KARAKARA, Dovac, Twitter wars, and overcharging for adult content

[sanahtlig]

34 minutes ago, Tiagofvarela said:

In what other way would one intend to evaluate the price of any kind of content? Quality?
I feel I am missing or incapable of understanding many pieces of the puzzle on this matter, including what exactly you find objectionable.

Breadth of appeal (the number of potential customers), for one.  The more customers you can defray the costs of production over, the lower the price you can charge.  Conversely, niche content demands a premium, and in this case that principle is being applied to gouge adult gamers.  I don't like that.  I accept it when adult customers are bearing the full brunt of production costs.  But when 10k Steam customers are buying the non-adult version, they're subsidizing the production costs too.  The 1k adult customers no longer need to pay such high prices just to make the games worth developing / releasing in English.  Eroge companies shouldn't get to have their cake and eat it too.  That's not fair to their most devoted customers.

The growing popularity of Steam as a marketplace for VNs should be leveraged to benefit everyone, and not just the bottomlines of eroge developers and publishers.  Western indie devs get it.  Japanese companies and their English partners don't.

[RikiSanic]

19 minutes ago, Tiagofvarela said:

In what other way would one intend to evaluate the price of any kind of content? Quality?

Many people will say that not getting the original 18+ version will make or break their decision to purchase. Therefore, 18+ content must inherently hold a lot of value to people. It's not unreasonable to assume that this would result in an increase in price—the more people want something, the more they are willing to pay (to a certain extent).

Regardless of whether it makes sense to or not, the stark disparity between both versions will have many questioning the adult content's worth. And if it's in the form of a patch people will attribute that to "paying for DLC that should've always been there", even though that's not really the case.

1 minute ago, Mkilbride said:

I'm just shocked the 18+ Version costs more at all. Every big name VN that released on Steam usually releases 18+ patches for it for free. So the fact this is even a thing, is shocking.

Why, though? This has been going on for a while. And your claim that every big name VN on Steam has released free 18+ patches is straight up false. I don't believe MangaGamer has ever done so, and neither has Sekai Project. Grisaia? No free patch. What big name VNs have given free patches other than perhaps Muv Luv? (And they haven't gotten their patch out yet.)

[Codesterz]

9 hours ago, ChaosRaven said:

Yeah, it's really ridiculous. You don't really lure any (sane) customers to your site with such a price policy.

I'd even go so far to say that Sekai would be even better off, if they offered at least some of their H-patches for a very small price tag like 1 € or even for free. The only condition would be to create an account on their site. That way they could cultivate the soil for future titles. I honestly don't understand why Sekai isn't aware of the value of accounts. They do so many things right, but here... *sigh*.

Larger retail sites use even much more aggressive ways to acquire new customers. Gog and Origin for example give away whole games for free in regular intervals to lure people away from Steam.

Sekai could do a similar thing at least on a smaller scale like 'because 2nd year anniversary' or 'the sky is blue today' you get X for free or dirt cheap from our site if you have an account.

Well I apparently almost missed a shit storm while playing Phantom of the Kill on my phone. This right here is honestly one of the better suggestions I've read. I think something else that would help Denpasoft grow is having some bigger name 18+ only VNs on the site(means no steam version for it). I'm pretty sure someone else mentioned this though. If they want Denpasoft to grow releasing overpriced 18+ patches is not the way to go.

To be honest though I wish Sukai Project would simply not release All Age versions for VNs that only have an adult version in Japan. This in my opinion can be called nothing short of blatant censorship. If they really want to be an All Age VN company, then stop localizing VNs that have an 18+ version in Japan. There are plenty of shitty(my opinion) All Age only titles they can localize and release. They should have aimed to get Island the VN fits them perfectly and yes I am calling Island a shitty VN hate me all you want for it.

[sanahtlig]

10 minutes ago, RikiSanic said:

And your claim that every big name VN on Steam has released free 18+ patches is straight up false. I don't believe MangaGamer has ever done so, and neither has Sekai Project. Grisaia? No free patch. What big name VNs have given free patches other than perhaps Muv Luv? (And they haven't gotten their patch out yet.)

Check the "English original" tab on my censored eroge list.

[knightnightmare]

I don't mind paying a little extra for the 18+ content, however it should not cost as much as the base game does. You pay double the price for Nekopara to have 3 H scenes that's a little ridiculous. If the patches had been 5 bucks instead of 10 I think this wouldn't have been such an issue.

Though I will say it  bothers me far more when VNs are butchered for Steam and no content patch is offered.  I just pass on those in general cause I don't support censorship. 

[solidbatman]

The way I look at it, the 18+ price is the full price of the game. The cheaper all ages version is a discount due to cut content. When both are priced the same, I honestly have a bit of an issue, that the all ages version isn't cheaper. 

[DharmaFreedom]

[Suzu Fanatic]

1 hour ago, solidbatman said:

The way I look at it, the 18+ price is the full price of the game. The cheaper all ages version is a discount due to cut content. When both are priced the same, I honestly have a bit of an issue, that the all ages version isn't cheaper. 

qft (man havent used that for a long time)

[Silvz]

I just don't get some parts on the discussion here. I saw someone saying that it is a problem to take out content from the original game and sell it, but we have to consider that Karakara was not released in Japan before, so they didn't cut anything, the game was created supposed to be split in two versions. It is different from Grisaia [even though the VITA version is also All Ages], since the game was released before with content that doesn't exist at all on the english version.

Also, as solidbatman said, and I'm just going to quote him:

Quote

the 18+ price is the full price of the game. The cheaper all ages version is a discount due to cut content.

I believe this is the case with Karakara. 20$ is the full price of the game, the price it was intended to have. However, since the All Ages has less content, they decreased its price instead of making people pay the same for less.

Also, some were saying that it was bad to pay just 5$ for the game and 10$ for the patch, but this 5$ price is just for this sale, and it will go back up after some time. And have you guys seen the sex scenes from the game? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are fully animated, and pretty well done. They are not selling normal sex scenes we see in every game, they are selling scenes that probably were as expensive to make as the actual game [just an assumption here, but you get the point].

About pricing in general, Clannad was expensive, yes, but to compare it with The Witcher 3 is not fair. Their audience is hugely different, their sales are apart for many thousands, and even though TW3 spent millions to be made, the income it provides is sufficient to pay its costs. Clannad - and all other VNs - don't profit that much, and to put it on sale for 30 dollars would be terrible for Sekai Project.

[sanahtlig]

2 minutes ago, Silvz said:

And have you guys seen the sex scenes from the game? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are fully animated, and pretty well done. They are not selling normal sex scenes we see in every game, they are selling scenes that probably were as expensive to make as the actual game [just an assumption here, but you get the point].

I wouldn't be complaining if I were convinced this was the case both in this game, and in general.

[Mkilbride]

Sex scenes are expensive to make as the entire game? My god. The delusion.

[Silvz]

2 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Sex scenes are expensive to make as the entire game? My god. The delusion.

just an assumption here, but you get the point

[jetpack003]

16 hours ago, ffleader1 said:

He removed the patch and wrote an announcement

if I have to epitomize it: Dovac is an a$$hole

Interesting. At least he did the right thing in the end.

Now all we need is for Dovac to admit his faults and everything will be okay.

[sanahtlig]

2 hours ago, jetpack003 said:

Now all we need is for Dovac to admit his faults and everything will be okay.

Best joke of the day.

...

...oh wait, you were serious.

[ffleader1]

9 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Best joke of the day.

...

...oh wait, were you serious?

Maybe after he exits the market, he will.

 

[jetpack003]

52 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Best joke of the day.

...

...oh wait, were you serious?

Yeah, I was serious.

But I have been around the forums for a while to know that it may not ever happen.

 

That man seems to be too stubborn in what he does...

[tjc2]

I don't mind paying more for the 18+ version, but the way they do it with Grisaia is ridiculous.

Release a game on Steam at all ages, when they haven't even finished translating the 18+ version. After take 3-6 months to release the 18+ version with no discount to people who already purchased on steam.

This is akin to Peter Jackson releasing the Theatrical version of LOTR on Blu Ray and then a year later releasing the extended cut. It is a slimy practice to get a few people to purchase both versions at full price.

 

Edit: What is the regular practice in Japan for All-Ages/Teen versions and 18+ versions as far as pricing?

[sanahtlig]

3 minutes ago, tjc2 said:

Edit: What is the regular practice in Japan for All-Ages/Teen versions and 18+ versions as far as pricing?

I think 6k yen and 8.8k yen are pretty standard for full-length titles.

[tjc2]

Just now, sanahtlig said:

I think 6k yen and 8.8k yen are pretty standard for full-length titles.

Is this release usually simultaneous? I know having them released at separate times is what really annoys me. 

[sanahtlig]

/r/visualnovels, in their great wisdom, have direct-linked to a warez site on the front page (rather than linking somewhere more reasonable... I wonder where?).  But putting this befuddling decision aside, Frontwing itself has stepped into the ring to comment.

Quote

Personally I want to ask a question here: why is there such an ingrained idea of "paying separately for patch = bad"? From my perspective, it seems like the more ideal setup: the full game has a set price (let's say $20), but you can't sell adult content on Steam, so you offer an all ages version there for cheaper (let's say $10), and a patch for the remaining $10 so that people who wanted to buy the game on Steam can still have the full experience. This way, anyone who doesn't care about the adult content can skip it and get a massive discount, and people who do want it are just paying the normal price of the full game. If you go the other route, though, and sell the all-ages version for the full price on Steam and make the patch free, sure it makes life a little easier for people who want the adult content, but then you're removing the benefit of the cheaper price for people who don't care about it.

I understand that it feels like getting "locked out" of content or having content "removed", and that sometimes this content legitimately adds to the story, but the only reason that's happening in the first place is because of Steam policies. Is there just too much of a cognitive link between "two transactions" meaning "paying extra" for it to be thought of as just "buying the full game at regular price"?

I'm not saying any other practices of any given company are good or bad, just talking about the idea of selling patches itself.

 

[Chuee]

1 hour ago, tjc2 said:

Is this release usually simultaneous? I know having them released at separate times is what really annoys me. 

No, there are no all-ages PC releases, only vita versions which usually come anywhere from months later to years later. The delay in release for Grisaia over here is because there's extra work that needs to go into the 18+ release, such as translation stuff. 

[knightnightmare]

They should have prioritized the 18+ version to come out closer to the Steam version judging how well the AA version is doing on right now.
http://steamspy.com/app/345620 

It's things like this is what makes the 18+ users feel like they don't care about them, and honestly they make it sound that way themselves. 

[Mkilbride]

And their biggest market is the 18+ users.  People also don't buy games they see as failures, sales wise. Most people who will buy the Steam, All Ages versions, are fans of the 18+ versions, whom hope a  patch will be coming later. SO if you charge for it, or don't do it, you directly cut into your own sales.

 

Take a page out of CD Projekt Reds handbook. They want the practice of DRM & DLC to go away. That has been their motto since TW1EE.  Where has that gotten a small Indie dev studio? Well, they now own GoG. They produced The Witcher 3, which has sold over 10M units, and is the highest rated RPG of all time on Metacritic. So it seems that strategy works out for them.

[Darklord Rooke]

14 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Take a page out of CD Projekt Reds handbook. They want the practice of DRM & DLC to go away. That has been their motto since TW1EE.  Where has that gotten a small Indie dev studio? Well, they now own GoG. They produced The Witcher 3, which has sold over 10M units, and is the highest rated RPG of all time on Metacritic. So it seems that strategy works out for them.

The Witcher 3 is successful because of its scope, not because of its marketing philosophies. Bethesda is more successful than CD Projekt yet sell DLC like water (horse armour anyone?) DLC won't ever 'go away' because the industry is moving away from distributing a large lump of content (finalised game) which is then bought in a single transaction. This isn't the 90s anymore, the distribution of content through digital means is a thing and therefore will be taken advantage of. The idea of updating content, or adding content, to a package readily is too convenient to ignore.

Also, CD Projekt started off owning GOG (localising games like BG2 to the Polish audience IIRC) and then branched out into dev work. Not the other way around.

[Mkilbride]

1 minute ago, Rooke said:

The Witcher 3 is successful because of its scope, not because of its marketing philosophies. Bethesda is more successful than CD Projekt yet sell DLC like water (horse armour anyone?) DLC won't ever 'go away' because the industry is moving away from distributing a large lump of content (finalised game) which is then bought in a single transaction. This isn't the 90s anymore, the distribution of content through digital means is a thing and therefore will be taken advantage of. The idea of updating content, or adding content, to a package readily is too convenient to ignore.

Also, CD Projekt started off owning GOG (localising games like BG2 to the Polish audience IIRC) and then branched out into dev work. Not the other way around.

Ok, so I see that on wiki, then why where there a dozen news articles about CD Projecft Red buying GoG back in 2011? 

 

All I am saying is now that CD Projekt is considered "The Standard by which all developers are judged by" these days, in recent articles, due to their habit of releasing hours of free content for their games, which earns them nothing - short term, but long term, it created them a huge fanbase which made them successful. They almost had to file for Bankruptcy with TW2. But it endeared the community to them, and now they're a "Huge" studio.  Still Indie though, they self-publish. 

 

Regardless, this argument is going nowhere. It's just too different to compare, our thoughts and the markets. I for one don't believe a 18+ patch should cost even a dime more.