What's the general opinion on English made/OEL VN's?

[sanahtlig]

As @Palas mentioned, OELVNs are more likely to feature gameplay, and dating sims in particular are likely to have English origin.  If you're looking for characters and settings with feminist values, non-virgins, or have zero tolerance for moe, then OELVNs might also be the place to look.

If you're looking for porn with story, then OELVNs are probably NOT the place to look.  Western culture is still far behind the curve there due to a strongly-rooted preconception that porn and strong storytelling cannot coexist.

Another consideration is that the vast majority of OELVNs are essentially doujin works.  Production values are low and the creators are typically inexperienced by Japanese standards.

[bronx819]

6 hours ago, Narcosis said:

>EVN's are meh

>KS is an exception because it was first

This can't sound any more biased

Instead making another pointless topic, where people will repeat the same things over and over again, why not use search and add something meaningful to one of the already existing topics? Like this one or this one, for example?

Cause I was dead tired last night and randomly made the post on my phone D:

[ChaosRaven]

I think the biggest problem of OELVN's is that they simply have a very tight buget, because they are limited to the English VN market which isn't as big the Japanese one. Another problem is the availability of (good) English voice actors, especially ones that are also willing to do H-scenes.

I think one way for an OELVN to deal with those limitations would be to 'attack' the Japanese market. They could solve the voices problem that way and also get access to a much bigger VN market. Competition would be a lot higher of course, but considering that there a lots of doujin and low buget teams on the Japanese market too, it should be certainly possible. But it also bear the danger that the English VN's get a strong J-VN touch to appeal to the Japanese crowd.

Another way for an OELVN to be successful on the English market would be gameplay-hybrids. They usually have a better chance to appeal to the Steam users because of the gameplay. That's why HuniePop got so popular.

Though, considering that more and more Japanese VN's are localized and published in the west, it might also get harder for OELVN to compete.

Ironically, the infamous Winged Cloud company might be one of the rare English VN developers that might be able to finance bigger titles like Sakura Dungeon for example (judging by Sanatlig's review). Technically, they just do what MangaGamer did in their early times and spam lots of cheap shovelware titles to finance a few bigger ones and slowly get a loyal fan base.

[bronx819]

55 minutes ago, UnlimitedMoeWorks said:

There's a common opinion out there that only the Japanese can make VNs and as such, many people think English attempts by non-Japanese are considered crap. That's just raising the bar a bit too high don't you think? I'm sure with enough dedication and hard work, a well-made OEL VN can be on the same quality as a Japanese VN. We just haven't seen many of them yet. While it is true that most of them are really poor quality, there are a few diamonds in the ruff. Katawa Shoujo is the closest to being such an example of that.

 

Also I agree with that, though its hard to decide what would make a 'quality' VN. To me, a big factor is art. I dismiss most OEL VN's based on the art, which is shallow of me I understand, but if a group of people on 4chan made a VN with an art style that rivaled some official companies, for free, why can't people backed by crowdfunding work a bit harder in that aspect?

Though I do remember an interesting looking VN on indiegogo, the art looked good enough, and they had a nice little tier where you can add an OC of your, drawn by the artist. Can't remember the name though.

4 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

I think the biggest problem of OELVN's is that they simply have a very tight buget, because they are limited to the English VN market which isn't as big the Japanese one. Another problem is the availability of (good) English voice actors, especially one that also do H-scenes.

Ironically, the infamous Winged Cloud company might be one of the rare English VN developers that might be able to finance bigger titles like Sakura Dungeon for example (judging by Sanatlig's review). Technically, they just do what MangaGamer did in their early times and spam lots of cheap shovelware titles to finance a few bigger ones and slowly get a loyal fan base.

I think one way for an OELVN to deal with those limitations would be to 'attack' the Japanese market. They could solve the voices problem that way and also get access to a much bigger VN market. Competition would be a lot higher of course, but considering that there a lots of doujin and low buget teams on the Japanese market too, it should be certainly possible. But it also bear the danger that the English VN's get a strong J-VN touch to appeal to the Japanese crowd.

Another way for an OELVN to be successful on the English market would be gameplay-hybrids. They usually have a better chance to appeal to the Steam users because of the gameplay. That's why HuniePop got so popular.

Though, considering that more and more Japanese VN's are localized and published in the west, it might also get harder for OELVN to compete.

Recently a lot of VN's are being licensed and translated, something I am very glad for, though sucks for ORL VN developers. Although I don't like the artstyle for most VN's I see pop out on an almost weekly basis I would love to see another good OEL.

As for the budget thing there is kickstarter, its worked in a few cases, and yeah include a gameplay aspect. One of my favorite VN's, Kamidori, has a very fun gameplay mechanic. People just need to find the right kind of gameplay that won't be seen as ripping off something else, something that's very hard to do these days.

[Mr Poltroon]

Speaking of opinions, I'm of the opinion that people that speak ill of Western VNs have not played sufficient samples to form any sort of conclusion, and rely on, indeed, popular opinion (Sakura Titles are particularly popular despite being some of the worst examples) and art quality, which by itself is sufficient to make them scoff.

Clearly, this must be utterly terrible.
https://s.vndb.org/sf/24/43124.jpg

Never mind trying the title, all Western VNs are crap anyway.

 

Well, in my magnanimosity, I am willing to understand that art and budget are big factors to some people. Indeed, Umineko and Higurashi, as well as Muv-Luv, Ever7 and some older VNs have people not playing them because their art looks dated; and, oh, my voice acting! and, oh, my pretty interface! -- so it's not discrimination limited to Western VNs per say.

Then comes the cyclical problem that Funyarinpa mentioned. If people refuse to buy their games, well, there's never going to be a bloody budget!

Look at Sunrider: It comes as close to being a full budget Western VN as we've ever had. Plenty of sprites, CGs and (Japanese) voice acting, as well as a (Japanese) opening. All this because of the Kickstarter moneyz; certainly not off the sales of its, initial, free game, Mask of Arcadius.

On the English side, I can think of few other titles besides Just Deserts that were voice acted and, as usual, when the game has voice acting, you have to make cuts somewhere, and as for this title, it's just filled with grindy gameplay.

 

At the end of the day, the power of Western VNs lies in their pricing. You won't find them much more expensive than 20 dollars (most are either free or around 10), unlike almost all their Japanese counterparts (lying at somewhere around or above 40). Unless you're Sunrider, with, you guessed it! Its above average budget!

The problem is the industry itself. When you're in an industry filled with corsairs, the power of low pricing does not seem to help you much.

[Darklord Rooke]

39 minutes ago, bronx819 said:

One of my favorite VN's, Kamidori, has a very fun gameplay mechanic. People just need to find the right kind of gameplay that won't be seen as ripping off something else, something that's very hard to do these days.

Kamidori is a grind-a-thon. Not my kind of gameplay, though I suppose if you like Disgaea you wouldn't mind it. It's very Japanese though, as in grinding is an acceptable part of Japanese RPGs, but not so Western RPGs. I wouldn't recommend ripping this gameplay off. It's boring, imo. There's nothing special about grinding your way to victory, it just requires time and therefore as a combat mechanic ... it's lacking.

2 hours ago, Nier said:

Most of the VN I played are commercial VNs either fan-translated or officially localized, but I did play a few japanese doujin VNs and they didn't strike me as lacking such variety of scenery

The most recent VN I played, FUNBAGS Fantasy, had a very big and obvious problem regarding recurring sceneries. The sceneries repeat as often as EVNs do. However, I don't see anybody complaining about it. I suppose because they read it for other reasons, heh.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As for the question in the OP, I think people around here are familiar enough with my opinions by now. There's very few Japanese VNs I enjoy, mainly because I'm not impressed with how most Japanese VNs are written.

[bronx819]

2 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Kamidori is a grind-a-thon. Not my kind of gameplay, though I suppose if you like Disgaea you wouldn't mind it. It's very Japanese though, as in grinding is an acceptable part of Japanese RPGs, but not so Western RPGs. I wouldn't recommend ripping this gameplay off. It's boring, imo. There's nothing special about grinding your way to victory, it just requires time and therefore as a combat mechanic ... it's lacking.

The most recent VN I played, FUNBAGS Fantasy, had a very big and obvious problem regarding recurring sceneries. The sceneries repeat as often as EVNs do. However, I don't see anybody complaining about it. I suppose because they read it for other reasons, heh.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As for the question in the OP, I think people around here are familiar enough with my opinions by now. There's very few Japanese VNs I enjoy, mainly because I'm not impressed with how most Japanese VNs are written.

I only had to grind twice to beat a boss, and it was only a few levels. I only used like 5 characters and I made it through ok.

You mean scenarios or the scenery? I can understand why the scenarios would get repetitive but the scenery its almost to be expected

[sanahtlig]

5 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Kamidori is a grind-a-thon. Not my kind of gameplay, though I suppose if you like Disgaea you wouldn't mind it. It's very Japanese though, as in grinding is an acceptable part of Japanese RPGs, but not so Western RPGs. I wouldn't recommend ripping this gameplay off. It's boring, imo. There's nothing special about grinding your way to victory, it just requires time and therefore as a combat mechanic ... it's lacking.

Kamidori isn't a grindy game unless you want it to be.  The gameplay is about as refined as I've seen in an H-RPG.

[Nier]

39 minutes ago, Mr Poltroon said:

Well, in my magnanimosity, I am willing to understand that art and budget are big factors to some people. Indeed, Umineko and Higurashi, as well as Muv-Luv, Ever7 and some older VNs have people not playing them because their art looks dated; and, oh, my voice acting! and, oh, my pretty interface!

I certainly wouldn't play Higurashi or Umineko vanilla PC versions, not because the art is outdated but because it is horrendous, no voices, crappy backgrounds... Truly if I couldn't play the PS3 versions of Higurashi and Umineko in one way or the other (PC port of the PS3 version for Umineko and PS3fication mod for Higurashi) I certainly would pass up these titles. And that comes from someone who love Umineko and Higurashi (the only 07th Expansion works worth mentioning, Higanbana and Rose Guns Days can't hold a candle to these and can't even begin to compare).

[Darklord Rooke]

1 minute ago, sanahtlig said:

Kamidori isn't a grindy game unless you want it to be.  The gameplay is about as refined as I've seen in an H-RPG.

Doing the extra stuff? Which require you to be about level 90 when you're level 40 odd? That's a pretty terrible mechanic. It's not that customers want a grindy game it's what they have to engage in if they want to complete certain parts of the game. And that's never a mechanic that makes sense to me, but to be fair I grew up with Western RPGs which incorporate a different design mechanic. 

To be honest, I much prefer H-strategy games to H-RPGs. Sengoku Rance was a game which took real strategy and thinking, and I enjoyed that a LOT. Kamidori was fun with the first play through, but the new game + gameplay turned me off.

[Darklord Rooke]

21 minutes ago, bronx819 said:

I can understand why the scenarios would get repetitive but the scenery its almost to be expected

Sceneries and it isn't. The scenery is repetitive to the point where they shoe-horn the same backgrounds into situations where ... they almost shouldn't. It's definitely a budget thing, or it was just pretty shoddy. If people are meeting in a castle it's always the same room with the same items strewn in the background, and the corridor is always the same corridor, and the hall is always the same hall and etc etc etc. 

Nier was just commenting that the sceneries in Sunrider would get repetitive and monotonous, and he said he hadn't seen a Japanese VN like that. I'm just telling him that they're out there  

[sanahtlig]

4 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Doing the extra stuff? Which require you to be about level 90 when you're level 40 odd? That's a pretty terrible mechanic.

It's new game+ content that some people want.  It's simply dangled there as a carrot for these people to play the game again.  The simple presence of this bonus content doesn't make it a "grindy game".

[bronx819]

3 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Sceneries and it isn't. The scenery is repetitive to the point where they shoe-horn the same CGs into situations where ... they almost shouldn't. It's definitely a budget thing, or it was just pretty shoddy. If people are meeting in a castle it's always the same room with the same items strewn in the background, and the hall is always the same hall and etc etc etc. 

Nier was just commenting that the sceneries in Sunrider would get repetitive and monotonous, and he said he hadn't seen a Japanese VN like that. I'm just telling him that they're out there  

It's an H-game, and the story requires him to stay in that general area most of the time. Yes they can make varying scenes with maybe some people in the background, but I appreciate the increase in story length at the expense of some monotonous scenery. Different people have different tastes, so far my only real complaint is the music, it feels like they only ever use 4 tracks.

[ChaosRaven]

15 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Doing the extra stuff? Which require you to be about level 90 when you're level 40 odd? That's a pretty terrible mechanic. It's not that customers want a grindy game it's what they have to engage in if they want to complete certain parts of the game. And that's never a mechanic that makes sense to me, but to be fair I grew up with Western RPGs which incorporate a different design mechanic.

You shouldn't confuse grinding with game machanics. Kamidori could certainly get pretty grindy, but that doesn't mean that its game mechanics were bad. The shop and alchemy system was actually rather unique. Grinding just means endless spam of rather repetitive and meaningless battles. You can get that with every game, regardless how refined its game mechanics are. And I have certainly seen enough grinding in western RPG and strategy games too.

But I do agree that grinding is a design flaw that can ruin even a game with superb game mechanics. 

[Darklord Rooke]

1 minute ago, ChaosRaven said:

And I have certainly seen enough grinding in western RPG and strategy games too.

Most modern western RPGs don't require grinding to open up different areas. Skyrim and Oblivion had a level scaling mechanic, in Oblivion's case it made it so most areas were accessible from the start and actually became more difficult the higher level you got. BG and BG2 were natural level progressions. Same with Icewind Dale and the like. Shadowrun games have zero grinding. Diablo has no grinding. Fights don't give you experience in Pillars of Eternity. No grinding in Spiderweb's games.

There may be a few around, but Western RPGs tend to stray away from that mechanic. These days anyway ...

[Darklord Rooke]

And no, grinding is not endless spam of meaningless battles. If you define it as such, you can describe anything as 'grinding' simply by fiddling with the term 'meaningless' ... which is actually quite subjective.

[Darklord Rooke]

I'm on the way out the door, so this will be quick.

'Grinding' has the goal of 'level increase' implicit in its meaning. That is, if the goal of those 'meaningless battles' isn't to gain levels, then what you're doing isn't 'grinding' (going by how the majority of people use the word.)

[ChaosRaven]

1 minute ago, Rooke said:

'Grinding' has the goal of 'level increase' implicit in its meaning. That is, if the goal of those 'meaningless battles' isn't to gain levels, then what you're doing isn't 'grinding' (going by how the majority of people use the word.)

Honestly, that's hairsplitting.

And if grinding has the goal of level increase in its meaning, then why isn't Diablo a grindy game although it is all about leveling and item collecting?! I mean, Diablo is simply the epitome of a grinding game.

[bronx819]

6 minutes ago, Rooke said:

I'm on the way out the door, so this will be quick.

'Grinding' has the goal of 'level increase' implicit in its meaning. That is, if the goal of those 'meaningless battles' isn't to gain levels, then what you're doing isn't 'grinding' (going by how the majority of people use the word.)

You can grind in any game, and as the MC you have to work hard to be strong to be the hero (or anti-hero) so what's wrong with some grinding? If anything games like Skyrim are too easy, you can max your sneak by modding your controller to walk backwards all night. Some people want to go above and beyond to max out everything in the game, which can result in grinding. Same deal with Kamidori, you don't have to grind (I did but that's cause I suck) to beat the game, but you have to grind to get the extra content, if you just want to beat the game and enjoy the story then no grinding is necessary.

[Deep Blue]

The problem with oelvn(and im going to includ several more languages too not just english) is the writing. It goes from people writing them that clearly dont know anything about writing itself to some really talented ones, sadly it seems to be more from first one and not the latter. 
In japanese, which happens a lot too,  there are many good writers that work with certain companies so they keep releasing good material or at least somehow decent, so the good vns kinda contrast with the really bad ones, with oelvn that doesn't happen so we tend to think that everything is crap when it's actually not, some oelvn dont have anything to envy to the japanese ones. Also japanese vns work with a really different budget that oelvn dont have, most of the time is the work of just 1 guy with the help of some friends here and there...

Just to name a few:

One thousand lies (spanish vn)
katawa shoujo (english vn)
Lucy (korean vn)
Juniper's Knot (english vn)
Бесконечное лето (russian vn)
 

[Kawasumi]

some are good some are not.

[yorikbad]

Still, apart from Katawa Shoujo there is no gaijin visual novel that I can call great. There are some good things like Everlasting Summer and OTL, some passable examples like Juniper's Knot, Sepia Tears and Sunrider but generally speaking all OELVNs are just poor attempts to copy Japan games, their style, tropes and even characters. It's absurd, but the most English VN I've read is The Fata Morgana which is... japanese kamige.

I don't understand why everyone so afraid to tell their own stories. You have VN's frameworks, people, that allow you to create any game you like. Just choose the theme different from the 'high school romance'. And for God's Sake, make a long decent story. Why English VN's writers are so terrified of words? It's visual novel, not Shakespeare. Do it more. Two hours OELVN standard is a damn joke.

And please, dear Western VN's creators, don't use English VA for your games. They're already bad enough, don't make them repulsive. Spend the money on the actual plot and testing.

That's all I have to say.

[Darklord Rooke]

3 hours ago, ChaosRaven said:

Honestly, that's hairsplitting.

It isn't hairsplitting, actually. 

Nothing exists in a vacuum, everything exists relative to something else. I do 80 km/hr in my car RELATIVE to the ground. I'm happy RELATIVE to my default condition. This ice cream is tasty RELATIVE to my normal food (and especially when compared to this side of brussel sprouts.) The ball was passed forward relative to the passer, not travelled forward relative to the ground.

When someone describes something as 'meaningless' they usually mean 'meaningless RELATIVE to my ideas of worth and what I perceive to be entertaining and important'. Unless of course they mean 'meaningless' relative to the games goals, but usually they'll explicitly say this in this scenario.

Because the idea of a meaningless activity is relative to the person, it's useless as a general definition of a concept. Each person will have a different definition of the genre.

So just some background material first.

3 hours ago, ChaosRaven said:

And if grinding has the goal of level increase in its meaning, then why isn't Diablo a grindy game although it is all about leveling and item collecting?! I mean, Diablo is simply the epitome of a grinding game.

Diablo involves grinding for loot, which tends to be a bit different than grinding for levels. There's not much point grinding for levels in Diablo, when you started the original game people sought to get to nightmare as quickly as possible. You reach the level to unlock nightmare before you finish the game. I don't see much purpose grinding for levels TBH.

Grinding for loot means the consumer is consistently rewarded for his activity, or anticipates the prospect of being rewarded for his activities. This is why so many people get addicted, it's a reward mechanism.

Grinding for levels features no such reward mechanism. It's why it's an inferior mechanic when talking about consumer entertainment. It's inferior because there's nothing to make those activities enjoyable (except possibly a detailed combat system.) 

So what is grinding? Grinding for levels is gathering experience points for no other purpose than to gather experience points. When grinding for loot, the sole purpose behind those activities is searching for loot. In Etrian Odyssey the player's purpose is usually to reach the end of a dungeon, it's not grinding. In most Western RPGs there's a purpose other than gathering levels, which makes it not grinding. This isn't splitting hairs, it's getting to what grinding is and why grinding for levels is looked down on. 

3 hours ago, bronx819 said:

You can grind in any game, and as the MC you have to work hard to be strong to be the hero (or anti-hero) so what's wrong with some grinding?

What about those games where there's set monsters on the map and they don't regenerate? I answered the second question just above.

10 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

It's absurd, but the most English VN I've read is The Fata Morgana which is... japanese kamige.

What makes Fata Morgana an ... English style VN?

10 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

And please, dear Western VN's creators, don't use English VA for your games. They're already bad enough, don't make them repulsive. Spend the money on the actual plot and testing.

Dear Western VNs, feel free to use as much English voice acting as you like. Go long, go hard :3

[solidbatman]

50 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

Still, apart from Katawa Shoujo there is no gaijin visual novel that I can call great. There are some good things like Everlasting Summer and OTL, some passable examples like Juniper's Knot, Sepia Tears and Sunrider but generally speaking all OELVNs are just poor attempts to copy Japan games, their style, tropes and even characters. It's absurd, but the most English VN I've read is The Fata Morgana which is... japanese kamige.

I don't understand why everyone so afraid to tell their own stories. You have VN's frameworks, people, that allow you to create any game you like. Just choose the theme different from the 'high school romance'. And for God's Sake, make a long decent story. Why English VN's writers are so terrified of words? It's visual novel, not Shakespeare. Do it more. Two hours OELVN standard is a damn joke.

And please, dear Western VN's creators, don't use English VA for your games. They're already bad enough, don't make them repulsive. Spend the money on the actual plot and testing.

That's all I have to say.

Obviously someone who has not tried many EVNs. Trust me, there are some really really good ones out there that do their own thing. You just aren't looking, and the community shits on them because they arent weeb enough 

[Eclipsed]

My consensus is that ELVNs should just try to do their own thang and not try to be on par with / compare to JVNs

Kinda like how we got WRPGs vs JRPGs

Comics vs Manga

Cartoons vs Anime

And any other stretchy definition'o regional medio comparison'os

~~
I'm pro JP weeberz who only reads and is interested in VNs cuz of JPness, though I'm not gonna shat on EVNs, more i just don't care about them.