Can somebody explain to me why is this bad [tracing]

[Funnerific]

I'd like to take a moment here to express my respect and condolences to the fuwanovel moderation staff. Know that your efforts at self-control aren't going unnoticed.

[Nekolover]

Just now, Funnerific said:

I'd like to take a moment here to express my respect and condolences to the fuwanovel moderation staff. Know that your efforts at self-control aren't going unnoticed.

Apologies for asking a legit question I have. 

[Nosebleed]

6 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

This is a pain.   I understand the below part of what you are saying.  The above part is where I want to ask something.   You are telling me that something like eating ice cream while smiling is copyright? That kissing on the bathroom in that position that I have seen countless times on porn is copyright?  Yes I do see the tracing but that something that is normal for people to do. So is copyright because somebody took some photos or made some drawing before anybody else?  

No, I'm not telling you THE ACTION is copyrighted, I'm telling you THAT IMAGE, with THOSE EXACT PIXELS, is copyrighted.

You can draw somebody eating an ice cream anytime, you just can't draw somebody eating an ice cream EXACTLY the same way as somebody else drew somebody eating an ice cream.

Fun fact for you: almost all geographical maps are different from each other in some minor way to avoid copyright infrigement.

[tymmur]

13 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

Which is? That I am being compared to a criminal?

No. I compared you to somebody, who had no understanding of ownership and rights to ownership. Considering that you still don't get why tracing is wrong, I will still claim you fail to understand ownership of images and what it implies.

[KuroganeHomura]

There's something to be said about the similarities between sampling (music) and tracing. Both cases can go from "uses a tiny part" to "almost looks/sounds like the original". Where does this something like this fall on that spectrum? Dunno, I can't draw for shit, but it does look pretty different to me, basic pose being the same notwithstanding.

But then I quite like the series, so I'm terribly biased here.

Edit: Another thing to consider: Are the artists who's works he used losing any money because of it? Don't think they are.

[Nekolover]

Just now, Nosebleed said:

No, I'm not telling you THE ACTION is copyrighted, I'm telling you THAT IMAGE, with THOSE EXACT PIXELS, is copyrighted.

You can draw somebody eating an ice cream anytime, you just can't draw somebody eating an ice cream EXACTLY the same way as somebody else drew somebody eating an ice cream.

Fun fact for you: maps are ALL different from each other in some minor way to avoid copyright infrigement.

 

Well, nice knowing I going to die for using a map.   I don't see how is the same. I see the tracing but is drawn. You say I can draw that same thing except it can't match the position?  Or I can but it must somehow no be the same even though is just a position.  You know what forget about it.  This is making me wish I was rich and bought out all the artists and made their work available in the public domain. 

[Nosebleed]

7 minutes ago, KuroganeHomura said:

There's something to be said about the similarities between sampling (music) and tracing. Both cases can go from "uses a tiny part" to "almost looks/sounds like the original". Where does this something like this fall on that spectrum?

Actually, that's not a gray area either. For example, Skrillex recently got into some controversy for alledgedly using copyrighted music clips, but he actually debunked those claims soon enough.

Generally speaking though, music artists don't have a lot of reason to go after people that make remixes or use small music samples because they're usually indie producers that will not hurt their sales n any meaningful way, similar to how the doujin market works in Japan.

However, if somebody was making major sales while using music samples from other artists without permission, you best be sure they'd be receiving a lawsuit soon enough.

The only things that usually escape the law are music parodies, which are protected under fair use law since a parody alters the original intent of the song.

[Nekolover]

2 minutes ago, tymmur said:

No. I compared you to somebody, who had no understanding of ownership and rights to ownership. Considering that you still don't get why tracing is wrong, I will still claim you fail to understand ownership of images and what it implies.

 

I understand that claiming say picture or art is wrong if wasn't made by you.   But all he did was trace and change the art style and designs a lot. The only same thing about it is the position. Which is ridiculous to me.   Apologies for thinking differently. 

[Nosebleed]

3 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

Well, nice knowing I going to die for using a map. 

No, you're not going to die for using a map, you would simply get into trouble for publishing somebody else's map and calling it your own.

3 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

I don't see how is the same. I see the tracing but is drawn. You say I can draw that same thing except it can't match the position?  Or I can but it must somehow no be the same even though is just a position.

You can draw somebody in a similar way, and even in the same pose, just not in such a way that when you justapose the two images, they basically line up perfectly to one another. That's the whole point I was trying to make.
You can draw somebody eating an ice cream in that same pose all by yourself, you just can't literally trace lines over it and then calling that drawing your own.

1 minute ago, Nekolover said:

 The only same thing about it is the position. Which is ridiculous to me.   Apologies for thinking differently. 

It's not THE POSITION that's copyrighted, it's the lines used to make that position that are. Again, those PIXELS are copyrighted, not the ACTION/POSE.

 

[KuroganeHomura]

Just now, Nosebleed said:

Actually, that's not a gray area either.

There's the legal aspect and then there's the rest. I can't really speak to the former (although I recall depending on the specific country some of it is indeed legal, very much depending on how long the sample is), but as far as the rest goes... Well, I listen to a lot of music making heavy use of samples, so I'm obviously biased there, too.

Still, I just can't see it as a big deal. A few people mentioned scientific works - but in those cases, the important part is not whether you're using someone else's work as the basis of your own, it's whether or not you indicate that fact through proper citation. Which makes me ask: Would sampling and tracing be ok as long the result is sufficiently different from the original and credit is given to the creator of the original? And bear in mind you don't need to ask permission to cite scientific works.

[Nekolover]

1 minute ago, Nosebleed said:

No, you're not going to die for using a map, you would simply get into trouble for publishing somebody else's map and calling it your own.

You can draw somebody in a similar way, and even in the same pose, just not in such a way that when you justapose the two images, they basically line up perfectly to one another. That's the whole point I was trying to make.
You can draw somebody eating an ice cream in that same pose all by yourself, you just can't literally trace lines over it and then calling that drawing your own.

It's not THE POSITION that's copyrighted, it's the lines used to make that position that are. Again, those PIXELS are copyrighted, not the ACTION/POSE.

 

 

1

That really petty.  So , in other words, avoid the lines regardless of everything else being different because  fuck the art style, design, background, purpose and every other difference.     Pixels are copyright? That stupid .

[Nekolover]

3 minutes ago, KuroganeHomura said:

There's the legal aspect and then there's the rest. I can't really speak to the former (although I recall depending on the specific country some of it is indeed legal, very much depending on how long the sample is), but as far as the rest goes... Well, I listen to a lot of music making heavy use of samples, so I'm obviously biased there, too.

Still, I just can't see it as a big deal. A few people mentioned scientific works - but in those cases, the important part is not whether you're using someone else's work as the basis of your own, it's whether or not you indicate that fact through proper citation. Which makes me ask: Would sampling and tracing be ok as long the result is sufficiently different from the original and credit is given to the creator of the original? And bear in mind you don't need to ask permission to cite scientific works.

 

 

That would truly make this whole situation for me be less stupid and petty.  I think it is a good idea. 

[iamnoob]

1 minute ago, Nosebleed said:

No, you're not going to die for using a map, you would simply get into trouble for publishing somebody else's map and calling it your own.

You can draw somebody in a similar way, and even in the same pose, just not in such a way that when you justapose the two images, they basically line up perfectly to one another. That's the whole point I was trying to make.
You can draw somebody eating an ice cream in that same pose all by yourself, you just can't literally trace lines over it and then calling that drawing your own.

It's not THE POSITION that's copyrighted, it's the lines used to make that position that are. Again, those PIXELS are copyrighted, not the ACTION/POSE.

 

 

This is what we have been trying to say simplified.

The POSE is owned by no one and can never be owned by anyone. But the fact that it is so clearly traced meaning he simple copied it with no effort in deciding how to model his character means he is in a way stealing part of the original artist's hard work or having to draw and redraw and redraw just to get his character to look right.

Meanwhile, the NGNL artist took the easy way out and traced over this. 

YES he made a lot of changes and YES he made a lot of effort in changing it to fit his character as well as drawing his character's appearances.

HOWEVER, he did not spend any effort in designing the pose.

You can perhaps look at it this way. Drawing consists of many aspects, pose, style, shading ect. The fact is, while other parts of his drawing are his own, he still stole the ONE OF THE ASPECTS of the another person's drawing thus diminishing him.

[iamnoob]

12 minutes ago, KuroganeHomura said:

There's the legal aspect and then there's the rest. I can't really speak to the former (although I recall depending on the specific country some of it is indeed legal, very much depending on how long the sample is), but as far as the rest goes... Well, I listen to a lot of music making heavy use of samples, so I'm obviously biased there, too.

Still, I just can't see it as a big deal. A few people mentioned scientific works - but in those cases, the important part is not whether you're using someone else's work as the basis of your own, it's whether or not you indicate that fact through proper citation. Which makes me ask: Would sampling and tracing be ok as long the result is sufficiently different from the original and credit is given to the creator of the original? And bear in mind you don't need to ask permission to cite scientific works.

But you still need to cite it. And science is much more different than are, even in science you can't just take another person's data if their research is not fully published. Additionally, when you cite the works its just the data you are citing. I would't compare them. Science and art are very different in many ways. Also, you cite them not only to give them credit, you cite it to prove that your thesis is correct.

[Nekolover]

Just now, iamnoob said:

 

This is what we have been trying to say simplified.

The POSE is owned by no one and can never be owned by anyone. But the fact that it is so clearly traced meaning he simple copied it with no effort in deciding how to model his character means he is in a way stealing part of the original artist's hard work or having to draw and redraw and redraw just to get his character to look right.

Meanwhile, the NGNL artist took the easy way out and traced over this. 

YES he made a lot of changes and YES he made a lot of effort in changing it to fit his character as well as drawing his character's appearances.

HOWEVER, he did not spend any effort in designing the pose.

You can perhaps look at it this way. Drawing consists of many aspects, pose, style, shading ect. The fact is, while other parts of his drawing are his own, he still stole the ONE OF THE ASPECTS of the another person's drawing thus diminishing him.

 

Listing you are going to want to bash my head in with a hammer for me saying this.  THAT REASON IS STUPID AND PARDON MY FRENCH. THAT IS FUCKING PETTY.   ULTRA PETTY.    So the issue is that he trace over somebody else position or stance  to use a position he found perfect for what he wanted to create.  Yeah no I get what you are saying but is a stupid  reasoning for me. 

[DharmaFreedom]

[DarkZedge]

Just now, DharmaFreedom said:

Couldn't agree more  

[iamnoob]

7 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

Listing you are going to want to bash my head in with a hammer for me saying this.  THAT REASON IS STUPID AND PARDON MY FRENCH. THAT IS FUCKING PETTY.   ULTRA PETTY.    So the issue is that he trace over somebody else position or stance  to use a position he found perfect for what he wanted to create.  Yeah no I get what you are saying but is a stupid  reasoning for me. 

That is perfectly fine. That's an artist's inspiration. So what should he do? He should probably try to mimic the pose. "copy the idea " if you will, to his own style. The problem comes with the tracing where is blatantly steals the original artist's effort. 

Nosebleed senpai halp meh.

 

Anyone else want a shot?

[Nekolover]

Just now, iamnoob said:

That is perfectly fine. That's an artist's inspiration. So what should he do? He should probably try to mimic the pose. "copy the idea " if you will, to his own style. The problem comes with the tracing where is blatantly steals the original artist's effort. 

 

 

Anyone else want a shot?

 

Stealing such a strong word for tracing that hurt nobody other than some weird shit people invented. 

[Nekolover]

2 minutes ago, DharmaFreedom said:

 

So where that from? 

[solidbatman]

2 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

Stealing such a strong word for tracing that hurt nobody other than some weird shit people invented. 

Remember that one time that I said your personal opinion has no bearing on the law? You can think the law is stupid, outdated, silly, horrible, or any other synonym of bad. That doesn't change the fact that the way the laws are written, it is viewed, and treated as stolen property. End of discussion, unless you intend to discuss the morality of the issue, which is a whole other can of worms that I could care less about.  

[DharmaFreedom]

1 minute ago, Nekolover said:

where that from? 

Puchimas!: Petit iDOLM@STER (PUCHIM@S)

[Nekolover]

Just now, solidbatman said:

Remember that one time that I said your personal opinion has no bearing on the law? You can think the law is stupid, outdated, silly, horrible, or any other synonym of bad. That doesn't change the fact that the way the laws are written, it is viewed, and treated as stolen property. End of discussion, unless you intend to discuss the morality of the issue, which is a whole other can of worms that I could care less about.  

 

I think I been very clear about this being about the morality of it.  The law is the law.  I got not time for changing stupid laws. 

[Nosebleed]

Here's as simple as I can make it.

This is my original character, Minako-chan (do not steal):

I put many hours of effort into it. I even signed it to make sure people know it's mine. I completely came up with it myself using my own brain.

However, one day I'm walking across the street and I see a magazine that's running this new battle manga whose protagonist is this girl called Konami-chan

It's clearly based off of my original character since the lines used for the body pose are the exact same, but the magazine never asked me for permission to use my work as a foundation.

That makes me and Minako-chan very sad

And that's why tracing is bad in a nutshell.

[solidbatman]

1 minute ago, Nosebleed said:

Here's as simple as I can make it.

This is my original character, Minako-chan (do not steal):

I put many hours of effort into it. I even signed it to make sure people know it's mine. I completely came up with it myself using my own brain.

However, one day I'm walking across the street and I see a magazine that's running this new battle manga whose protagonist is this girl called Konami-chan

It's clearly based off of my original character since the lines used for the body pose are the exact same, but the magazine never asked me for permission to use my work as a foundation.

That makes me and Minako-chan very sad

And that's why tracing is bad in a nutshell.

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