[Poll + Discussion] Censorship in Gaming: Is self-censorship actually censorship?

[Deep Blue]

8 minutes ago, Rooke said:

To make a BLANKET STATEMENT like you did, you need a minimum quota to be filled. You are wrong, yet again.

EDIT: Firstly you stated there was a trend in the gaming industry.

Then you pulled out an example which was to represent that trend. For an example to represent a trend it would need to be representative of the likely reasons behind that trend, which means now you need a ‘minimum quota’.

You were the one that stated that you need a minimum quota to be called censorship not me.
Yes I did say that gaming industry trends to what society wants because of political sensibilities reasons and this generates leads to cases of censorship.

And we are still talking about the meaning of censorship and if changing a character or anything else in a game (forcing the developer to do so for political sensibilities) is consider censorship, which has nothing to do with trend or minimum quota, your reasoning is a fallacy.
 

[Decay]

15 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

To redirect this discussion to something slightly more relevant to VNs, but still controversial, consider JAST's release of Aselia the Eternal (spreadsheet link).

 

Title

Product link

English release date

Publisher (primary)

Publisher (secondary)

Adult version

Mosaics?

Non-adult version

Description of censorship / differences between versions

Remedies

Aselia the Eternal

J-List

3/23/2010

JAST USA

not released

uncensored

The adult version was not localized due to concerns about the loli content

None

 

This was an eroge that had a non-adult version in Japan, and JAST chose to release only this version.  I say definitively that Aselia the Eternal was censored.  Do you agree?

 

JAST and their translators chose the version of the game they felt was best. I remember reading the reasonings from the translators from the time it was still a fan patch and they seemed sound to me. I know JAST later said some things about the loli content but that's not the reason why the all-ages version was chosen in the first place. It does not really strike me as censorship.

11 minutes ago, Rooke said:

What you don't realise was I was there for the WHOLE debate, and if you have a problem with Paul Feig's comedy you say "I have a problem with Paul Feig's comedy." Saying "Oh my God, they're fucking women" in no way translates to "I have a problem with Paul Feig's comedy." 

Additionally, I find it very hard to believe that the entire scandal was manufactured when it ended up chasing one of the movie's female leads off of twitter due to the sheer volume of racist and misogynistic insults she was receiving.

[Darklord Rooke]

2 minutes ago, Deep Blue said:

You were the one that stated that you need a minimum quota to be called censorship not me.

Once again you've misinterpreted something. I said if you wanted YOUR EXAMPLE as being shown to have been censored for political reasons, then you'll need a quota. Saying I said something I didn't and arguing that is called a 'Strawman'.

3 minutes ago, Deep Blue said:

Yes I did say that gaming industry trends to what society wants because of political sensibilities reasons and this generates leads to cases of censorship.

Something you haven't established.

 

[sanahtlig]

4 minutes ago, Decay said:

JAST and their translators chose the version of the game they felt was best. I remember reading the reasonings from the translators from the time it was still a fan patch and they seemed sound to me. I know JAST later said some things about the loli content but that's not the reason why the all-ages version was chosen in the first place. It does not really strike me as censorship.

Why the fan translators chose the non-adult version of Aselia the Eternal has absolutely no bearing on the JAST release.  JAST could've released whichever version they wanted, or both.

[Narcosis]

It's more of a matter regarding standards and everchanging, modern ethics. Question remains - do you want to remain original, or will you sacrifice said originality to appeal to a wider, international market? It's inevitable a clash will occur. Eitherway, it's a lost cause, no matter how you look at it; if a creator feels the need to self-censorship their own work, you could as well ask, what was the point of making it the way it was originally meant to be.

Censorship nowadays became an ingenious way to impact and influence others' works, all of which wouldn't be possible in any other way. It's bad, but it cannot be helped.

[Darklord Rooke]

5 minutes ago, Decay said:

Additionally, I find it very hard pressed that the entire scandal was manufactured when it ended up chasing one of the movie's female leads off of twitter due to the sheer volume of racist and misogynistic insults she was receiving.

Men are used to being catered to, then when you have that privilege slowly being removed there's always resistance. It was an ugly chapter, for sure.

[Decay]

3 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Why the fan translators chose the non-adult version of Aselia the Eternal has absolutely no bearing on the JAST release.  JAST could've released whichever version they wanted, or both.

Indeed, and so they did release whichever version they wanted. I have no reason to believe their reasoning changed between being a fan translation and being picked up by JAST.

[sanahtlig]

1 minute ago, Decay said:

Indeed, and so they did release whichever version they wanted. I have no reason to believe their reasoning changed between being a fan translation and being picked up by JAST.

Except JAST explained that the adult version was a no-go because of the loli content.  It was a pretty easy decision: no release or a non-adult release.

[Deep Blue]

6 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Once again you've misinterpreted something. I said if you wanted YOUR EXAMPLE as being shown to have been censored for political reasons, then you'll need a quota. Saying I said something I didn't and arguing that is called a 'Strawman'.

Something you haven't established.

 

The joke "removed" from pillars of eternity, the changes made to the baldur's gate expansion, yes I'm giving you an example of both sides that lead to censorship or "coerced" them into changing their own game for political sensibilities as a trend of how society is today. 
I wont give you examples of main characters being females because you wont hear a guy from BioWare for example, stating something like that in public but yes there are several cases out there, then again you don't believe is because of that which I think is naive.

[Darklord Rooke]

2 minutes ago, Deep Blue said:

I wont give you examples of main characters being females because you wont hear a guy from BioWare for example, stating something like that in public but yes there are several cases out there, then again you don't believe is because of that which I think is naive.

There was an example from the novel sphere where someone wrote a romance story between a gay couple and sent it for publication. It was rejected because the Publishing Company thought there wasn't a market for it. The writer did nothing more than change the gender of one of his characters, submitted it, and it was published. That COULD be viewed as censorship, it was made for financial reasons however and therefore shouldn't. Companies are a business first and foremost, after all.

So yes there are examples where characters' genders are changed for political reasons, but IMO not enough to make the sort of generalisation you want to make.

[Decay]

13 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Except JAST explained that the adult version was a no-go because of the loli content.  It was a pretty easy decision: no release or a non-adult release.

Yes, after deciding that the all-ages version was superior and should be prioritized for reasons related to gameplay and extra content, they also decided they wouldn't bother releasing the separate adult version. Is it also censorship in your mind that JAST probably will never consider a Tanuki Soft game because of loli content?

I see no wrongdoing on the part of JAST relating to Aselia the Eternal.

[Darklord Rooke]

8 minutes ago, Deep Blue said:

I wont give you examples of main characters being females because you wont hear a guy from BioWare for example, stating something like that in public but yes there are several cases out there, then again you don't believe is because of that which I think is naive.

"Life is Strange", every Publishing company (bar one) the developers submitted the game to wanted to change the characters' genders to male. They found a single Publisher who would allow them to keep the genders as women and they were grateful. Was this censorship? No, it was a decision by the publishers that male protagonists would net more sales.

To say when the genders are flipped that it suddenly becomes censorship is naive. Do you think the financial argument disappears? That political reasons are the only reasons to do things?

[Darklord Rooke]

13 minutes ago, Deep Blue said:

 yes I'm giving you an example of both sides that lead to censorship or "coerced" them into changing their own game for political sensibilities as a trend of how society is today. 

Also two examples doesn't establish a trend *rolls eyes*.

[sanahtlig]

27 minutes ago, Decay said:

Yes, after deciding that the all-ages version was superior and should be prioritized for reasons related to gameplay and extra content, they also decided they wouldn't bother releasing the separate adult version.

You should check the Fuwanovel post I wrote about it (linked in the spreadsheet quote).  The false dichotomy you're perpetuating is incorrect.

Edit: And ironically enough, the original post was written in response to you.

[Deep Blue]

19 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Also two examples doesn't establish a trend *rolls eyes*.

lol, the change made to the ff character mobius, the female character added to call of duty or battlefield(some shitty fps) I don't know which game was because of the complains of lack of female characters, all the critics received from this survival game (rust?), all the complains about the new zelda because they are not using a female character... meh I can give you more examples but how do you determine that it's a trend is up to you (it clearly is) I find this conversation right now a waste of time I also don't want to change your opinion nor you will change mine so I will drop it here. 

[wyldstrykr]

1 hour ago, sanahtlig said:

Why the fan translators chose the non-adult version of Aselia the Eternal has absolutely no bearing on the JAST release.  JAST could've released whichever version they wanted, or both.

because the non adult version of aselia has more content/routes than that? or as i recall to the fan translation website. idk about the eien no aselia sp tho

[VLOCKUP]

Personally, I always wondered why Xuse never made the PC re-port Aselia the Eternal as 18+ and instead keep it as simple port. They could have just add the sex scenes from previous versions.

[WinterfuryZX]

1 hour ago, sanahtlig said:

This was an eroge that had a non-adult version in Japan, and JAST chose to release only this version.  I say definitively that Aselia the Eternal was censored.  Do you agree?

 

No it's like saying Nier was censored, there are two versions in Japanese (Gestalt and Replicant) and only a single version (gestalt) in English. Aselia is the same, the adult version is simply unreleased.

[sanahtlig]

21 minutes ago, wyldstrykr said:

because the non adult version of aselia has more content/routes than that? or as i recall to the fan translation website. idk about the eien no aselia sp tho

No.  The PC Special Edition had the combined content of the previous adult and non-adult versions and was released 18 months prior to JAST's release.  This "adult version had less content" myth that people are still propagating is old info and INCORRECT when used to make inferences about JAST's release.

[VLOCKUP]

8 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

No.  The PC Special Edition had the combined content of the previous adult and non-adult versions and was released 18 months prior to JAST's release.  This "inferior adult version" myth that people are still propagating is old info and INCORRECT when used to make inferences about JAST's release.

Oh. I guess they are lazy then. Also, anti-loli content deal was broken when they released Littlewitch so I wonder why they gave the "loli is bad" excuse. Wonder what changed their stance? Competition?

Kind of shame that they don't released the SE version but oh well. I already done my fair share of Aselia when it was fan TL and I'm certainly won't buy JAST version at all. Simply because JAST just sucks and it will take a long time to give my earned money to them again. Littlewitch will be one of those exceptions though and I'm still contemplating whether Eiyuu Senki is worth it or not.

[wyldstrykr]

4 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

No.  The PC Special Edition had the combined content of the previous adult and non-adult versions and was released 18 months prior to JAST's release.  This "inferior adult version" myth that people are still propagating is old info and INCORRECT when used to make inferences about JAST's release.

i looked at the date when the patch is released and the sp version is released. it appears that there is ~two month difference between them. so i can safely assume that they started to translate the non adult because there is a lot more content than the adult one UNLESS xuse announced that they are planning to make sp version at the time they translated that.

and yes, my english is bad and i should feel bad!

[VLOCKUP]

3 minutes ago, wyldstrykr said:

i looked at the date when the patch is released and the sp version is released. it appears that there is ~two month difference between them. so i can safely assume that they started to translate the non adult because there is a lot more content than the adult one UNLESS xuse announced that they are planning to make sp version at the time they translated that.

and yes, my english is bad and i should feel bad!

The patch is fan TL and the game is officially released in 2011. That makes no sense why they should started translating the AA version when the game was picked up months after the Fan TL was released.

[sanahtlig]

18 minutes ago, VLOCKUP said:

Oh. I guess they are lazy then. Also, anti-loli content deal was broken when they released Littlewitch so I wonder why they gave the "loli is bad" excuse. Wonder what changed their stance? Competition?

JAST's stance has evolved over time.  They're more willing to release games with lolis in them these days (e.g., Saya no Uta, Littlewitch Romanesque, Shiny Days + unofficial patch).  I talked to JAST recently about an adult release of Aselia, and they said that while it was possible, it wasn't enough of a priority to warrant putting additional effort into a new release of an old game.  In other words, the window of opportunity to make this happen was missed.

[VLOCKUP]

6 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

JAST's stance has evolved over time.  They're more willing to release games with lolis in them these days (e.g., Saya no Uta, Littlewitch Romanesque, Shiny Days + unofficial patch).  I talked to JAST recently about an adult release of Aselia, and they said that while it was possible, it wasn't enough of a priority to warrant putting additional effort into a new release of an old game.  In other words, the window of opportunity to make this happened was missed.

Typically their own fault for not releasing the superior(most recent with everything available) version at the same time. They could have make it a simultaneous release. Now, even make an adult patch wouldn't be advantageous with priorities and all.

I guess the priority thing is what make STARLESS fix patch will be released. They have better priorities after all.

 

[solidbatman]

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