn, you know. It's just no one defends them like we defend our poor OELVNs.

   

That's exactly the point. They don't. So what exactly you're expecting might never come simply because no one needs to cater to your tastes to go by, probably. Ebihime sure doesn't. So the great game either already exists (there ARE great OELVNs out there, multiple examples have been provided) or OELVNs are actually heading in a different direction that might or might not have great games, but that simply doesn't match your interests. That'd make your whole point moot.

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19 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

 It's just no one defends them like we defend our poor OELVNs.

   

Not particularly.

People don’t defend ‘bad’ OELVNs. However, people who come from a Japanese eroge background will tend to put a heavy emphasis on a) sex and b) art, and therefore dismiss OELVNs out of hand. People from a Japanese storytelling background will put emphasis on c) play time. This causes problems because these are not areas the industry outside Japan excel in.

OELVNs tend to take the medium in a different direction than Japanese VNs. Japanese VNs are heavy on story and light on agency in games. OELVNs place a higher emphasis on agency, utilising to a fuller extent the ‘choice’ mechanic that the Japanese developers tend to use as a gimmick, but sacrifices overall length.

Because of this, many people from the Japanese world will deride OELVNs for being crap because they don’t follow the priorities of the Japanese industry. Hypocritically though they then mock them when they’re TOO much like the Japanese industry.

People into VNs for the ‘eroge’ will never like the direction OELVNs are going in. People into VNs for lengthy stories won’t appreciate that (currently) there isn’t the budget to make such things, or if there is more budget is spent on adding branches and consequences rather than length (like a book.)

VNs are one of the unique mediums that can take advantage of non-linear storytelling. Interactive storytelling. Player choice and consequence. OELVNs are heading in a direction where all of these things are explored, Japanese VNs tend to be books with pictures. In the Japanese industry, hardly any of the advantages of the medium are currently being explored, and most VNs can easily be written as books. On the whole it's a stagnant industry. I find the Japanese industry comparatively boring. That is, they don't tell as good a story as a novel, but they want to pretend they are. Maybe one day they'll awaken to the potential of the medium they're writing in and I'll be interested, but at the moment I don't get anything from a Japanese VN that I don't get from a novel.

I can go into more detail, but suffice to say that the OELVN industry is one with incredible potential, is growing rapidly, but is often derided by people unwilling to give it a chance.

That is why they’re defended so vigorously.

PS: I'd apologise for using the dreadful term 'OELVN' so much but alas, there's no suitable other atm.

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2 minutes ago, Palas said:

That's exactly the point. They don't. So what exactly you're expecting might never come simply because no one needs to cater to your tastes to go by, probably. Ebihime sure doesn't. So the great game either already exists (there ARE great OELVNs out there, multiple examples have been provided) or OELVNs are actually heading in a different direction that might or might not have great games, but that simply don't match your interests and make your whole point moot.

So, we should give up and let the western scene die? I think, we should support those efforts that could bring us some really good products. Different from Japanese of course, but still great.

And please, don't decide for me what my interests are. I like english writing style more then japanese. I believe Rin's route from KS is superior to most eastern romance vns. It happened once, so I'll be waiting for it to happen again. 

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1 minute ago, yorikbad said:

So, we should give up and let the western scene die? I think, we should support those efforts that could bring us some really good products. Different from Japanese of course, but still great.

And please, don't decide for me what my interests are. I like english writing style more then japanese. I believe Rin's route from KS is superior to most eastern romance vns. It happened once, so I'll be waiting for it to happen again. 

Die? How's it dying? If you want to let it die because it doesn't suit your interests, whatever they may be, why should you feel obligated to support it? And yet it moves.

Other than that, Rooke is saying what I should probably be saying, so go bother him instead.

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18 minutes ago, Decay said:

The western VN scene is larger and more vibrant than ever before right now. It's very far from dying.

If there's anything that's dying right now, it's the olden fan community. We played our part and we're not really required anymore. The new playerbase is already voicing their opinions with their wallets, as things should be and all's fine with the world. It's an exciting time to be a vn fan.

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6 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

The new playerbase is already voicing their opinions with their wallets

So, the Sakura games is the new hope. Yes, you're right. There's no place for me anymore.

1 hour ago, Palas said:

Die? How's it dying? If you want to let it die because it doesn't suit your interests, whatever they may be, why should you feel obligated to support it? And yet it moves.

Other than that, Rooke is saying what I should probably be saying, so go bother him instead.

You need to read posts before replying. I specifically mentioned about my interests. Use the word "taste". I like good visual novels regardless of origin. I critisize western vn scene more because I think it's time for it to grow up.

34 minutes ago, Decay said:

The western VN scene is larger and more vibrant than ever before right now. It's very far from dying.

Do you guys read my post? I said about giving up. When people accept the things how they are that's when the market is doomed. Do you believe that if you feed the public with mediocre product, sooner or later it will get tired of the Evns. The sales are declayning. Maybe it's temporary but if it's not...  Am I so wrong to demand something big and exceptional from the Evns?

1 hour ago, Rooke said:

Not particularly.

People don’t defend ‘bad’ OELVNs. However, people who come from a Japanese eroge background will tend to put a heavy emphasis on a) sex and b) art, and therefore dismiss OELVNs out of hand. People from a Japanese storytelling background will put emphasis on c) play time. This causes problems because these are not areas the industry outside Japan excel in.

OELVNs tend to take the medium in a different direction than Japanese VNs. Japanese VNs are heavy on story and light on agency in games. OELVNs place a higher emphasis on agency, utilising to a fuller extent the ‘choice’ mechanic that the Japanese developers tend to use as a gimmick, but sacrifices overall length.

Because of this, many people from the Japanese world will deride OELVNs for being crap because they don’t follow the priorities of the Japanese industry. Hypocritically though they then mock them when they’re TOO much like the Japanese industry.

People into VNs for the ‘eroge’ will never like the direction OELVNs are going in. People into VNs for lengthy stories won’t appreciate that (currently) there isn’t the budget to make such things, or if there is more budget is spent on adding branches and consequences rather than length (like a book.)

VNs are one of the unique mediums that can take advantage of non-linear storytelling. Interactive storytelling. Player choice and consequence. OELVNs are heading in a direction where all of these things are explored, Japanese VNs tend to be books with pictures. In the Japanese industry, hardly any of the advantages of the medium are currently being explored, and most VNs can easily be written as books. On the whole it's a stagnant industry. I find the Japanese industry comparatively boring. That is, they don't tell as good a story as a novel, but they want to pretend they are. Maybe one day they'll awaken to the potential of the medium they're writing in and I'll be interested, but at the moment I don't get anything from a Japanese VN that I don't get from a novel.

I can go into more detail, but suffice to say that the OELVN industry is one with incredible potential, is growing rapidly, but is often derided by people unwilling to give it a chance.

That is why they’re defended so vigorously.

Thank you for your interesting opinion.

Can people appreciate the both industries equally? Do they have to choose? I don't think the ‘choice’ mechanic can save inconsistent writing. The story is the center of any visual novel, even if it's eroge. The story and the characters are what bring people on board. I see some good examples of former and latter in the english fanfics but rarely in Evns. I see great ideas and bad realization. They are so lazy in execution. It's like I'm reading class students homework. Sometimes they use the language worse then I'm right now. And I am ESL.

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On 2016/10/16 at 2:18 AM, yorikbad said:

And please, dear Western VN's creators, don't use English VA for your games. They're already bad enough, don't make them repulsive. Spend the money on the actual plot and testing.

You're in luck, as this OELVN will be fully voiced by Japanese seiyuus:

Quantum Suicide: https://vndb.org/v18699

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50 minutes ago, UnlimitedMoeWorks said:

I spoke with because they all had the fixed idea that the anime and manga industry is only reserved for 100% pure-blooded Japanese, and that no foreigner/westerner should ever touch the industry. Ever!

What's wrong with that? There are plenty of non-whites who would like to be allowed access to some job opportunities but can't because they are barred from it due to these job opportunities being historically reserved and awarded exclusively to whites. See the immense lists of roles that were supposed to go to East-Asian or Middle-Eastern actors but were ultimately awarded to white actors instead.

Besides there are quite a bit of "Manga-like" comics made by non-japanese, on mangaupdates these are listed under the "OEL" category (even if they are not even originally in english): https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?type=oel&perpage=50

Even some of these managed to be published in Japan: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2015-08-06/radiant-becomes-1st-french-manga-published-in-japan/.91351

The Korean and Chinese even make their own "manga-like" comics, they are respectivelly called "Manhwa" and "Manhua".

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8 hours ago, Nier said:

You're in luck, as this OELVN will be fully voiced by Japanese seiyuus:

Quantum Suicide: https://vndb.org/v18699

Well, I need suicide right now :)

Jokes aside, this one https://vndb.org/v19322 will have them too. If it's Evn in japanese style, that's ok, I guess. But for western authors I recommend stick with non-voice version while it's very expensive to hire professional cast. F.e. I think, actors in "Life is Strange" did a good job. But I don't think EVNs have budget for this. And hiring someone with lower skills ("Just Desert") only makes the things worse.

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3 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

Well, I need suicide right now :)

Jokes aside, this one https://vndb.org/v19322 will have them too. If it's Evn in japanese style, that's ok, I guess. But for western authors I recommend stick with non-voice version while it's very expensive to hire professional cast. F.e. I think, actors in "Life is Strange" did a good job. But I don't think EVNs have budget for this. And hiring someone with lower skills ("Just Desert") only makes the things worse.

Yeah I know about Shining Song Starnova but didn't mention it because it's not known if it will have full japanese voice acting or just partial.

Life is Strange isn't a VN though...

And the actors from Just Deserts most aren't even really amateurs, they already did dubs on anime and/or video games.

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Thing about english voice actors, is that the amateur voiceover scene in Japan is extremely robust and full people looking for their break into the massive professional seiyuu market. The amateur voiceover scene is much smaller in America, largely due to the professional scene being smaller. Our professionals are very talented, but our amateurs are... amateurish, to put it kindly. Their career expectations in the field are lower, and so their equipment is worse, their training is worse, there's a far smaller selection to find talent in, etc.

For as much as I've disagree with Yorikbad on most subjects here, I'm with him in regards to voice acting. The amateur VO scene here is just too underdeveloped to expect even decent results from. And no matter how indie you are, you shouldn't actively seek to hire non-essential substandard talent to your team. With stuff like art and music? Sometimes you have to go with what you can get. Actively bringing down the quality of your game with mediocre voice performances? That's just a waste of money. 

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3 hours ago, UnlimitedMoeWorks said:

You're actually missing my point here. This is not about actors and "white washing", it's about the common belief among anime fans that only the Japanese can do manga, anime, light novels, visual novels, etc. Although it's great to hear that some OEL manga works are getting published in Japan, so that may be a start.

I wasn't missing the point, I was giving an example. The belief that only the japanese can do manga, light novels, visual novels is not that much different from similar belief found in other form of entertainments from other regions, such as the western movie entertainment where basically people will go on to defend and condone the whitewashing of characters that were originally meant for East-Asian or Middle-Eastern actors but went to white actors instead, they would say hypocritical things as to try to appear neutral when they really aren't such as "I don't care if the actor is white, black, asian, purple I care if the actor is good", which indirectly betrays their unspoken belief that only white actors can be "good actors".

Manga is associated with Japan and the Japanese, so of course the expectations of people is to have the greatest work available to them and for them the greatest mangas would inevitably be japanese. Similarly, Hollywood is associated with the West and the Westerners, as such people expect white actors and white directors to deliver the full "Hollywood package" better than anybody else.

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