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The longer the better?


InvertMouse

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I mean length in visual novels and games come on guys :makina:.

But really, I often hear people say they will not give so and so game (and VNs, but I might just use the word game for the rest of this topic) a chance because it is under x hours long. Some will even immediately dismiss the shorter titles as garbage, so I want to see if I can ask for some opinions on this.

Earlier today, I received my physical copy of Clannad from that kickstarter last year! Us Aussies here got a bit of a delay, but that's all good. I was stoked at first, but then I thought, it's a 50 hour game mate, as if you'll ever be able to finish it, and then I got sad :P.

Maybe I'm becoming a grumpy and impatient old fart. When I hear a AAA title is 50 hours long, I just think okay, so how much padding is inside? In the case of a VN, it'll be hours upon hours of scenes that might've been taken out in a different medium. I seem to lose patience so quickly, which is on me, but then again, I played through shorter games like Ame no Marginal recently, and I enjoyed them just fine. Many of them were more memorable than the longer ones I tried to slog through. I sound like such a hipster but these are my honest thoughts :wafuu:.

In the end, I guess we all just have different requirements. Back in college ten years ago, I went through Ever17 just fine, and that was a 50 hour game. I completed FF X, too, but it'll take me years to do the same thing again now. It's not like either preference is superior, and in fact, after writing this, I think I'll give those longer games another shot. I have Clannad with me right here so why not 8)?

Thanks everyone ^_^.

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Ugh, to be honest, when I see "length: 50 hours+" I just go like ... :vinty: 

Even really interesting titles will get boring eventually. 

10-30 hours is the perfect length in my opinion. It's really hard to drag out a game well over 50 hours and keep it interesting the entire time. 

I love shorter games, as it lets me play more VNs, instead of being stuck on one for a month. 

 

Think I'm getting old :sacchan: 

There used to be a time where I'd go through games like Grisaia no Kajitsu in a few weeks and would then get angry when it was over.

Ahh, youth :makina: 

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I guess I am partially guilty of the attitude of longer VNs being better. I won't discard shorter titles, but I tend to enjoy the longer VNs better. I think this is because I like immersing myself into the VN rather than seeing a snapshot of the world (so to speak). Maybe shorter VNs are like passing through a tourist area without really stopping while longer VNs are more like fully engaging in the attractions in that area. I personally like the immersion approach although others may like seeing a little bit of everything.

That is not to say that every long game is great. If it is too repetitive (too long of a common route or gameplay), I tend to drop it (Aselia the Eternal comes to mind). Usually, this isn't a problem for me though since there is a skip read text feature.

Sigh... Derg beat me again^_^

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I love short vn not because they are short but because I know that most of the time there wont be pointless dialogues going on and on and on just to fill space in the script, or those types of vns where you have 2000 heroines and only 1 or 2 are actually good and the rest are crap beyond redemption, just fillers.

One of my fav vn of all times is narcissu and it's around 2 hours but on the other hand (and leaving the ending aside) muv luv is too one of my fav of all times and it lasted more than 100 hours  and I didn't want it to end xD same with clannad.

So the answer is: I don't have any idea, it depends on the vn itself :P 

 

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Thanks for the replies! Dergonu, yeah, I actually want to play Grisaia really badly. The premise seems refreshing, and I am a sucker for pretty pictures like anyone else, but all it takes is for one person out there to say a game has fluff scenes, and I want out :o.

Deep Blue, Narcissu Side 2nd is not just one of my favorites, but my very favorite visual novel of all time! It lasted for around six hours with my reading speed. Oh yeah, that's another thing I forgot to mention. I'm a slow ass reader man. See, I like to read the lines and imagine being in the scene, which really slows things down. Sometimes I skim read when I know a game is long, but then I just end up not enjoying the journey, even if I do ultimately complete the read.

By the way, thank you so much for keeping that Vinty emoticon around. I treat it as a massive honor and never take it for granted :vinty:.

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I read one time in some shady blog :ph34r: that writers are paid for the amount of stuff they write, sometimes they even have to reach a certain amount of text and because of that they tend to fill the scrip with garbage all the time...now I don't know if this is true or not but it makes sense when you read vns like Fate/Stay Night and you have scenes were the characters are talking about food or eating for more than 10 mins... :pyaa: and that happens every day xD

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As a older fella (a real one, not you kids in your mid-to-late 20's claiming to be "getting old" :makina: ), I like a game and/or VN to be long - mainly because I'm cheap and like my money to go further. But also, and more seriously - it's like a good book - you don't WANT it to end, so the longer it goes (without over-staying its welcome) the better. I WANT it to take up my time - if it can keep me busy, and it's something I can get invested into - then it's a huge plus for me. Why would I want just a fleeting glimpse? To me, instant gratification sucks.

Honestly, the shorter stuff seems more suited to those with low patience, or busy lives - I have neither. :sachi: People can complain about "filler", but to me, that's just a sign of someone bored with the genre overall - and looking for  new and unique stimuli. I like my filler, if presented in a good fashion.

 

On a side note, I admit I hold some bias against short stuff, as I automatically put those devs in the camp of "couldn't be bothered to put more effort into it". Which I realize is unfair - but you used to get a lot more for your money then you do nowadays, undeniably.

 

Some will dispute this example, but still: I come from a time when books were read by many, frequently... And I can say that most books worth their salt were a far bigger timesink then any medium I've come across since.

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If I really like a character's behavior, voice acting or the random dialogues I'd want more length. Another thing is if the ending's sad, or a character dies, I REALLY want them to have proper time to have shown themselves and interacted in the story. Otherwise it's like pretty empty.

Other than that...nowadays if they put filler in the 30-50 hour long VN's I can tell and don't like reading it.

 

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Honestly, 10-30 hours is usually too little for me to really get into the characters and like it, as with VNs in that length category, the routes usually feel in the short side and more often than not, feel lacking, but I can also see why people get bored with 50+ hours long VNs, as they do get really drawn out, but I don't really mind them.

The optimal length for me is somewhere between 30 and 50 hours, not too long and not too short either.

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I'd say actual time investment is what really matters. Why?

There's a difference between game bloating, made to virtually increase their size and actual quality content included. A lot of games nowadays use clever tricks, which make them feel bigger, than they really are; things like character/resource micromanagement, puzzles etc. All of them increase the ammount of time you spend on the game, but is it time well spent? Not necesarilly.

You can have a 60h+ visual novel (I'm looking at you, Clannad :amane:) and literally feel the weight of your own soul, because of how much everything drags in it... or you can have a very short game, you might dub "the best few hours spent in your entire life". Which do you think would be better? Which one would you rather play?

1 hour ago, InvertMouse said:

Maybe I'm becoming a grumpy and impatient old fart. When I hear a AAA title is 50 hours long, I just think okay, so how much padding is inside? In the case of a VN, it'll be hours upon hours of scenes that might've been taken out in a different medium. I seem to lose patience so quickly, which is on me, but then again, I played through shorter games like Ame no Marginal recently, and I enjoyed them just fine. Many of them were more memorable than the longer ones I tried to slog through. I sound like such a hipster but these are my honest thoughts :wafuu:.

You're not getting grumpier :makina: You got to an age, where you actually begin to value your time.

 

 

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I guess it depends. In some VNs, you have pointless SoL scenes that just bore you to death, and that's all the game consists of. In other VNs, SoL scenes actually serve the purpose of getting you to better understand the characters, get attached to them, and feel invested in the story and the setting/world where it's taking place. There is more time to flesh out the reality the characters are experiencing. This makes you care for the characters much more, which in turn makes the drama that comes later much more impactful. Those are the VNs, when even if they were 50+ hours long, you still really miss the characters and the setting and want to read more when it's over. (Rewrite, I'm looking at you)

But if a VN is just going to have pointless filler, then I guess I'd rather they'd make it shorter.

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It all depends on the title and what's it about. A moege with no interaction or development shouldn't be 50 hours long. That's just painful. But a more interesting story with some suspense, thriller or an actual development could be that long. As long its well written and not "horrible". I am a huge fan of Rance too. Sengoku Rance was a game I can easily plow 50 hours on without achieving anything. Euphoria is an good example too. Where the story was interesting and it was always something new that occurred. Euphoria wasn't 50 hours long though.

A SoL moege is pointless and it is enough with a couple of hours maximum. Don't let these moege fanatics convince you.

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Most of VNs I like are short and medium size. When it is long it usually have lot of parts which I want to throw out, as it does not really add anything to story. So I am more fan of Urobuchi writing, when most of character development is done through action, not through their useless blather (which takes 5 hours or more in whole VN).. Just most of VN writers are weak in terms of story composition and meaningful dialogues, this why we usually get opinions like "I like this and that, but overall story is weak"... That's why actually we even get genres like "moege" and "charage". Imagine that in real novel - I doubt anyone would be able to read 3000 pages of no plot, random sex scenes and chatter about "kawaii" things (well, even in Twilight there is more story, than in your typical charage).

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Solution: Play 2 games at the same time. One long wordy VN low on the H content, and one nukige. After reading to the point of getting bored, fire up the nukige and get instant gratification. Though you need a reserve of nukiges to keep doing this since you'll burn it out faster than the long VN... though there's no lack of nukige to choose from.

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It's all riding on its quality. 50+ hours of boredom is simply that, boredom in more quantity. But when talking about good titles, more hours are very rarely something bad. Deep, meaningful development and a multi-layered story requires hours to be properly shaped, and to connect.

Short stories are not necessarily devoid of all this. What does happen is that they tend to prioritize (or focus solely) on one aspect or theme, and go all in, making them hit-or-miss short stories that some enjoy, and some don't.

This is pretty much why the best, deepest stories (and complex characters), those that connect with us and speak to us in a more personal way, that we'll remember as something that shaped us as people, tend to be the very long ones

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13 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

Short stories are not necessarily devoid of all this. What does happen is that they tend to prioritize (or focus solely) on one aspect or theme, and go all in, making them hit-or-miss short stories that some enjoy, and some don't.

This is pretty much why the best, deepest stories (and complex characters), those that connect with us and speak to us in a more personal way, that we'll remember as something that shaped us as people, tend to be the very long ones

That's because we do not have experienced writers in VNs. People who could write - move on from VNs to real novels. It becomes evident, if you compare some good novel with LN from VN author. But it is not like writing is all what is needed to make a good VN - solid graphics and good music is a part of success as well. Not sure about voice acting, as I do not listen them most of the time, so it could be enough for me just voiced prologue for example to get grip of characters.

All above is just my opinion.

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6 minutes ago, Scorp said:

That's because we do not have experienced writers in VNs. People who could write - move on from VNs to real novels. It becomes evident, if you compare some good novel with LN from VN author. But it is not like writing is all what is needed to make a good VN - solid graphics and good music is a part of success as well. Not sure about voice acting, as I do not listen them most of the time, so it could be enough for me just voiced prologue for example to get grip of characters.

All above is just my opinion.

Without good (and experienced) writers, more hours would fall into my first example, just added hours of boredom. Having more space to work with will never solve bad writing. What I would say, though, is that the Japanese in general seem to have problems with writing in all areas except for books/novels and, even then, just some authors. They really seem to struggle with good writing.

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who cares about the length?

about >50hr game: you can easily get bored at around 10-15 hr 

about 10-30hr game: you might think that the game is too short for some reason

about <10hr game: dont know, maybe its an after story or something

so 30-50 hr maybe just right to most people....

 

also if you get bored at longer vn, then finish 1 route at a time then play something for a change of mind. (i keep switching vn so i dont get bored at common route)

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In my experiences, a long VN that is good will not always feel long, whereas a short VN that is terrible will almost always feel longer than it is.

To be blunt, it is possible to write a short VN that is good.  Narcissu is an obvious example of this.  However, it does place limitations on the writer, in the sense that he needs to be able to pack the entire meaning of the story he is writing into a smaller package.  Just because something is longer doesn't mean it is better.  I've played many horrible and long VNs out there... most of the best VNs I've played were pretty long, but that is more a function of the fact that a lot of the best writers out there are long-winded.  There are at least some writers who can pack a lot of meaning into a small package without making it seem hurried or cut short.

Satsukoi is a fairly obvious example of this.  It is a pretty short VN (shorter than most charage, which are generally as short as a multi-path VN gets).  However, it is one of those VNs I will probably still remember twenty years from now, by name, lol.

Eden is a good translated example of this.  If you are a reasonably fast reader, it is possible to complete it in five hours... and yet it packs a great deal of emotion and story into that five hours.

Edit: In the end, how much content is packed into a certain amount of text is a matter of the style and skill of the writer.  A poor quality VN is a poor quality VN, regardless of length... and the reverse is just as true.

 

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I agree with Derg, 30 hours is enough for every kind of game (unless I crazily love it). 50-hour VNs drag along and are boring by the end. Also a great number of heroines means some will be underdeveloped and just filler material.

But most really short VNs don't work, they have just too little content. Quartett was okay, but it has way lesser impact than, say, Ever 17. Also, it had way too many characters for such a short playing time.

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Much like @Dergonu & @Arcadeotic my ideal length lays somewhere along the 30 to 50 hour mark, that way I can really get invested in the characters and relationships between them as well. But it also depends on the quality of said Vn, if it's not engaging or pretty boring then it gets too tedious becoming likely to be dropped or stalled. 

Don't get me wrong though, I love short vn's as well if they're done right, the problem with these ones lays in the fact that you don't have the time to get invested with the story or characters as much as you would with the 30 hour or 50 hour vns. That being said there's some surprisingly engaging and great short vn's out there too.

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Both lengths allow a good story.

Umineko is a relevant example of a long VN that works pretty damn well. On the other hand there are VNs like Hanachirasu and Eden* that are not only short but also good, it's a big mistake to claim one length is necessary better than the other even if it's alright to have preferences. But I guess i'm stating the obvious.

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Looking at the general vote trends on VNDB, people tend to prefer longer games. So do I, apparently. I think one part of this is if a company is dedicating itself to releasing a 50+ hour epic, they're generally going to put some polish on it and make sure it's reasonably good. Naturally, there are some very long VNs that are still bad anyway, but it seems like most of them are the kinds of games developers put their all into. And companies that just poop out generic tripe year after year tend to not make that stuff terribly long (think Peassoft). So it makes sense that the community tends to like longer VNs at least a little bit more on average.

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