Why people are so insecure about the subject of h scenes in vn?

[Eai]

I don't know why but it seems that a lot of people playing visual novel are insecure or react quite strongly about this subject as i have seen in many places and here.

Many times people are justifing the existence of h scenes in vn with the argument that it's for the sales while saying themselves that they don't like h scenes in vn. Where does this inconsistency comes from? Because it's contradictory to say that people want to play vn for the story and then say that without h it would sell less or that they are necessary otherwise. There isn't any logic there.

As far as i 'm concerned, i'm strongly against H scenes in vn and especially vn who use them extensively. Are there people who think the same here? My reason to not wanting h scenes in vn is that it not only degrades the medium but also added a distorted buissness practice for the japanese developpers who now only do this as tradition without any actual justifications.

[Codesterz]

I'm there for the hscenes, story, characters, and art. By story though I don't mean some complex well written story. I'm there for a story that is designed to give h-scenes. A type of story you don't really see much of in other genres. Also by characters I mean loli

[MercyZombie]

In this case I would say people are insecure to discuss the value of H-scenes because it usually ends with people screaming in each other's faces. or typing I guess. Typing in each other's faces? Anyway it's not very productive and never leads anywhere.

Edit: Alright, despite what I just said I'm going to throw in my two cent anyway, prove me wrong internet. I don't particular care much about whether a VN has h-scenes or not. As long as they are not too awkwardly forced in at least. Well I do say I don't care but I still buy the uncensored version of all the VNs I buy so I guess I care somewhat. 

Also it's only really contradictory if you assume those two groups of people too be the same. You can say you like something but also assume other people aren't going to buy it. I know that's definitely true.

 

[john 'mr. customer' smith]

I think the inconsistency comes from the different types of consumers; those that just want to play them for the story and those that just want to play them for the sex. The rest of your impressions are only accurate for certain people in a discussion, and there's not really such a thing as consensus on this matter

Sorry about my reaction earlier, I didn't realize how impolite it was

[Kaguya]

Dicussing this is fine, as long as you don't turn it into what happened in the last thead (which was broken beyond recovery.) 

Please, don't stop to shitpost. I don't know whether or not this person is baiting, but it really doesn't matter.

Given how the last one ended up, this thread will be moderated much more strictly than what we usually do around here. Hope you understand.

Now, happy discussing!

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Well, I do like H scenes. VNs allow you to know the characters better and hold feelings for them, which has a pretty nice effect on the H itself. 

I read them for both H and the story (oftentimes separately, though.) 

By the way, I don't see much of a contradiction with saying that "I dislike H-scenes, but they're there for the sales"

The point of the argument is that, in general, people are more likely to buy titles with H scenes than they are to buy titles without it.  

People saying that are making a statement about the majority of the VN-buying public, not about themselves. 

Whether or not the statement is correct is an entirely different matter. I know little data about it, so all that I can offer are my observations and speculation - Some VNs certainly can thrive without H-scenes. A (probably valid) argument against that is that only big-name publishers have the luxury of making said non-H VNs, though. Either way, the fact nukige tend to sell pretty well indicates that there's a pretty good interest in H scenes, at the very least.

[Qrqe]

Dunno about West, but for sales at the japan H-scenes are definitely a must without a doubt. For example you can check Island's sales, Its only 1/8 of eushully's game and 14th at the April* sales, even https://vndb.org/v18694 this has doubled the Island's sales. I think this explain pretty much everything; We have a game which definitely has a great story, Currently highest score of the year and almost everyone is praising it, but when you look into sales its not even near to some random nukiges.

If its not enough, you can check Shoujo-tachi wa Kouya o Mezasu as well. Its written by Tanaka Romeo & Takahiro, Everyone was looking forward for it and how many did it sell? Only 75 points. No seirously, I'm not joking it sold less than 1/2 of a nukige like https://vndb.org/v18766. Even https://vndb.org/v18795 sold like 120 points.

 

In short it doesn't really matter what you/me/we want as long as h-scenes are influencing sales that much and there is no contradiction at all. Let me give you another example; go and check the Chrono Clock's japanese reviews, you could see how hard they complain about h-scenes and how will they affect their sales. Hell even the company got scared of it and apologised, I'm pretty sure their next game Amatsutsumi will have way more h-scenes than their other games.


 

[Eai]

42 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

By the way, I don't see much of a contradiction with saying that "I dislike H-scenes, but they're there for the sales"

Actually i was more talking about people who claim they are "necessary" by the sole reason that they think that they are there for the sale. These people opinion is contradictory.

42 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Either way, the fact nukige tend to sell pretty well indicates that there's a pretty good interest in H scenes, at the very least.

By the way, i think the main problem is that most of the vn include h scenes. It's rare to see ones who don't include it. It's a vicious circle: developpers include h scenes mainly by tradition now.

If one says that nukige sells well then it means that vn players mostly want to play vn for sex, which is very shocking to me, i think it's completely untrue (that would mean vn are aimed to perverts which i cannot accept). It's degrading for the medium to say that people are about here for the sex. Seriously, why having mosaiced sex scenes included is such a big deal? The funny thing is that even for these people who want to play for sex then they are screwed because the content is censored. And even if it's decensored, then it looks very bad because the artists don't make effort for what is hidden behind the mosaics (why would they?)

Also like i said, many people agree about the fact h scenes and nukige are making visual novel look bad, so i think actually it's rather the opposite and vn would sell better if they were free of H scenes. Seriously it is shocking to say that H boost the sales. It implies people are wanting them for the sex while many claim otherwise. That looks wrong.

40 minutes ago, Qrqe said:

Dunno about West, but for sales at the japan H-scenes are definitely a must without a doubt. For example you can check Island's sales, Its only 1/8 of eushully's game and 14th at the May sales, even https://vndb.org/v18694 this has doubled the Island's sales. I think this explain pretty much everything; We have a game which definitely has a great story, Currently highest score of the year and almost everyone is praising it, but when you look into sales its not even near to some random nukiges.

If its not enough, you can check Shoujo-tachi wa Kouya o Mezasu as well. Its written by Tanaka Romeo & Takahiro, Everyone was looking forward for it and how many did it sell? Only 75 points. No seirously, I'm not joking it sold less than 1/2 of a nukige like https://vndb.org/v18766. Even https://vndb.org/v18795 sold like 120 points.

In short it doesn't really matter what you/me/we want as long as h-scenes are influencing sales that much.
 

That's the problem with the japanese developpers, they act like brainwashed into including h scenes in their games, i think it's the main reason they want to include them.

I don't understand the points you are making reference to (like saying 120 points). Where does it comes from (website)?

To the contrary, i think if it was the reverse and the majority of vn didn't have H scenes, vn would sell a lot more. Look at the anime adaptation of many visual novel; they don't include h scenes (otherwise it would become hentai) and many of these adaptation are very successful (fate,kanon ect). It's the contrary there: if the anime included H scenes it would sell less and if they would really be needed it would never have been successfull. Why should it be different for vn?

[Nekolover]

1 hour ago, Eai said:

I don't know why but it seems that a lot of people playing visual novel are insecure or react quite strongly about this subject as i have seen in many places and here.

Many times people are justifing the existence of h scenes in vn with the argument that it's for the sales while saying themselves that they don't like h scenes in vn. Where does this inconsistency comes from? Because it's contradictory to say that people want to play vn for the story and then say that without h it would sell less or that they are necessary otherwise. There isn't any logic there.

As far as i 'm concerned, i'm strongly against H scenes in vn and especially vn who use them extensively. Are there people who think the same here? My reason to not wanting h scenes in vn is that it not only degrades the medium but also added a distorted buissness practice for the japanese developpers who now only do this as tradition without any actual justifications.

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, MercyZombie said:

In this case I would say people are insecure to discuss the value of H-scenes because it usually ends with people screaming in each other's faces. or typing I guess. Typing in each other's faces? Anyway it's not very productive and never leads anywhere.

Edit: Alright, despite what I just said I'm going to throw in my two cent anyway, prove me wrong internet. I don't particular care much about whether a VN has h-scenes or not. As long as they are not too awkwardly forced in at least. Well I do say I don't care but I still buy the uncensored version of all the VNs I buy so I guess I care somewhat. 

Also it's only really contradictory if you assume those two groups of people too be the same. You can say you like something but also assume other people aren't going to buy it. I know that's definitely true.

 

 

 

I fully disagree.    I also disagree with you OP on that last part about degrades.  I enjoy VN for their STORY AND SEX.  I can enjoy them without sex but I fucking prefer it does have sex.  Why?  Nah I pass on justifying my taste to people I don't even know. In a side note, I find all  Grisaia no Kajitsu and Michiru Matsushima sex scenes Romantic and realistic. Especially  Michiru Matsushima since I can relate to her to a scary degree. I cry..... Don't judge me -.-    

 

[Qrqe]

17 minutes ago, Eai said:

That's the problem with the japanese developpers, they act like brainwashed into including h scenes in their games, i think it's the main reason they want to include them.

I don't understand the points you are making reference to. Where does it comes from (website)?

I think if if was the reverse and the majority of vn didn't have H scenes, vn would sell a lot more. Look at the anime adaptation of many visual novel; they don't include h scenes (otherwise it would become hentai) and many of these adaptation are very successful (fate,kanon ect). It's the contrary there: if the anime included H scenes it would sell less and they would really be needed it would never have been successfull. Why should it be different for vn?

So you are saying that they have to stop adding h-scenes which sells greatly, just for a small possibility of selling a little more? With the risk of going bankrupt if that doesnt work (which is pretty likely from my examples at the upper post). How logical is it?

Also I really cant understand the anime example, Are you forgeting that non-h animes are featuring on TVs and they are making way more advertisements, spend way more money on their products, more episodes, hires more expensive VAs etc? If you want to compare Hentai animes With non-hentai ones, You have to go for OVA type non-hentai animes with the same number episodes of hentai ones, then you'll see that even they are not selling as much as them. Sorry for telling you but this anime adaptation thing is not making any sense. Also The examples you give (Fate stay night / Kanon) animes sold way more less than their visual novels.

You can check the point thing from google with エロゲ・ギャルゲ売上ランキング.

[Nekolover]

OP I not trying to offend you here but you are coming off as a bit delusional.  Human are perverts. I feel like you are a monk that enjoy reading and suddenly discovers 50 shades of gray. And is in denial of basic human nature.  

[Eai]

18 minutes ago, Qrqe said:

(Fate stay night / Kanon) animes sold way more less than their visual novels.

I'm not sure how you can say that. Fate stay night anime adaptation was so popular that oavs (and Bd versions), movies and sequels where made specifically for the anime market. Fate stay night is extremely popular in animation, and is for sure a lot more popular than the visual novel. Just ask a random anime fan, there are great chances he knows fate even only by name. But to the contrary it's a lot likely that they didn't play the vn and  even  know it was adapted from a visual novel.

11 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

OP I not trying to offend you here but you are coming off as a bit delusional.  Human are perverts. I feel like you are a monk that enjoy reading and suddenly discovers 50 shades of gray. And is in denial of basic human nature.  

Not delusionnal because a lot of people think exactly the same way i am. Actually the majority of people might think this way. If you are a pervert, then it's you only, but don't include everyone else. And there is a clear distinction between porn and art: nobody will say a porn movie is a work of art. By mixing sex into vn it degrades it and makes it a lot harder to appreciate it's value.

[Narcosis]

Is this topic discussing people or the importance of erotic content?

[Qrqe]

10 minutes ago, Eai said:

I'm not sure how you can say that. Fate stay night anime adaptation was so popular that oavs, movies and sequels where made specifically for the anime market. Fate stay night is extremely popular in animation, and might be even more than the visual novel. Just ask a random anime fan, there are great chances he knows fate even only by name. But to the contrary there are great chances that they don't even know it was adapted from a visual novel.

 

First of all being "popular" and "selling more" are pretty different things, and all of your talk are based on western people. Let me ask you in a different way then, how many of those "random anime fans" did buy the Fsn anime's blurays? 1 of 1000? Maybe even less. The reason why they wouldn't know that it was adapted from a visual novel is because of the popularity of Vns at western, with your logic Light Novels should sell only 10-15 copies because they are not popular here at all. Also if you are going to count all movies etc, then you have to count Realta nua, PSV / PS2 versions of Fate, Fate/Stay Night + Fate/Hollow Ataraxia Set etc's sales as well.  Fsn is one of the best seller games of eroge history, you are too underestimating it.

 

[Nekolover]

5 minutes ago, Eai said:

I'm not sure how you can say that. Fate stay night anime adaptation was so popular that oavs (and Bd versions), movies and sequels where made specifically for the anime market. Fate stay night is extremely popular in animation, and is for sure a lot more popular than the visual novel. Just ask a random anime fan, there are great chances he knows fate even only by name. But to the contrary it's a lot likely that they don't even knew it was adapted from a visual novel.

Not delusionnal because a lot of people think exactly the same way i am. Actually the majority of people might think this way especially if you take people outside vn circles. If you are a pervert, then it's you only, but don't include everyone else. And there is a clear distinction between porn and art: nobody will say a porn movie is a work of art, whereas a normal movie can be.

 

You are coming off now as being more delusional to me. Everything that requires work is art. You don't get to decide what art is.  Also, I will like not your opinion of being the majority but some actual data to back up your claim.  Otherwise, I disagree. 

[Eai]

11 minutes ago, Qrqe said:

 

First of all being "popular" and "selling more" are pretty different things, and all of your talk are based on western people. Let me ask you in a different way then, how many of those "random anime fans" did buy the Fsn anime's blurays? 1 of 1000? Maybe even less. The reason why they wouldn't know that it was adapted from a visual novel is because of the popularity of Vns at western, with your logic Light Novels should sell only 10-15 copies because they are not popular here at all. Also if you are going to count all movies etc, then you have to count Realta nua, PSV / PS2 versions of Fate, Fate/Stay Night + Fate/Hollow Ataraxia Set etc's sales as well.  Fsn is one of the best seller games of eroge history, you are too underestimating it.

 

In the anime market, having a lot of adaptations and blue ray is ONLY done for shows which sell very well. That's why some series don't have any BD or have only some part of the story adapted in animation.

 

10 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

You are coming off now as being more delusional to me. Everything that requires work is art. You don't get to decide what art is.  Also, I will like not your opinion of being the majority but some actual data to back up your claim.  Otherwise, I disagree. 

No offense, but you are the one who is delusionnal there, even people who watch porn wil never say it is art. Ask even random people who admit to watch porn and no one will say it's art.

Also just to know, what are you favorite Vn?

[Qrqe]

11 minutes ago, Eai said:

Not delusionnal because a lot of people think exactly the same way i am. Actually the majority of people might think this way especially if you take people outside vn circles. If you are a pervert, then it's you only, but don't include everyone else. And there is a clear distinction between porn and art: nobody will say a porn movie is a work of art. By mixing sex into vn it degrades it and makes it a lot harder to appreciate it's value.

As I said, You should stop talking based on only western people. Go and try this conversation in some japanese eroge platform, then you'll see the majority. Man are you seriously saying that 5-10 people here are the majority, while thousands people are buying their eroges depend on the h-scenes? I'm giving you sale numbers, evidences etc and you are rejecting all of them while saying "but 5 people agreed with me in last thread, majority think as me".
 

[Eai]

2 minutes ago, Qrqe said:

As I said, You should stop talking based on only western people. Go and try this conversation in some japanese eroge platform, then you'll see the majority. Man are you seriously saying that 5-10 people here are the majority, while thousands people are buying their eroges depend on the h-scenes? I'm giving you sale numbers, evidences etc and you are rejecting all of them while saying "but 5 people agreed with me in last thread, majority think as me".
 

You didn't give me sale number to proove fate sell a lot more than the anime adaptations of it, you just claimed it. There are a lot more evidence in favor of the anime selling more than the reverse.

[Nekolover]

OP also you seem to be forgetting that most people that buy VN are adults.  With cash.  Also, Most people I know that read are adults. With this in mind is like asking to make Deadpool kid friendly for the sake of sales while compromising what makes it stand out from the crowd of other movies.  Is just dumb in my opinion.   Not saying sex is required to make a good VN. Just that personally I think sex make it better. 

[Eai]

It's not a problem of aiming vn at adults. Books and movies can be aimed at adults too, that doesn't mean they should include porn because of that. Just try to include an explicit sex scene into a movie where it was before only suggered, and a lot of people will say that it is uneeded and that it degrades the movie. Being an adult is completely unrelated.

Also to proove how ridiculous it is to want sex scenes in vn i said this before:" Seriously, why having mosaiced sex scenes included is such a big deal? The funny thing is that even for these people who want to play for sex then they are screwed because the content is censored. And even if it's decensored, then it looks very bad because the artists don't make effort for what is hidden behind the mosaics (why would they?) "

There is completely not point in wanting h scenes in eroge.

[Nekolover]

6 minutes ago, Eai said:

You didn't give me sale number to proove fate sell a lot more than the anime adaptations of it, you just claimed it. There are a lot more evidence in favor of the anime selling more than the reverse.

Do you realise that the people that like to read are a small number compare to the people who like watching stuff? Have you ever been to a library? Not a lot of people most of the time. 

[Qrqe]

19 minutes ago, Eai said:

You didn't give me sale number to proove fate sell a lot more than the anime adaptations of it, you just claimed it. There are a lot more evidence in favor of the anime selling more than the reverse.

I guess I'll prove that and not going to argue with you anymore. First version of the FSN which got released at 2004 sold 146,686 sales and the PS2 version of Fate stay night, Realta nua in short sold 169,647 copies, Makes 316,333. And this number is without the PSV versions, Fsn + Hollow atarixa set etc. Its "JUST" Fsn and Realta nua.

 

Now, Lets calculate how much did Fate stay night animes sold? Unlimited blade works by Ufotable sold 76,222 at total, 39,283 s1 + 35,992 s2. How about the Original fate stay night anime which got released at 2006? Only 20,536.

 

Finally, Lets add those numbers; While Fsn + Realta nua sold 316,333 copies, Fate stay night UBW season 1, season 2 and Original fsn anime sold only 96,758. Do you need any more evidence? If you want I can give you the sources of those numbers as well, But I'm sure you can find them with just googleing. You are exaggerating the anime sales too much, specially against one of the best sellers of visual novel industry.
 

[Eai]

11 minutes ago, Qrqe said:

I guess I'll prove that and not going to argue with you anymore. First version of the FSN which got release at 2004 sold 146,686 sales and the PS2 version of Fate stay night, Realta nua in short sold 169,647 copies, Makes 316,333. And this number is without the PSV versions, Fsn + Hollow atarixa set etc. JUST Fsn and Realta nua sold 316,333.

 

Now, How much did Fate stay night animes sold? Unlimited blade works by Ufotable sold 76,222 at total, 39,283 s1 + 35,992 s2. How about the Original fate stay night anime which got released at 2006? Only 20,536.

 

Now Lets add those numbers; While Fsn + Realta nua sold 316,333 copies, Fate stay night UBW season 1, season 2 and Original fsn anime sold only 96,758. Do you need any more evidence? If you want I can give you the sources of those numbers as well, But I'm sure you can find them with just googleing.
 

Yes i would like to know where your sources come from. Sales records can vary tremendously depending of the source. But thankfully you completely proove my point. Realta nua sold more than fate stay night DESPITE being +15 without any H scenes.

If h scenes were so important, realta nua would have sold a lot less than fate stay night, and it's the reverse.

[Darklord Rooke]

16 minutes ago, Qrqe said:

I guess I'll prove that and not going to argue with you anymore. First version of the FSN which got released at 2004 sold 146,686 sales and the PS2 version of Fate stay night, Realta nua in short sold 169,647 copies, Makes 316,333. And this number is without the PSV versions, Fsn + Hollow atarixa set etc. Its "JUST" Fsn and Realta nua.

Question: If you're trying to prove the viability of the H visual novel market, why are you including sale figures from the 'all age' editions? In fact, why are you demonstrating how STRONGLY the all age versions of Fate sell?

EDIT: I would've thought you'd just disguise those figures, or gloss over them. It's what I would have done *shrugs*

[Nosebleed]

Porn doesn't have to be art. Porn can just be porn. That still doesn't discredit its existence in any way, shape or form.

Again I'm repeating myself but this comes down entirely to people's taste in the genre. You clearly hate sex scenes, and that's fine, but don't bash other people and call them delusional for merely having a different preference.

You are literally trying to justify a personal preference of yours as some universal fact, and I'm sorry to tell you but that won't go anywhere.

And let's assume everything you said is true. That h-scenes give a bad name to vns, that h-scenes are pointless, that they literally only harm the medium. EVEN THEN, that is still no reason for people not to like them.

I think you should just accept the fact there are different audiences in the medium and in this case you're just not part of it. 

[Qrqe]

25 minutes ago, Eai said:

Yes i would like to know where your sources come from. Sales records can vary tremendously depending of the source. But thankfully you completely proove my point. Realta nua sold more than fate stay night DESPITE being +15 without any H scenes.

If h scenes were so important, realta nua would have sold a lot less than fate stay night, and it's the reverse.

I guess some admin is deleting the posts, but I'll say this again;  Realta nua sold more because original game "didnt have voices" , it has nothing with h-scenes. I'd give more examples like how To heart 2's +18 version sold way more than the first release all ages version etc but not going to bother with you anymore. If that Island sales didn't mean anything I guess nothing will.
 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Kaguya
Hiding, not deleting. And editing, now, too. Everyone, please try to keep personal attacks from your posts, lest you risk them getting sent to oblivion.