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The House in Fata Morgana Review Discussion


solidbatman

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I loved it, and I had the same problems, mostly with the music. That song Nellie "sings" on the first chapter was so distracting and loud that I could not read it and thought of stalling the game. However, everything worked out fine and I finished reading it.

The biggest issue with the pacing is near the end, when the story starts to lose its inicial boost. After the first major reveal, everything gets slower, almost stopping.

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I don't understand how the story is supposed to drag out in the end, I mean, sure it's a

 

flashback fest, but the flashback themselves are rather well paced (Michel's was delightful to read and those portaits were absolutely beautiful). And the flashback about Morgana is the best of them all, not only are the stakes high but it also boasts good comedy. It might be frustrating to have flashbacks thrown at your face when you want the "main story" to keep going but they are nonetheless necessary to the plot and a pleasure to read once you're really into it. Imo, the further you read, the better Fata Morgana is. [/spoiler]

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2 minutes ago, Nerathim said:

I don't understand how the story is supposed to drag out in the end, I mean, sure it's a

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flashback fest, but the flashback themselves are rather well paced (Michel's was delightful to read and those portaits were absolutely beautiful). And the flashback about Morgana is the best of them all, not only are the stakes high but it also boasts good comedy. It might be frustrating to have flashbacks thrown at your face when you want the "main story" to keep going but they are nonetheless necessary to the plot and a pleasure to read once you're really into it. Imo, the further you read, the better Fata Morgana is. [/spoiler]

The finale was well done, but that Final Door was tough to get through, despite its content being very good. 

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Good review, I guess I should really finish Fata Morgana now.

The "prologue" chapters were definitely the best parts of Fata Morgana for me, that's where the tragedy is in it's finest, portraying different shades of humanity with brutal honesty.
The rest of the story (for what I've read), not as good. Pacing bogs, the main characters are pretty uninteresting and it made me feel like I was reading stories I've already read. The writing itself isn't that captivating either, which makes it kind of annoying to read at times.

Fata Morgana is still pretty good VN I think, but not really my cup of tea.

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3 hours ago, Nerathim said:

I don't understand how the story is supposed to drag out in the end, I mean, sure it's a

The technique you specified in your spoiler tag is an info-dump technique. It can be used well, but often (especially in anime and some VNs) is used poorly. While I haven't read Fata, and I probably never will, Milestone One (for example) used it in such a way as to kill off all mystery about a certain character and to kill the pacing of the first episode. It's so often used poorly, it's one of those techniques writers are told to 'beware' of.

While the plot may demand certain information be revealed to the reader, that by itself doesn't justify the use of any technique - the HOW and the WHEN are up to the writer. If it's revealed poorly then a credible defence ISN'T 'well, it needed to be revealed'. Reading Bats' review, the use of the technique in question sounds lazy and tedious for the reader.

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39 minutes ago, Rooke said:

The technique you specified in your spoiler tag is an info-dump technique. It can be used well, but often (especially in anime and some VNs) is used poorly. While I haven't read Fata, and I probably never will, Milestone One (for example) used it in such a way as to kill off all mystery about a certain character and to kill the pacing of the first episode. It's so often used poorly, it's one of those techniques writers are told to 'beware' of.

While the plot may demand certain information be revealed to the reader, that by itself doesn't justify the use of any technique - the HOW and the WHEN are up to the writer. If it's revealed poorly then a credible defence ISN'T 'well, it needed to be revealed'. Reading Bats' review, the use of the technique in question sounds lazy and tedious for the reader.

 

That's not really fair of you to claim that, since, as you said, you didn't read Fata Morgana and can't pinpoint anything concrete. I'm not saying that every single writing technique, as tedious for the reader as it can be, is justified as long as it's for the sake of the plot. In that particular case, I don't think it was used badly, at least it didn't feel that way at all (and I am rather sensible to pacing in general, given my short attention span). The story puts a big emphasis on the idea that people never act out of ill will (at least never totally). The frequent changes of perspective and the numerous flashbacks are necessary to the main thematic in order for it to be adressed effectively. Why? Because unlike the standard use of flashback in VNs, they're not here to reveal anything particularly novel in the grand scheme of things that could have been told in some other, more entertaining, way. They're mainly used in order to develop an emotional closeness between the character and the reader as you are put in the said character's shoes. Imo, the flashbacks did well at what they wanted to do : bringing out, in a very concrete way, the context that led a character to act in one particular way. (that is often already known to the reader, even if only partially).

And to be honest, Fata Morgana revolves a LOT around many kinds of "flashback", a very conscious choice since they're part of, easily, 95% of the script if we had to cut it in parts. In that way it feels really consistent and coherent.

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16 minutes ago, Onodera Punpun said:

who thought using "out of 5" score system for the reviews was a good idea?

Nearly everyone on the forums. 

 

3 hours ago, Nerathim said:

 

That's not really fair of you to claim that, since, as you said, you didn't read Fata Morgana and can't pinpoint anything concrete. I'm not saying that every single writing technique, as tedious for the reader as it can be, is justified as long as it's for the sake of the plot. In that particular case, I don't think it was used badly, at least it didn't feel that way at all (and I am rather sensible to pacing in general, given my short attention span). The story puts a big emphasis on the idea that people never act out of ill will (at least never totally). The frequent changes of perspective and the numerous flashbacks are necessary to the main thematic in order for it to be adressed effectively. Why? Because unlike the standard use of flashback in VNs, they're not here to reveal anything particularly novel in the grand scheme of things that could have been told in some other, more entertaining, way. They're mainly used in order to develop an emotional closeness between the character and the reader as you are put in the said character's shoes. Imo, the flashbacks did well at what they wanted to do : bringing out, in a very concrete way, the context that led a character to act in one particular way. (that is often already known to the reader, even if only partially).

And to be honest, Fata Morgana revolves a LOT around many kinds of "flashback", a very conscious choice since they're part of, easily, 95% of the script if we had to cut it in parts. In that way it feels really consistent and coherent.

While yes they are integral to the story, they felt like reading a textbook in school. My enjoyment of what I'm reading comes first, and I found myself very bored there towards the end, even taking a week long break away from the VN to recharge my motivation to finish it. 

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4 hours ago, Nerathim said:

That's not really fair of you to claim that, since, as you said, you didn't read Fata Morgana and can't pinpoint anything concrete.

I think you'll find I talked mostly about the technique in general and didn't claim anything (in terms of absolutes) about Fata Morgana.

4 hours ago, Nerathim said:

The story puts a big emphasis on the idea that people never act out of ill will (at least never totally). The frequent changes of perspective and the numerous flashbacks are necessary to the main thematic in order for it to be adressed effectively. Why? Because unlike the standard use of flashback in VNs, they're not here to reveal anything particularly novel in the grand scheme of things that could have been told in some other, more entertaining, way. They're mainly used in order to develop an emotional closeness between the character and the reader as you are put in the said character's shoes.

Firstly no, it isn't. No technique is 'necessary' at all, but merely one of many techniques a writer has at his or her disposal to create a certain effect. Those who claim that techniques are 'necessary' don't have a very good knowledge of the full range of techniques at a writer's disposal. 

Secondly, standard flashbacks are not used to establish grand things about the 'novel', they are used to establish facts about the past (which could possible include grand events, but is not mandatory.) That is why it's called an 'info dump' because you're (as the writer) effectively dumping background information in (what many people consider) one of the laziest manners possible. The flashbacks in Fata Morgana are no different, in that they are massive dumps of information to reveal background and past information. The danger of using this technique is that while it does reveal information, it also affects the pacing of the plot.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, if your story has a plot (not necessary) then any time spent significantly developing anything will affect the plot in some way. Which is why many flashbacks in succession are usually enough to kill off reader's interest in novels, because even though it reveals information it does this in a way which negatively affects the story as a whole. This is because it halts the forward progress of present events. Quality writers will address themes, and develop characters WHILE moving the story forward. If you need to dump all that information in a series of flashbacks near the end, in a series of flashbacks which includes much repetition, chances are the writer has cocked things up somehow (if done intentionally) or just got lazy (if done unintentionally.)  In general, I'm sure there are people who have done it in an effective manner but the majority don't.

The VN community seems to have a thing about long scenes which do nothing other than 'develop character'. 'You need those long scenes of nothingness to develop emotional ties with characters', they'll say. Codswollop, you need no such thing. There are a multitude of stories that develop deep ties between characters and the reader without such stuff being present. Those long scenes which do nothing, they're considered 'bad writing' in novels with a plot. So don't be surprised when readers turn their noses up at them.

People may enjoy them, you may enjoy them, I enjoy many writers who write badly also, but I'm not going to try and claim that techniques considered 'bad' are actually quite good because I enjoyed them. Or because they are 'necessary' (this is never the case, btw) to the story.

But I have seem writers warned again and again about the dangers of flashbacks turning off readers. So you shouldn't be surprised that SolidBatman felt the way he did, because it's quite a common reaction.

And yes, I'm doing this while not reading Fata Morgana. How dare I!? xD I've seen it used often enough though (and I float around the writer community enough) that I don't need to see the story in question to tell you why people are turned off by the use of it or to tell you about it.

4 hours ago, Nerathim said:

Imo, the flashbacks did well at what they wanted to do : bringing out, in a very concrete way, the context that led a character to act in one particular way. (that is often already known to the reader, even if only partially).

Background character information dumped on the reader. Standard use of flashback, really. Nothing special about it.

4 hours ago, Nerathim said:

And to be honest, Fata Morgana revolves a LOT around many kinds of "flashback", a very conscious choice since they're part of, easily, 95% of the script if we had to cut it in parts. In that way it feels really consistent and coherent.

Is that so ... conscious? Like the repetitive 8 episodes in the second season of Melancholy of Haruhi was 'conscious' and done for effect? :P 

Sorry, couldn't resist. People are too concerned with 'ideas' sometimes.

1 hour ago, solidbatman said:

While yes they are integral to the story, they felt like reading a textbook in school. My enjoyment of what I'm reading comes first, and I found myself very bored there towards the end, even taking a week long break away from the VN to recharge my motivation to finish it. 

Writers are warned to be careful of 'long flashback sequences', 'numerous flashback sequences', and we may as well include 'numerous flashback sequences which repeat shit over and over again' precisely because it bores the bejeezus out of most people xD

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4 minutes ago, Rooke said:

*Researches Fata Moragana*

Oh, the whole thing is one flashback after another. GREAAAAT. What a fascinating storytelling technique (this is sarcasm, in case nobody could tell.)

Considering the focus on the story is in what happens in the past, your sarcasm couldn't be more wrong.

Why don't you try to read it instead of complaining for no reason?

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It’s very possible to tell a story set around the actions of characters in the past while narrating in the present. One might even say more engaging. Flashbacks are just one of the easiest, most straight forward way of presenting past events to the reader, and it's rarely anywhere near the most powerful. Uncovering the past slowly through present events allows for much more mystery and tension (for starters) than is possibly when just dumping the past events onto the reader.

But alas, the VN community has this thing where people aren’t allowed to comment on VNs without experiencing the whole Gorram thing. I had the same problem with people when I said 999 was told in a bland manner (after only experiencing half an hour of it,) and when I gave up on E17 a couple of hours in. So here’s the words of someone who has read the whole thing:

Quote

Unfortunately, while there’s barely anything to complain about the actual content of the story, I felt like the way it was told undermined both its dramatic effect and interest it could have otherwise generated.

For starters, the whole thing is told through flashbacks and you are almost always spoiled as to what’s going to happen beforehand, especially towards the end. On top of that, during the last chapters you sometimes get multiple long flashbacks of the same story from different perspectives, which while shedding more light on the whole situation and solidifying the story even further, also successfully turn the pacing into a slog.

I guess it is something one should expect from amateur writers, but it truly feels like at one point Hanada Keika got so deep into her (?) own story she forgot that merely narrating it, with no plot devices to play with the reader’s expectations and emotions, doesn’t make for a particularly riveting read and in fact makes it pretty hard to get into, no matter how well thought out and theoretically dramatic the whole thing is supposed to be in the end. I felt like some emotional scenes didn’t come across as well as they could have due to the almost mechanic presentation (though it might also be due to the fact that most characters are not really that interesting beyond their extraordinary circumstances).

Well, it seems like I spent over half of the review complaining again, but the kinda less than exciting storytelling and pacing issues aside, Fata Morgana delivers one of the more mature and memorable stories around that is like nothing you’re used to seeing in visual novels. It might not pay due attention to superficial entertainment or emotional manipulation, but it sure has plenty of soul.

https://vnrw.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/vn-the-house-in-fata-morgana/

I am shocked, SHOCKED at those conclusions. Truly, I thought flashbacks (and repetitive flashbacks no less) were the true pinnacle of dramatic storytelling.

I won't read it because it's too dark for me.

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1 hour ago, Rooke said:

*Researches Fata Moragana*

Oh, the whole thing is one flashback after another. GREAAAAT. What a fascinating storytelling technique (this is sarcasm, in case nobody could tell.)

Wow, really? I got pretty fed up with Root Double's character-plot revelation based flashbacks so if what you say about this VN is true....:(

 

1 hour ago, Rooke said:

I won't read it because it's too dark for me.

Man in his mid-late thirties is too goo-goo-ga-ga and skur bwak bwaaaak for them darky themes eh :sachi: 

~~
I'll read this sometime when @Dergy is ready to read it with me; so far my first impressions of this VN is that its being highly praised just because of "WOW UNIQUE ART, WOW UNIQUE STORY, WOW VOCAL SOUNDTRACK" 

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18 minutes ago, Eclipsed said:

Wow, really? I got pretty fed up with Root Double's character-plot revelation based flashbacks so if what you say about this VN is true....:(
~~
I'll read this sometime when @Dergy is ready to read it with me; so far my first impressions of this VN is that its being highly praised just because of "WOW UNIQUE ART, WOW UNIQUE STORY, WOW VOCAL SOUNDTRACK" 

Again, its a 4 hour section at the end that drew my ire. The first 12-16 hours are fantastic, and incredibly enjoyable to read. And, some people are fine with the things I've criticized. @Nerathim is not alone in his opinion on how these ending flashbacks are handled. I've spoken to others, before I wrote this review, who shared his opinion on it. 

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12 hours ago, Rooke said:

Firstly no, it isn't. No technique is 'necessary' at all, but merely one of many techniques a writer has at his or her disposal to create a certain effect. Those who claim that techniques are 'necessary' don't have a very good knowledge of the full range of techniques at a writer's disposal.

I was so sure you'd answer something along those lines. I didn't mean that it was the ONLY technique among many others, but given your apparent disdain for flashbacks I found wise to highlight that this particular technique was not used in an attempt to take the easy road but because it suited the story really well.

 

12 hours ago, Rooke said:

Secondly, standard flashbacks are not used to establish grand things about the 'novel', they are used to establish facts about the past (which could possible include grand events, but is not mandatory.) That is why it's called an 'info dump' because you're (as the writer) effectively dumping background information in (what many people consider) one of the laziest manners possible. The flashbacks in Fata Morgana are no different, in that they are massive dumps of information to reveal background and past information. The danger of using this technique is that while it does reveal information, it also affects the pacing of the plot.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, if your story has a plot (not necessary) then any time spent significantly developing anything will affect the plot in some way. Which is why many flashbacks in succession are usually enough to kill off reader's interest in novels, because even though it reveals information it does this in a way which negatively affects the story as a whole. This is because it halts the forward progress of present events. Quality writers will address themes, and develop characters WHILE moving the story forward. If you need to dump all that information in a series of flashbacks near the end, in a series of flashbacks which includes much repetition, chances are the writer has cocked things up somehow (if done intentionally) or just got lazy (if done unintentionally.)  In general, I'm sure there are people who have done it in an effective manner but the majority don't.

The VN community seems to have a thing about long scenes which do nothing other than 'develop character'. 'You need those long scenes of nothingness to develop emotional ties with characters', they'll say. Codswollop, you need no such thing. There are a multitude of stories that develop deep ties between characters and the reader without such stuff being present. Those long scenes which do nothing, they're considered 'bad writing' in novels with a plot. So don't be surprised when readers turn their noses up at them.

The thing is that all these flashbacks are more akin to short stories than flashbacks. And labelling them as nothing more than lazy infodump is inappropriate since a great deal of care has been put into making them genuinely entertaining. They don't focus only on past events, they also take their time to introduce a historical context, an atmosphere (and we're also talking about music here, let's not forget that). These flashbacks (or short stories) happen in very differents periods of time that are cleanly separated. Saying that it always negatively affects the story couldn't be more wrong; and we have to thanks the VN medium for that as it allows a synergy between text, sound and visuals. When I'm reading you, I get the feeling that resorting to flashbacks is always a sign of some kind of writing failure that VNs readers will let slide because they're uneducated peasants who have never touched a real novel in their life (even if my bookshelf is at risk of collapse) and prefer to jack off to pretty ideas that remind them of their favorite shonen. You support that claim saying that it halts the forward progress of present events, but in Fata Morgana's case, present events aren't that important. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if someone got bored in the scenes happening between the flashbacks. But as you said, there is the possibilty that flashbacks can be done right and Fata Morgana is one example of that.

Those long scenes of "nothingness" are everything except nothingness and even though developing emotional ties may be one of the reasons for the use of these flashbacks, they're also here to contribute to the setting as I previously said. I wouldn't have enjoyed Fata Morgana as much as I did without being immersed into different eras, pretty subjective you'd say but it has a great thing going for it and that's its originality. For instance, VNs and videogames (they both share the same kind of immersion, you may compare novels and visual novels when it comes to writing style but as mediums they don't have much in common when you are "experimenting" them)  throwing you into a believable version of the industrial revolution are a pretty rare occurence nowadays.

And that's the something you don't find mentioned in your extract of Conjueror's review, that I don't agree with anyway (opinions!). Because plot devices to play with the reader’s expectations and emotions  are definitely present and I feel like that's his main complaint here. Otherwise, he brings out the same point as solidbatman : there are pacing issues near the end  that people interpret in different ways. That's all there is to it. 

Fata Morgana is mainly loved for its uniqueness and even if people may have (justified) qualms with the execution it doesn't necessarily make the story a failure in that aspect.

Even though it may be a problem that the execution didn't bother EVERYONE as it should be because the factors we use to define good writing precede even the universe and are far beyond the reach of mere mortals. Any story that can't boast Flaubert's level of prose should be ridiculed after all. Seriously, I understand the fact the we can make a distinction between "good" and "bad" writing but it should never become a criteria for people other than ourselves imo. Establishing rules that are to be followed if one wants to create a "work of art" is counterproductive, this kind of proselytism is the best way to kill innovation and creativity. It's like indirectly forcing an author to do something that pleases instead of something personal and I am against that, authors are free to agree to the "good writing" conventions if they want (and to the great pleasure of the majority of people who will read them) but making an absolutely objective analysis of any kind of writing is impossible. Negative criticism affects people far too much and I believe the only individual able to judge a work is the artist himself.

Well, most people in research of writing advice want to do something that pleases anyway.

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10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

The thing is that all these flashbacks are more akin to short stories than flashbacks.

All flashbacks are akin to short stories. The author is retelling past events in a flashback, ergo short story. If you're trying to say that the flashbacks in Fata Morgana are different because they're short stories, then you're unsuccessful. There is nothing different or unique about the flashbacks used in Fata Morgana.

10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

And labelling them as nothing more than lazy infodump is inappropriate since a great deal of care has been put into making them genuinely entertaining. 

I disagree here, there's a difference between care in content and care in storytelling. Lazy storytelling does not mean the author was lazy about the creation of the content within.

10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

They don't focus only on past events, they also take their time to introduce a historical context, an atmosphere (and we're also talking about music here, let's not forget that).

Historical context and atmosphere are all to do with the retelling of past events. You're just saying the flashbacks are detailed, that hardly makes them special.

And unless the music we're talking about is from the 50s, and includes the words 'spurs', 'jingle', and 'jangle', then I'd really question whether the music is worth it (heh.)

10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

Saying that it always negatively affects the story couldn't be more wrong; and we have to thanks the VN medium for that as it allows a synergy between text, sound and visuals

...

You support that claim saying that it halts the forward progress of present events, but in Fata Morgana's case, present events aren't that important. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if someone got bored in the scenes happening between the flashbacks.

Okay, meaty portion.

There’s 2 parts to this answer. I’ll quickly deal with the idea of ‘present events not being important’ in the second part.

When I say that flashbacks always negatively affects the story, I meant the present narrative, and it's always accurate. Flashbacks are a dangerous technique to use because they stunt the forward progress of the story to take you on a trip to the past. Because of this, the general writing theory is to use them sparingly, because they are so often done poorly. Mainly because amateur writers never acknowledge the downsides to a technique when thinking of which one to use. To write a flashback well, the pros must overcome the major con of the technique (and the synergy of text, sound, and visuals are unrelated here.) You’re saying it’s perfectly justified because the past events are interesting and fascinating (and something else which I'll get to in a sec,) I’M saying that it always detracts from the main story occurring in the present, and this has little to do with how interesting the past events are. The story is always the most important thing, and writers always have to be careful about how much backstory and worldbuilding their novels contain. They like to get carried away on occasion.

However, if the pros of the flashback outweighs the con due to the present events being incredibly unimportant and uninteresting, then I would question why the present events were included at all. It’s perfectly possibly to tell the story of a house spanning generations in chronological order taking the reader on a journey through time. If present events (present narrative) are a distraction, do away with them. If your claim is true, that flashbacks don’t hurt the present events because the present events are unimportant, then they shouldn't be there. Unless they are important, in which case copious flashbacks will detract from them.

See this circle we're going on, that's why flashbacks are so disdained. The cons are strong in this one. Care is needed.

10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

But as you said, there is the possibilty that flashbacks can be done right and Fata Morgana is one example of that.

Really? I'm observing many complaints concerning the use of the final set of flashbacks. If 'pacing issues near the end' due to 'repetitive flashbacks' is a common complaint, then I would say it wasn't done right at all.

10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

Those long scenes of "nothingness" are everything except nothingness and even though developing emotional ties may be one of the reasons for the use of these flashbacks, they're also here to contribute to the setting as I previously said. 

Hmmm, the purpose of a scene is rarely to create emotional ties, and it never should be to expand the setting. It might appeal to those already in love with the novel, these people want as much extra information as they can, but it would turn away most others. But it can be done successfully, don't be surprised about the complaints, though. Which brings me to my next point:

10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

When I'm reading you, I get the feeling that resorting to flashbacks is always a sign of some kind of writing failure that VNs readers will let slide because they're uneducated peasants who have never touched a real novel in their life (even if my bookshelf is at risk of collapse) and prefer to jack off to pretty ideas that remind them of their favorite shonen.

You're not reading me correctly. Let's go full circle.

You stated you didn't understand how the flashback fest at the end could make the story drag out because, and tell me if I'm paraphrasing you wrong, the events within the flashback were well paced and entertaining. I thought I'd clarify the subject for you, I mean I've only studied writing for about 10 years now and converse with authors and publishing house editors, so obviously my understanding on writing isn't at the top of the field (it's a field you study for life, and will keep learning new stuff until you die. Which is why I won't pick up another language, for all those wondering. Too much to learn about English.) However, I thought I'd convey unto you the conventional wisdom which floats around the writing community. Talk to most editors, writers, or consult the internet and they all say the same thing about flashbacks - use with care.

Now, they obviously don't say that for shits and giggles, there's a reason for that. So if the community says 'flashbacks lead to a lack of tension, a lack of forwarding of the narrative, and PACING issues' for such and such reasons, then you shouldn't be surprised when the community brings up PACING ISSUES due to Fata Morgana's questionable use of flashbacks near the end. Questionable due to the author wanting (for some reason) to dump the same information from different viewpoints - a negative because we’re not talking about separate short stories, but a single narrative, and therefore should be treated, and judged, as one. I probably should have just said that first ... yeah, I probably should have said that first. The problem is I often have so much I want to say, I end up cutting great chunks out of it to whittle it down to an appropriate size. My fault.

So it's slow due to repetitive dumping the same information, which affects a single narrative in a negative way. Possibly fine as separate stories, but they're not separate stories, it's a single narrative, so there's problems.

Now, you could say this is all a 'preference thing', and that Fata Morgana really does use flashbacks well, then put your fingers in your ears and go 'lalala' to all the criticism. True. Why not acknowledge that as a piece of entertainment (don't say 'art', like a pretentious artist) it has flaws as well as strengths? No? Well, you're free to think what you like.

10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

there are pacing issues near the end  that people interpret in different ways. That's all there is to it. 

Heh, according to Bats 4 hours of a 16-20 hours VN. That's 1/5 or 1/4. That's a pretty long 'end', btw ...

10 hours ago, Nerathim said:

Even though it may be a problem that the execution didn't bother EVERYONE as it should be because the factors we use to define good writing precede even the universe and are far beyond the reach of mere mortals. Any story that can't boast Flaubert's level of prose should be ridiculed after all. Seriously, I understand the fact the we can make a distinction between "good" and "bad" writing but it should never become a criteria for people other than ourselves imo. Establishing rules that are to be followed if one wants to create a "work of art" is counterproductive, this kind of proselytism is the best way to kill innovation and creativity. It's like indirectly forcing an author to do something that pleases instead of something personal and I am against that, authors are free to agree to the "good writing" conventions if they want (and to the great pleasure of the majority of people who will read them) but making an absolutely objective analysis of any kind of writing is impossible. Negative criticism affects people far too much and I believe the only individual able to judge a work is the artist himself.

I see, an 'artist'. Pretentious youngster, or wordsmith?

I'm only asking because a lot of youngsters wander around the writing circuit talking about 'art' without knowing much at all about writing. The cynical person within thinks part of the reason they use it is to invalidate all criticism 'you wouldn't understand, it's art. Don't judge, it's art.' The other end of the coin are actual wordsmiths who know techniques inside out and can bend the language to their will, that's how they create art. Not by wandering around in a cape thinking they're above critique.

Good writing is any writing which succeeds in projecting the image of the scene to the reader. The rules are there to help the imagery, the manipulation, the use of language to good effect. Adjectives, for example, are so denigrated because they reduce descriptions down to a single word, shedding much detail, and relying on the reader to do much of the image creation. They also are not precise. Weak adjectives even more so. There's a 100 different ways a person can be 'sad', for example. Therefore the uselessness of this adjective, but its consistent use among beginner writers is why the technique is considered 'bad'. That being said, there are some wordsmiths who can create a metaphor using a single adjective which creates an incredibly powerful image. And there are some who use adjectives frequently yet adeptly. There are also many cases where using adjectives are fine - it's a valid technique provided you know the cons.

The rules are there for people who don't know why the rules are there. Wordsmiths don't need to follow the rules, because they understand the pros and cons of techniques and can manipulate language at will. Are you that good? No? Do you understand the ins and outs of the technique you're going to use? Break the rules at your peril, then. Sorry for being a downer.

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