Corona Blossom released!

[Fred the Barber]

To be clear, I didn't intend to blame any particular person in the chain of producing the translation. I am criticizing the product, not the process. The product, the Corona Blossom translation, is a bad translation, for the reasons I posted above. So now, let's talk process:

There are many ways to get to a good translation. The current VN translation scene, especially fan translation, almost exclusively follows a strategy of having translators who know JP well and focus completely on correctly literally translating the Japanese into Engrish and then leans heavily on editors to turn Engrish into English. That is probably a phenomenon completely unique to niche video game translation, mostly but not exclusively VN fan translation. It's not even true of top-tier mainstream JP games; people don't talk about Alexander O. Smith's editor, and they don't call him an editor. He's a video game translator, and a damn good one. He didn't get that reputation by literally translating JP to EN and then letting an editor turn the result into something people really enjoyed reading.

There's a reason for the difference: it takes a lot more talent, knowledge, and dedication than most of us in this community have to do both sides of the translation well, especially at the pay rates you can achieve for doing good work in VN translation. People who can do this are rare, respected, and are widely talked about in the community as a result. You know their their names because they can do both. But on the flip side, the demand for translations is high enough that we can't really afford to wait for those scarce resources to take care of everything.

So a lot of work gets done the hard way. Exchanging all the necessary context and fixing all the inevitable misunderstandings between translators and editors takes a lot of time. This separation of responsibilities is probably a huge contributor to the various issues with fan translations (alongside other reasons, many of them undoubtedly more important, of course). But I don't really see any way around doing things the hard way like this, other than for editors to spend years studying Japanese or for translators to learn an editor's skills. Probably neither of those is happening any time soon.

[Chuee]

Meh, the screenshots posted don't even seem terrible to me, nor did I think the translation of the game was bad. If I were to stop and document things like this throughout every single translation, official or not, I've played, I doubt there'd be a single one that didn't at least have a few of those issues. 

[Fred the Barber]

9 hours ago, Chuee said:

Meh, the screenshots posted don't even seem terrible to me, nor did I think the translation of the game was bad. If I were to stop and document things like this throughout every single translation, official or not, I've played, I doubt there'd be a single one that didn't at least have a few of those issues. 

"Bad" may be an overstatement on my part, but I had the luxury of comparing it to Karakara, since I played them both within a day of each other. It's like night and day. Karakara's translation is really good. If I'd seen these kinds of problems there, I would've said the same things about it, but I didn't see them. It was a lovely read.

MangaGamer and Sekai Project both have stepped up their game on translation quality, recently, especially for high-profile games. Degica's Muv Luv TL is getting a lot of praise, and though I haven't played it yet, from everything I see it deserves it. Those guys are raising the bar for professional translation. The Corona Blossom TL is a clear step lower in quality.

[Vorathiel]

On 8/2/2016 at 4:34 PM, Fred the Barber said:

No, don't misunderstand. It's not that I want them to write solid prose. I just want a translation, not a copy-edited Google Translate transcript. Here's four screenshots I saved of bad translation. I have several more, taken before I gave up on collecting them. If I wanted to read it and screenshot style nits, I could undoubtedly find dozens; prose isn't the problem here. Bad translation is.

  Hide contents

There are two really obvious problems with this one line: 1) it preserves the JP tendency to state things as a direct quotation which aren't actually a quotation and should instead be delivered as a description, and 2) it uses the phrase "read the mood", an insufficiently-translated phrase that should be killed with fire and replaced with something meaningful to an English speaker every time it occurs.

 

"Yoohoo" is parroting the Japanese word, rather than attempting to translate the greeting.

 

"Move your body" is another one from my shitlist of insufficiently-translated Japanese. It's basically nonsense in English, and has a really simple, natural translation: "exercise". For the love of all that is holy, please learn the word exercise and use it when translating that phrase. Or find a more colorful way or more situationally appropriate way to say it, whatever. Just don't say "move your body" in this context - it makes it sound like someone's manipulating a marionette.

 

Now there's an analogy I can relate to.

 

I just can't agree with you. At all. If what you're saying means 'good editing', then give me bad editing all the time, please.

First screen - perfectly fine line. The way she's speaking, she's normally accenting the 'quotation' she's using. Because these subtitles are exactly that - subttitles, not a self contained prose, so it's perfectly fine to depict in english text, what she said.

Second - I heard 'yoohoo' many, many, many times. In english, polish, japanesse media. Normal, silly, 'cartoonish' even way of greeting someone. And I bet she wasn't speaking clear word 'yoohoo', I bet she was rather making a noise in form of her 'non word' greeting, which could be transcribed as 'yoohoo'.

Third - Where do you live? Under a rock or somehting? https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=move+your+body Perfectly normal phrase, common even, I would dare to say.

Fourth - I don't know what do you mean. Is it an ironic joke? Or are you just saying that 'there are no old dudes munching on dried squids in america, so I don't want to read that, give me the >avocado munchng old hobo<, because western people should be able to easily relate'? If the second, then I must say... Why. Why do you want to change what is perfectlyfine in the original. Change for a sake of changes. For the sake of Americans, who only knows their hamburgers. Maybe all VNs should went full Phoenix Wright, or Brok and his donuts? Is that what you want?

 

[Zenophilious]

1 hour ago, Vorathiel said:

-snip-

Vorathiel, you do realize that a lot of people here really don't like literal translations?  There's a reason why we shit on ixrec so much.  When you literally translate things from Japanese to English, a lot of phrases just don't make sense anymore ("I'm a feminist" from Comyu comes to mind).  A fair number of people here think it's better to alter the meaning slightly in order for the passage to make a lot more sense than it would if it was translated literally, a la koestl's translation of Grisaia no Kajitsu.

I agree with Fred on this one.  It sounds incredibly unnatural the way it's written, and I'm a native English speaker.  If they were going for a natural-sounding line there, then they utterly failed.  Part of the point of translating something from another language to English is to make it read well in English.  When I read the Witcher books, I don't notice bits of Polish sentence structure and grammatical quirks because they're making a product for English-reading consumers and kept that in mind when translating.  Leaving bits in that don't read well in English isn't a good idea.

Do you actually know that she wasn't saying "yoohoo"?  Because from the way you worded it, it sounds like you don't, and are just making an assumption with no supporting evidence of any kind.  That's a really strange thing to do in an argument.

"Move your body", while correct, doesn't tend to be used in that way too often anymore, at least with people I know in California and the US in general.  People almost always say "exercise" or "work out".  Searching the phrase on YouTube in no way proves that it's a "common" phrase.  I really don't know what you were getting at there, other than proving that it exists, which everyone already knows.  The only things I commonly hear that phrase in are club songs and EDM, and exercise videos from the '80s.

I personally think it's better to replace analogies like "old man munching on a squid" with something that comes off as a lot less odd for people in western countries.  I don't believe the comparison to 4Kids is really just, considering the level of censorship and absolutely absurd rewriting they tend to prefer.  There's a difference between changing something because very few people will understand it and the sentence will fall flat, and wiping every mention of Japanese culture, language and cuisine from a piece of media in order to pretend like it was never Japanese in the first place.

There's no reason to be so hostile about this, you're coming off as immature and rude.

[Vorathiel]

If I came across as hostile, then I apologize I didn't wanted to. As you cleearly see I'm far from native-level of english and subtle 'mood changes' tend to get lost when I'm writting, or sometimes even reading.

About 'yoohoo' - yes, I have not played it, I just assumed. But if it was some japanesse 'gibberish' like (I'm making that up) f.e 'ueueueueue' as a form a greeting, then 'yoohoo' is even a localisation, because everybody in western culture can recognize 'yoohoo' as a greeting. But Fred said that it was parotting japanesse word. 'Yoohoo' is not a japanesse ('japanesse only' at last) word. It's international form of cartoonish greeting. So nothing bad in it.

'Move your body' - okay, it's just coming up with best possible word, so move your body is probably not that. But still -it's correct, ergo - it's nitpicking.

Analogies - I just want to know what would be more pleasant for you or Fred. If not munching on a squid, then what? Also - old man munching on a dried squid is really graphic description, everybody can imagine that. And story takes place in japan, so there is no need to change that at all.

[Darbury]

42 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

If not munching on a squid, then what? Also - old man munching on a dried squid is really graphic description, everybody can imagine that.

How about "a squid munching on a dried old man"? Now there's a description everyone can relate to. 

[Darklord Rooke]

3 hours ago, Vorathiel said:

Analogies - I just want to know what would be more pleasant for you or Fred. If not munching on a squid, then what? Also - old man munching on a dried squid is really graphic description, everybody can imagine that. And story takes place in japan, so there is no need to change that at all.

Fred exaggerated the issues with some of these, but there are issues there. 

Most of my problem with the first line comes from "read the mood", which made my nose scrunch up. Even though it's an acceptable phrase grammatically it doesn't mean it's an appropriate phrase in that situation. It actually sounds foreign because it's very unlikely to be said by a girl like Shino in that situation. Or even her Dad. In fact, google "read the mood" and you have business applications, political applications, notice no teenagers on facebook saying the damn phrase. Each section of society has their own little lexicons.

The result is it sounds completely unnatural. Very foreign. It's the worst line there, TBH. Definitely not "perfectly fine". It's "perfectly fine" in a grammatical sense, but writing isn't about grammar. 

"Move your body" is similar but not as bad. Look it up on google and try and find a place where it's used in a colloquial fashion by someone the age of Kumiko. I'm perfectly fine with it, but I'm quite old and I've been exposed to fitness videos with people shouting "Move your body! Come on! Move it!" I never heard my friends tell me that when I was young, though. And if they did I would have laughed at them.

It's about tone. Do you want her to sound like a cheesy, fake fitness instructor on TV?

4th line, old guy munching on squid, is about the image conveyed to the audience. What's the problem with that line? In the Western world there's no difference between "old guy munching on squid" and "old guy munching on donuts." Or "old guy munching on fish". Or "old guy munching on a sandwich". I assume the "dried squid" part was deliberately inserted to fashion a specific image, but because this image relates to culture, one we're not familiar with, the whole image gets lost on a Western audience.

Writing is never about plunking down grammatically correct sentences, and neither is translation. 

[Darklord Rooke]

That's not to say there isn't a problem with the 1st line direct quoting the way it did, but I don't have the energy to get into that xD. It's more subtle. It's not really done in English the way the Japanese do, but whether you keep it in translations ... that discussion could be a draining one. Fred can talk about it if he wants.

[Mr Poltroon]

On 02/08/2016 at 11:26 PM, Decay said:

Yeah, sorry, I just cannot agree with you on any level here. Literal translations should be eradicated. If you prefer them, just learn Japanese to get the most literal translation of them all!

I'm not exaggerating.

Yeah, sorry, I just cannot not disagree with you on any level here. Liberal translations should be eradicated. If you prefer them, just read an English novel to get the best translation of them all!

I'm very much exaggerating.

[Suzu Fanatic]

So, just to throw my wrench into the mix, should we have all Japanese names changed to more familiar names? Tohsaka Rin should actually be called Mary Sue - Tokisakaas Reiji as John Doe? After all, the average non-Japanese reader will not be used to those styles of names - and will even confuse one character for another, from lack of familiarity. (I've actually seen people do that, when surfing around in Dangaronpa threads)

 

Obviously I'm using an over-the-top example, but take the "anti literal" stance far enough, and that's what you will end up with.

For my part, I prefer a more "accurate" translation, but I also want it to make sense and flow well - even if it means some re-invention when translated. It "is" o.k. for people to choose a moderate stance, you don't have to favor one extreme or another.

 

EDIT: 'Read the mood" is fine - maybe not where you are, but it was something that would have been said/make sense where I live, even among teens. :fiteme:

EDIT2: Literals, Reformists, and Moderates - we have the makings of a political system, ha~

[Vorathiel]

2 minutes ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

For my part, I prefer a more "accurate" translation, but I also want it to make sense and flow well - even if it means some re-invention when translated. It "is" o.k. for people to choose a moderate stance, you don't have to favor one extreme or another.

Same here. Just a happy middle ground. Not to lose cultural references, not adding english 'memes'. Just made the text simply flow and everything will be fine.  

I actually enjoy many 'liberal' translations (Grisaia text, while contain horribly written story, was flowing pretty nicely), as far as I don't know what was in original version. I'm just kind of guy who don't like unnecessary changes. "Better is an antagonist for Good." As they sometimes say where I live.  

[Chuee]

5 hours ago, Zenophilious said:

Do you actually know that she wasn't saying "yoohoo"?  Because from the way you worded it, it sounds like you don't, and are just making an assumption with no supporting evidence of any kind.  That's a really strange thing to do in an argument.

"Move your body", while correct, doesn't tend to be used in that way too often anymore, at least with people I know in California and the US in general.  People almost always say "exercise" or "work out".  Searching the phrase on YouTube in no way proves that it's a "common" phrase.  I really don't know what you were getting at there, other than proving that it exists, which everyone already knows.  The only things I commonly hear that phrase in are club songs and EDM, and exercise videos from the '80s.

I personally think it's better to replace analogies like "old man munching on a squid" with something that comes off as a lot less odd for people in western countries.  I don't believe the comparison to 4Kids is really just, considering the level of censorship and absolutely absurd rewriting they tend to prefer.  There's a difference between changing something because very few people will understand it and the sentence will fall flat, and wiping every mention of Japanese culture, language and cuisine from a piece of media in order to pretend like it was never Japanese in the first place.

There's no reason to be so hostile about this, you're coming off as immature and rude.

1. The word she says is やほー, which is just a slangy, friendly type of greeting. Terrible translators put it is as yahoo, yoohoo is something I've seen it translated to often, and while I don't really care for it that much (I'd never use that word period), it's not wrong or necessarily bad. 

2. I hear it plenty enough to justify it being used. The fact that one may be slightly more common than the other doesn't mean the other should never ever, ever be used. People say all sorts of different things.

All in all, I feel like most of this discussion is pointless to begin with. Why are people even talking about literal translations vs liberal? The translation for this was actually fairly liberal despite what anyone says. One or two examples don't really change this fact. 

[Asimmacovski]

I looked for an adult digital release but I can't find anything. So it's either steam all ages + patch or physical adult version?

I really wish they would at least sell the adult version on DLsite since they are selling the patch there too.

[SpeedBeatz]

12 hours ago, Asimmacovski said:

I looked for an adult digital release but I can't find anything. So it's either steam all ages + patch or physical adult version?

I really wish they would at least sell the adult version on DLsite since they are selling the patch there too.

Adult digital is coming soon (later this month), the Steam version was basically an "early" release/everything else is releasing at the same time as the Japanese physical version.

There's a breakdown of retailers here, and more will be added as they're confirmed!  (The 18+ digital version will be available on DLsite ecchi too, small mistake that'll be fixed soon.)

[Asimmacovski]

1 hour ago, SpeedBeatz said:

Adult digital is coming soon (later this month), the Steam version was basically an "early" release/everything else is releasing at the same time as the Japanese physical version.

There's a breakdown of retailers here, and more will be added as they're confirmed!  (The 18+ digital version will be available on DLsite ecchi too, small mistake that'll be fixed soon.)

Yeah I asked Frontwing on twitter and this is what they answered: The Japanese digital release later this month will include the 18+ content and have full dual language support! However, it will only be available from Japanese digital storefronts; you can see the breakdown here... and so on.

[SpeedBeatz]

26 minutes ago, Asimmacovski said:

Yeah I asked Frontwing on twitter and this is what they answered: The Japanese digital release later this month will include the 18+ content and have full dual language support! However, it will only be available from Japanese digital storefronts; you can see the breakdown here... and so on.

Haha yeah that was me sorry, I thought it might've been the same person asking but the usernames were different so I responded to you on both just in case (though after I answered on Twitter I double-checked and found out that yeah it should be available on DLsite ecchi too when it comes out, and some more stores should be announced soon as well, so answering twice worked out anyway).

[Asimmacovski]

Just now, SpeedBeatz said:

Haha yeah that was me sorry, I thought it might've been the same person but the usernames were different so I responded to you on both just in case (though after I answered on Twitter I double-checked and found out that yeah it should be available on DLsite ecchi, and some more stores should be announced soon as well).

It actually is the same person, I was just sleeping at the time when it was answered.

Thank you very much for the answering. ^^

[littleshogun]

Didn't care too much for the translation and 18+ content to be honest here, and maybe I'll play this later if I had time here. Oh, and also my look to Corona Blossom here.

[SpeedBeatz]

I don't really want to bump that other thread, so I'll just post it here: our Indiegogo for Corona Blossom Vol.2 has launched, check it out if you're interested!

[littleshogun]

Good luck, or I should said congratulations here for reaching the goal very fast here. Granted the goal here was very small though (Only 10,000), and I'll keep my eyes on this Corona Blossom project here in the future.

[ShinRaikdou]

Vol. 2 has been released.

So, how is it ? Better ?

 

at least it turned out free for me (thanks to metal card drop), but i want someone opinion before play it.