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2 hours ago, Clephas said:

I honestly am enjoying the Black Eagles route... I mean, I do find it entirely predictable.  However, that is the case with most game stories out there... 

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Edelgard's outlook on life and society make her incompatible with the Church.  As such, and in combination with her various comments during conversations previous, I knew it was inevitable that things would go the way they did.  Since Rhea set off my 'fake' meter almost immediately with her attitudes, I happily joined Edelgard's cause.

 

My problem with that is how the game forces you to make an uninformed choice.

Spoiler

You know jack shit about her plan (since you can't move past having a C with her), and she sounds/looks like a villain straight from a Disney film when it all goes down. It's way too obvious that smth is wrong with Rhea from minute 1, and 90% of your interactions with your father are literally "don't trust Rhea" conversations, but Edelgard also goes full nuts, supposedly trusting you and making you part of her plan (for which Hubert chastises her), then completely leaves you out of it during it's climax and betrayal.

 

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16 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

My problem with that is how the game forces you to make an uninformed choice.

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You know jack shit about her plan (since you can't move past having a C with her), and she sounds/looks like a villain straight from a Disney film when it all goes down. It's way too obvious that smth is wrong with Rhea from minute 1, and 90% of your interactions with your father are literally "don't trust Rhea" conversations, but Edelgard also goes full nuts, supposedly trusting you and making you part of her plan (for which Hubert chastises her), then completely leaves you out of it during it's climax and betrayal.

 

This rolls back into my issues with character development... there weren't enough moments that showed building trust to make me 'feel' the relationship between the protagonist and the students, and that is also why I thought they should have dumped the silent protagonist bit, at least for this entry.  There is just this absolute assumption that the protagonist is this godly super-teacher that put me off more than a little...  I mean, give me a few Onizuka moments to make me feel like I understand how my protagonist is connecting with someone like Edelgard (and the bond conversations don't count, since they are just an episode 'after' the relationship has been formed).  I don't mean go into insane detail... I mean bring life to what happens during the month for each chapter.  Just doing activities, fighting battles, and tutoring... that just isn't enough.

Edit: To be clear, I didn't want anything on the scale of Persona's progression, but I would have liked to see the protagonist interacting with the students without me constantly being the voice for her.  

Spoiler

Also, I should note that I didn't see Edelgard as a villain in this case... there is a distinct difference between a villain and a potential antagonist.   I dunno if you saw it, but it was rather obvious that Edelgard is meant to be an echo of Reinhardt from Legend of the Galactic Heroes... she even has her own Oberstein (Hubert). 

 

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36 minutes ago, Clephas said:

 

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Also, I should note that I didn't see Edelgard as a villain in this case... there is a distinct difference between a villain and a potential antagonist.   I dunno if you saw it, but it was rather obvious that Edelgard is meant to be an echo of Reinhardt from Legend of the Galactic Heroes... she even has her own Oberstein (Hubert). 

 

 

Spoiler

I meant it in the sense that she's all about trusting you, then she suddenly shows up with troops and a guy maniacally screaming "kill anyone who resists!!!!" and gives no explanation to her teacher or friends/students other than "this is something I have decided to do, so step aside or I'll kill you".

The game does a bad job of making it poignant, it's just another "twist reveal" the game springs on you, like a few others before. You have to choose to kill or protect Edelgard without knowing crap about her intentions or situation, and with her looking like she's simply gone full villain. Then, if you choose her, the game activates yet another trap card and shows you that, gasp, Rhea is some horrible monster and the choice was obvious all along!

 

Edited by Jun Inoue
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On 04/08/2019 at 11:19 PM, Jun Inoue said:

Yes, of course, not gonna discuss details out in the open. I'm doing the Black Eagle house route.

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I'm right at the point where Edelgard's gone full Disney villain and decided that she trusts her professor enough to make him part of her plan... except for the small detail of betraying the entire church.

Her storyline's also kind of a mess, probably a result of it being an indivisible part of the game's story, but her context being absolutely optional, so it all comes pretty much out of the clue, and doens't have that much tension to it. You simply don't know enough, about her or the plan, to feel the weight that the whole thing is supposed to have, or to make any informed decisions. What should have been obligatory interactions in the common route, where the game could have showcased both during the story and during missions the difficulties the Empire finds itself in, and how they affect her, you get nothing at all.

 

In regards to what I assume is mostly the common route for everyone, it's all just kind of too spread out. The villains just randomly pop out; we need an enemy for the month's mission? I know take that random NPC and make it so they were actually a villain all along, transformed into them! And, well, speaking of the monthly mission, it's kinda insane if you think about it. This means the story actually moves at a glacial pace. You get a piece of plot, then get thrown 3 "weeks" of filler, and more plot. The first week you explore and chat with everyone, the second week you fight side/optional battles, the third it's seminar/rest, and the fourth story. Rinse and repeat, every month, forever. It's uninspired.

 

Perhaps the most grievous example I can think of is during chapter 10 (I think?), when you confront "Monica", then Solon shows up at the end and banished you to Yu-Gi-Oh's shadow realm. But, before you have half a second to consider it, the game immediately throws you an easy cheat, powers you up and has you escape within the minute, all with a very vaguely-explained price that doesn't really make sense if you think about it. The seriousness of the whole "forbidden spell of Sahras" (or whatever) is risible in hindsight, since the game itself kills the tension of the scene.

At the end of the day, it's just another FE, and my problems simply stem from expecting more from the franchise.

Finally. I had to play it up till this chapter before I was able to comment. For full disclosure, I started and finished with a different house. This had a few consequences (no real spoilers):

Spoiler

If you do not pick Black Eagles, you simply do not get to know Edelgard to the point where you would suspect her -- at most you'd gather she's not a fan of crests. As a result, once the time comes it hits you sideways like a truck.

The game assumes that either you are putting effort into gathering the context on your own, or you're not going to end up on her path. Whether this is truly the case... I don't know. Support conversations build up easily enough and they alone might get you interested in her even when you're not otherwise focused on the monastery.

All of the context that exists is essentially that the major nobles of the empire banded together to render the Emperor powerless, and then invested into implanting a major Crest into one of his children, so that the next Emperor would have a powerful Crest (and they probably hoped to also control the next Emperor as they did their father -- alas, Edelgard and Hubert are stubborn and crafty). Edelgard now intends to change how Crests are perceived so that none have to suffer as her family did for such worthless reasons (she never reveals how, but since she attacks the Church at this point, it is likely through antagonizing the Church).
I wonder how much of what I just said is stuck behind optional content for the path? I think we may only hear the details of this plot from a Hubert-Hanneman support, of all things.

The villains are attempting to infiltrate their main enemy, the church, but I suppose it doesn't feel all that good to have friendly NPCs transform into foes. But say what you will, there is one thing I loved about this that I don't see all too often in other JRPGs. We struck a good blow to the bad guys before the end of the game! Solon was a genuine big part of their forces, and we took them out.
Additionally, and Seteth even mentions this, it is telegraphed that both people that turned out to be disguised disappeared from the monastery for a time, coming back as if everything was normal. It's not like they're pulling these twists out of nowhere, even if you don't find them satisfying (and I can see why one wouldn't).

The pace is a complaint that's understandable. In an effort to allow the player control and customisation over what to do with their characters, they also give them time. You honestly don't need all the time if you're even half decent at the game. Resting gets you from plot mission to plot mission just fine, and exploring the monastery once and doing a paralogue don't stop the story, but they do interrupt the flow of the main one -- I will give you that.
Allowing the player to play how they want once again allows them to ruin their own fun by wanting to see everything and optimise the best they can. Alas.

 

And I don't really get what's bothering you about chapter 10. Bad guys try to stop powerful teacher with unusual Crest, little did they know he had the bloody Goddess inside, whoops dead. I loved the way this played out as a result.

On 05/08/2019 at 10:17 AM, Jun Inoue said:

 

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I meant it in the sense that she's all about trusting you, then she suddenly shows up with troops and a guy maniacally screaming "kill anyone who resists!!!!" and gives no explanation to her teacher or friends/students other than "this is something I have decided to do, so step aside or I'll kill you".

The game does a bad job of making it poignant, it's just another "twist reveal" the game springs on you, like a few others before. You have to choose to kill or protect Edelgard without knowing crap about her intentions or situation, and with her looking like she's simply gone full villain. Then, if you choose her, the game activates yet another trap card and shows you that, gasp, Rhea is some horrible monster and the choice was obvious all along!

 

Finally, I will conclude with "there is nothing obvious about that choice."
I agree, however, that Edelgard could've actually tried a bit harder to justify herself and not look plainly evil. I don't know if she later justifies her secrecy and lack of care, but as of now I see no reason as to why this was this way.

Edit: I have played up to part two, and, in retrospect, I feel I better understand why Edelgard failed to justify herself.
As you saw, she didn't even attempt to do so. Over the course of the school year, and even during the final confrontation where you choose between her and the church, she repeatedly holds herself back from saying she wishes you were with her. In a classic anime manoeuvre, she is racked with guilt as to what she is about to do, and doesn't want to push you down her thorny path. In fact, she doesn't seem to believe you would betray the church (which makes sense given the rest of the game). The most she dares ask is that you turn a blind eye for a bit. The player doesn't get the option to go get a coffee and let the women at it, but from this perspective I better understand why Edelgard wasn't attempting to pull people into what she was about to do. More specifically, she wanted to avoid involving her classmates with whom she spent many good times. She was willing to sacrifice many lives, such as her subjects, but the emotional impact of 'classmates of a year' (when she has precious little nice human relationships otherwise) VS 'random peasants' is obviously different.

 

This is a game where understanding doesn't occur as events come to pass, but only afterwards. My perspective on characters shifts as I see their interactions and learn new background about them. As you say, this will dull the impact of many scenes and make twists seem as if they come out of nowhere, but I appreciate being able to figure things out all over the place, random conversation at a time.
My favourite bit so far is now being able to understand what the heck was up with the opening cutscene.

I have to say; everyone says you should start with Black Eagles, but I vehemently disagree. Terrible house to start with.

Edited by Mr Poltroon
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9 hours ago, Mr Poltroon said:

I wonder how much of what I just said is stuck behind optional content for the path? I think we may only hear the details of this plot from a Hubert-Hanneman support, of all things.

Almost everything. The game stops your relationship with Edelgard at C since everything else is post-time skip. Meaning that, even if you decide to invest in her, you’ll still know crap when shit hits the fan.

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Additionally, and Seteth even mentions this, it is telegraphed that both people that turned out to be disguised disappeared from the monastery for a time, coming back as if everything was normal. It's not like they're pulling these twists out of nowhere, even if you don't find them satisfying (and I can see why one wouldn't).

The problem is that this is literally retconned into the story. You know nothing of this until the very moment it is “discovered” and way too late. And this is one of my biggest complaints. Way too many important things and choices are either retconned or impossible to properly make until after the fact (like choosing to side with Edelgard or the Church).

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And I don't really get what's bothering you about chapter 10. Bad guys try to stop powerful teacher with unusual Crest, little did they know he had the bloody Goddess inside, whoops dead. I loved the way this played out as a result.

It’s exactly because the idea is great that I hated its execution. The event is supposed to be dramatic, we agree on that, yes? The MC goes full “trapped in Jumanji.” The problem here is that the game works really hard to immediately defuse the feeling of urgency, which unsurprisingly works against the drama of the situation. You get locked and your students go “he’s fine, he’ll probably show up in like a minute” and, lo and behold, the goddess throws a cheap deus ex your way and you’re out and about. Why do I call it cheap? Because the “sacrifice” isn’t clear. You give up smth you didn’t know you could give up; she simply says, “it’s fine I can break you out of here, but we won’t be able to keep talking like now”. Why? Because you’ll “fuse for real”. So, you were sort of half-fused…? And completely merging means she’ll be a part of you but lose the ability to talk to you? Why? How?

More grievously, this happens in literal seconds. Instead of making you, the player, feel like this is a huge problem to overcome, before you have had time to consider the implications of being trapped for eternity in this space, you’re out. It’s funny when I consider that this would have been an amazing point for the time-skip. Instead, the game shoots itself in the foot by killing a cool scene and squanders its potential in favour or doing the time-skip later on, in a really weird place.

9 hours ago, Mr Poltroon said:

Edit: I have played up to part two, and, in retrospect, I feel I better understand why Edelgard failed to justify herself.

As you saw, she didn't even attempt to do so. Over the course of the school year, and even during the final confrontation where you choose between her and the church, she repeatedly holds herself back from saying she wishes you were with her. In a classic anime manoeuvre, she is racked with guilt as to what she is about to do, and doesn't want to push you down her thorny path. In fact, she doesn't seem to believe you would betray the church (which makes sense given the rest of the game). The most she dares ask is that you turn a blind eye for a bit. The player doesn't get the option to go get a coffee and let the women at it, but from this perspective I better understand why Edelgard wasn't attempting to pull people into what she was about to do. More specifically, she wanted to avoid involving her classmates with whom she spent many good times. She was willing to sacrifice many lives, such as her subjects, but the emotional impact of 'classmates of a year' (when she has precious little nice human relationships otherwise) VS 'random peasants' is obviously different.

But she does not. The immediate mission doesn’t allow you to choose until you’ve won, and the literal implications of her orders are “kill my professor and classmates”, since you don’t get to even consider surrender. She phrases it as “kill anyone who gets in our way”, but you and the class are literally the only people outside of Rhea in there. Edelgard opens to you before this whole ordeal, even takes you to her coronation, but can’t bring herself to actually take the step to make you part of her plan. Is it because she doesn’t want to pull you into that whole mess? Kinda doubtful, when her entire plan is "kill the professor and classmates unless they are ok with me literally going full crazed villain in their faces and just let us desecrate the sacred tomb they have been told to protect."

I just don't buy it, you know? Almost every single one of my problems/complains could have been avoided or done much better with a little extra work, and most if not all the pivotal plot points of the story (up to where I am right now) completely fall apart when under scrutiny. @Mr Poltroon

Edited by Jun Inoue
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8 hours ago, Jun Inoue said:

Almost everything. The game stops your relationship with Edelgard at C since everything else is post-time skip. Meaning that, even if you decide to invest in her, you’ll still know crap when shit hits the fan.

Yes, but you don't get those details by progressing with your relationship with Edelgard, either. They come from other conversations or after you've chosen.

8 hours ago, Jun Inoue said:

The problem is that this is literally retconned into the story. You know nothing of this until the very moment it is “discovered” and way too late. And this is one of my biggest complaints. Way too many important things and choices are either retconned or impossible to properly make until after the fact (like choosing to side with Edelgard or the Church).

I have no idea who you've been talking to, but everyone and their mother mentioned Tomas recently returned to the monastery after being gone for a while in the early chapters. It's just not mentioned in any story segment.

8 hours ago, Jun Inoue said:

It’s exactly because the idea is great that I hated its execution. The event is supposed to be dramatic, we agree on that, yes? The MC goes full “trapped in Jumanji.” The problem here is that the game works really hard to immediately defuse the feeling of urgency, which unsurprisingly works against the drama of the situation. You get locked and your students go “he’s fine, he’ll probably show up in like a minute” and, lo and behold, the goddess throws a cheap deus ex your way and you’re out and about. Why do I call it cheap? Because the “sacrifice” isn’t clear. You give up smth you didn’t know you could give up; she simply says, “it’s fine I can break you out of here, but we won’t be able to keep talking like now”. Why? Because you’ll “fuse for real”. So, you were sort of half-fused…? And completely merging means she’ll be a part of you but lose the ability to talk to you? Why? How?

More grievously, this happens in literal seconds. Instead of making you, the player, feel like this is a huge problem to overcome, before you have had time to consider the implications of being trapped for eternity in this space, you’re out. It’s funny when I consider that this would have been an amazing point for the time-skip. Instead, the game shoots itself in the foot by killing a cool scene and squanders its potential in favour or doing the time-skip later on, in a really weird place.

You are asking Why and How magic works. If you're fine with Crests and Faith and Reason existing and creating unexplainable phenomenon, surely you'd be fine with this too? At any rate, at this point in the game the player really doesn't know much more than that Sothis was capable of independent interaction with you and that's what has to be sacrificed. Indeed, I do not see why this would bother you.

Spending more time contemplating being stuck in a void, huh? I'll be completely honest with you, my thoughts during this scene were no more than "I want to see how we quickly break out of this inescapable void and flabbergast the bad guys!". The game spends so much time telling us how great we are (since we can rewind time and do everything perfectly) and we have a Goddess working with us, I was prepared for instant return in the style of "Actually, you never had a chance. Sorry bad guy."
Clearly we were looking for different things here, and thankfully for me, the game sided with my mindset on this one.

The timeskip is situated in such a way that it happens right as war breaks out. I will refrain from commenting on the placement of the timeskip because I think other routes paint a better picture of it than this one.

8 hours ago, Jun Inoue said:

But she does not. The immediate mission doesn’t allow you to choose until you’ve won, and the literal implications of her orders are “kill my professor and classmates”, since you don’t get to even consider surrender. She phrases it as “kill anyone who gets in our way”, but you and the class are literally the only people outside of Rhea in there. Edelgard opens to you before this whole ordeal, even takes you to her coronation, but can’t bring herself to actually take the step to make you part of her plan. Is it because she doesn’t want to pull you into that whole mess? Kinda doubtful, when her entire plan is "kill the professor and classmates unless they are ok with me literally going full crazed villain in their faces and just let us desecrate the sacred tomb they have been told to protect."

The Holy Tomb was a secret location that they didn't know about nor had access to until this exact point in time. The attack had to occur now, and Edelgard's personality and obsession with control made her choose the "show them how serious we are so they stand aside" over "play nice and show weakness so they let us raid the tomb".

Now then. I agree that I'd prefer we got to choose to stand aside but... Byleth is really attached to the Church, and Edelgard's powerplay in an attempt to settle things quickly makes him decide to stop the raiding first and ask questions later. Even at that point, Edelgard, again, is unwilling to ask for help or justify herself. She is a stubborn goat with a personality not exactly well-suited to making allies. She says it again and again that she sees everyone (but Byleth) as inferior, and how that makes it difficult to truly bond, and how her position of power makes it so she feels she can't show weakness.

Say what you will, but characters have flaws and Edelgard's obsession with power and showing no weakness really screw her in this "Let's not look totally evil" department. If you've played any further than this choice, you soon see how she finally feels like she can show some vulnerability to Byleth, after always keeping everything inside.

I will agree with one thing: The player does not really have enough to make a choice on... except that's the point. Byleth sides with Edelgard because they believe in her; Byleth decides they don't want to kill Edelgard, or let her be killed. It's not a "Who's right" decision. It was an emotional one. That's also something I quite like. For all you know, you're siding with the villain!
As an aside, I really believe they should have made it harder for siding with Edelgard to be anyone's first route. It really isn't well-suited for a starting experience, in my opinion.

 

Edit:
Now that I had a night's sleep, I feel like my reply does nothing more than explain why I'm fine with things as they are, and does not acknowledge the idea that the game would be better with some changes, as you suggest. There are a few cases I agree, most clearly of all the mission where you fight Edelgard and then get to make a choice. I would've much preferred the ability to stand aside. I can understand Byleth's choices here, but I don't think it would've been far-fetched for him to be conflicted and not really do much, assuming you've been pursuing Edelgard with your supports and interactions.

Initially I thought that the monthly mission scenario led to odd situations, as the urgency of situation's wasn't properly conveyed, but that isn't quite true. Upon replay, I now see that while most situations are important, they equally require preparation. The most urgent one was the kidnapping, and it entirely depends on your own speed at finding the kidnapper. Being able to construct your own pace is very important for this game's enjoyability, so I don't think changing the month to month structure would be wise.

I'm fine with Tomas and Monica.

I also think like the scene where he fuses with Sothis is exactly what I wanted out of it. An epic moment, not a dramatic one. I'm not certain if more time in the void would've made the experience better for me...

(I may have referred to Byleth with male pronouns over the course of my post because mine usually takes that form)

@Jun Inoue

I believe I am getting a clearer picture of what you didn't like, and it does seem like a fair bit of your concerns did not affect me or I manage to explain them away within the story to the extent that I am satisfied.

Edited by Mr Poltroon
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  • 1 month later...

Still with Yugioh Duel Link here, because it's the only game that I can play in my handphone and my very old laptop here have a lot of limitation to play newer game (Non VN). And yeah I'm still not spent the real world money yet if you curious, although if you want to win a lot of PvP you definitely need to shill some cash in order to make a meta deck that can almost consistently always winning (Currently it's Desperado Barrel Dragon deck, and I would need to spent some money to obtain two more of the core card).

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  • 2 weeks later...
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  • 4 weeks later...

Ys VIII on my PS4; currently on the third chapter and am interested in the past stuff now that I can play as Dana. Also...

Spoiler

Am I the only one who was happy when that fat noble died at the end of chapter 2 and was basically saying "Why?" when prior to that every character was insisting we try to save him? I know they're all good people, but the game never gives us any reason to care what happens to the guy. He doesn't even help out and counts as a nonfactor for clearing areas to explore; so there isn't even a pragmatic reason to save him.

On the Switch, resuming my second playthrough of Fire Emblem Three Houses, doing the Golden Deer this time (first playthrough was Blue Lions).

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anyone ever try "EVERYBODY's GOLF" (PS4) ? you can make up some surprisingly decent facsimiles of favorite Anime characters with it's character creation system;

 

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it just dawned on me that the EVERYBODY's GOLF Mikuru Asahina shown above is a bit out of date,

and that i've actually tweaked her accuracy quite a bit in the time since;

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Edited by Tasuke
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