Gahkthun Review Discussion

[Kaguya]

Hey, it's the first time I was negative, for a change. What did you think of it? 

http://reviews.fuwanovel.net/2016/05/09/gahkthun-of-the-golden-lightning-2/

[Dergonu]

Hmm, glad I decided to stall this one. Bought it close to release, but it never really interested me once I got into it, and I just fell off after 20 minutes or so of reading. Always thought I would go back into it, but based off this I'd say this VN is definitely not for me.

Good, honest review Kaguya.

[Yuuko]

Just now, Dergonu said:

Hmm, glad I decided to stall this one. Bought it close to release, but it never really interested me once I got into it, and I just fell off after 20 minutes or so of reading. Always thought I would go back into it, but based off this I'd say this VN is definitely not for me.

Good, honest review Kaguya.

Good that you spent all your money on it though  

[Dergonu]

Just now, Kiriririri said:

Good that you spent all your money on it though  

I know right  

Well meh. It went to Mangagamer at least. They are my favorite company when it comes to VN localizations. Not that broken up over it.

[DarkZedge]

As you know Kaguya, I ended up dropping this one entirelly and I still can't bring myself to pick it back up.

Sharnoth on the other hand is going great!  also great review. So many people talk about this game and regard it as a masterpiece and I still don't understand why.

15 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

I know right  

Well meh. It went to Mangagamer at least. They are my favorite company when it comes to VN localizations. Not that broken up over it.

That's the right attitude at least MG will use that money to help other projects of their own or advertising.

[Tyrael]

My favourite work of yours to date, Kaguya.

[spademan]

f

 

 

 

 

Kidding. Personally, I like your review. Don't see why so many people praise this vn but to each their own. ended up dropping after about an hour or two, and glad I have no reason to regret it.

[solidbatman]

Now we have the circle jerk review, and the anti jerk review. Truly, FuwaReviews has reached new heights 

[Nosebleed]

I never understood the Liar-Soft circlejerk. To this day there's only a game by them that I wholeheartedly enjoyed, and it's only because it has nothing to do with the stuff they usually make. I'm glad I didn't bother with Gahkthun.

[VirginSmasher]

I've already said my opinion on this VN, but I'll just repeat it. I found it to be pretty mediocre and it sucks in terms of quality for each chapter. 

[Eclipsed]

- Unpolished characters with little direction and unbelieavable motivations

- Weak story

- The game's structure works against it

Exactly my problem I had with Shikkoks no Sharnaths, which I only tanked because Mary was cute, so I guess I shall continue stalling Gokthoon 

~~
 

2 hours ago, Dergonu said:

Hmm, glad I decided to stall this one. Bought it close to release, but it never really interested me once I got into it, and I just fell off after 20 minutes or so of reading. Always thought I would go back into it, but based off this I'd say this VN is definitely not for me.

Good, honest review Kaguya.

Exactly what happened to me, so
Uhh, hi five?  

[Nerathim]

What bothers me with this review is that I get the impression the VN was judged based on a set of already existing criterias that obviously doesn't fit with every kind of fiction. It feels like the reviewer expected stuff that wasn't to be expected. What stands out the most in my opinion, and what sums up my thoughts quite well is this sentence : " It removes any trace of surprise from the story, as well as any excitement for what’s coming next, and it gets really boring really quickly", I wonder when the effect of surprise became an absolute requirement to write a good story. And there are many other claims like that one in the review.

A very superficial read in my opinion as I can hardly see any good faith in it, not a single line is dedicated to the interpretation of the story and its themes or even to the questioning of the author's intent; when something doesn't seem right at first sight then it's flat out bad. It's a bit sad. What a Beautiful is a series that tend to be a lot more symbolic than explicit and I feel like the reviewer tried to weigh an elephant with a ruler instead of a weighing scale

I might be a little harsh but I found the " I definitely wouldn’t recommend it to a normal reader" to be rather unpleasant.

[Darklord Rooke]

19 minutes ago, Nerathim said:

What bothers me with this review is that I get the impression the VN was judged based on a set of already existing criterias that obviously doesn't fit with every kind of fiction. It feels like the reviewer expected stuff that wasn't to be expected. What stands out the most in my opinion, and what sums up my thoughts quite well is this sentence : " It removes any trace of surprise from the story, as well as any excitement for what’s coming next, and it gets really boring really quickly", I wonder when the effect of surprise became an absolute requirement to write a good story. And there are many other claims like that one in the review.

A very superficial read in my opinion as I can hardly see any good faith in it, not a single line is dedicated to the interpretation of the story and its themes or even to the questioning of the author's intent; when something doesn't seem right at first sight then it's flat out bad. It's a bit sad. What a Beautiful is a series that tend to be a lot more symbolic than explicit and I feel like the reviewer tried to weigh an elephant with a ruler instead of a weighing scale

Poor characterisation, a bloated story, a structure which is too rigid, a lack of suspense in fight scenes due to overpowered characters and therefore fight scenes which drag - these are valid points made by Kaguya (keeping in mind reviews are opinion.) Characterisation is important in all forms of fiction, and too many SoL scenes in a story with a plot will usually negatively affect that plot. It’s usually considered a negative. So I'm not understanding that point about criticisms which don't apply to every kind of fiction.

I suppose that the review lacks discussing themes is one valid critique of the review. One thing I will say about the VN community’s tastes is that they tend to over-estimate the value of ideas and underestimate execution. It’s very similar to fanfiction in that regard, fanfiction traditionally tended to be more about cool ideas. The VN community embraces the same concept – Ever 17 was good because whoa, plot twist! Never mind that most of it is dull because the writer can’t pace or execute worth a damn.

Ideas and themes are great when they add complexity to an already engaging story. To Kaguya, this story was not engaging. The idea that contemplating the themes would automatically transform a poor score to a great score is wrong, imo. But anyway, I like that there are more than one viewpoint about VNs on offer, negative reviews offer give a reader more information than positive ones. This review is very valid as an opinion, which is what a review is TBH.

[Decay]

1 minute ago, Rooke said:

I suppose that the review lacks discussing themes is one valid critique of the review. One thing I will say about the VN community’s tastes is that they tend to over-estimate the value of ideas and underestimate execution. It’s very similar to fanfiction in that regard, fanfiction traditionally tended to be more about cool ideas. The VN community embraces the same concept – Ever 17 was good because whoa, plot twist! Never mind that most of it is dull because the writer can’t pace or execute worth a damn.

See also: Root Double. 

[Nerathim]

Quote

Poor characterisation, a bloated story, a structure which is too rigid, a lack of suspense in fight scenes due to overpowered characters and therefore fight scenes which drag

The characterisation of Tesla and Neon was done well enough if you ask me, and I don't see the necessity of according too much importance to the other characters who obviously don't need a lot of attention and don't fail at playing their part imo. About the structure, it fits the visual novel really well and instead of taking it as a whole you should look at every chapter as a single story (even if they are related to each others), I don't know if you saw Mushishi but they're similar in the way that chapters very rarely follow each other directly and instead they feel more "distanced". You're reading a story with small stories in it, and each story in Gahkthun delivers the same moral (if I remember correctly). And fight scenes are used to end these stories, you can say they drag but at the same time you can consider that every "enemy" has to face some kind of struggle against the Radiance (Tesla) and everything it represents, if I wanted to further prove my point I'd have to give my own interpretation for each battle but I guess you get the general idea. A lot of the stuff that is criticized is, imo, intentional AND justified, that's what is the most important; if you can find a meaning in a lot of stuff that may not click with you, well, it won't change the fact that you don't like it but you can't say it's inherently flawed as the author obviously had something in mind and didn't write about nothing. The fact that he didn't like it whether he reflected on what bothered on him or not doesn't annoy me at all but if you write a review you have to be conscious that your standards aren't everyone else's and even if it's still nothing more than an opinion, reviews are still taken very seriously and that's a shame.

 

[Arcadeotic]

Well, I won't bash the review as it was Kaguya's honest thoughts, but I still love the title to death

I'd give my own impressions on it, but I've already done so a couple months back

It was a rather enjoyable read

[Darklord Rooke]

I enjoy listening people who know what they're talking about. Unfortunately VN reviewers who are insightful are few and far between. I don't mean that as a criticism, it's just that to criticise a story effectively you really need a solid understanding of writing techniques and not many people in the VN community do.

Except I just found one. He reviewed Gahkthun and shit he's good. And oh look, he's a writer as well. Totally not surprised.

Koestl posted a remark on twitter about the review page, I should point out the remark he was referring to was in the comment section and not in the review itself. What did the review say? It was harsh. Harsh but fair, IMO.

Quote

Gahkthun of the Golden Lightning, or at least as the portion of it that I managed to read through, exemplifies many of the things I find frustrating about visual novels. In most narrative art forms, it’s basically a given that less is more, and that the text should respect the reader’s time. Wandering asides that don’t contribute to the work’s core goals are trimmed – lines that exist to celebrate themselves instead of furthering the narrative, themes, or our understanding of the characters are excised. “Kill your darlings” is a truism, but it’s a truism for a reason. Much of the writing we are most fond of ends up being the first to be cut, because it serves our own self-indulgent style tics as opposed to the needs of the text.

Visual novels don’t seem terribly impressed by this foundational piece of storytelling wisdom, or at least, the ones I’ve run into certainly don’t. They ramble and wander, creating words seemingly for the sake of having those words exist. Words don’t have to justify themselves here. Every word deserves its day.

...

Basically every line of Gahkthun (again, at least as far as I got into it) earns itself several repetitions. Characters talk in circles about simple topics, as you might expect, but even worse are the flat monologues by the narrator. The visual novel’s first major scene involves a man cursing a ringing bell, which goes on (and on and on and on) for dozens of lines about how sinister the bell is, and how haughty the man. Even if these ideas were rendered in beautiful prose (they aren’t – the text has a rhythm, but it’s simply staggered and repetitive, and doesn’t employ the kind of evocative imagery, internal melody, or graceful phrasing that might bring this sort of repetition to life), they still wouldn’t earn this level of continuous re-emphasis. And this trend continues through every other element of the text.

...

So to hit on another relatively beginner tip, starting with a dramatic cold open is always a risky gambit. Yes, it means you can start with something really exciting – but it also means you give the audience nothing to actually hold on to. When you’re starting with an exciting event that lacks context, you’re actually making a bet that your execution of one isolated, climactic scene is more likely to hook the audience than laying the groundwork to make that audience care about all your future events. Editors and agents tend to actively discourage this kind of prologue – it’s a famous trick, but it’s an inherently risky one, and it undercuts the kind of meaningful, grounded investment that will truly make the audience care about your story.

Gahkthun starts with four of these cold opens in a row, all of which lack context, none of which provide an inherent reason to keep reading. There’s a guy named Tesla, and also a mysterious man who hates a bell, and there was once a fairy tale? Those are just empty words – if I don’t already care about your world, and I’m not already convinced you have the skill to tell me something I want to hear, I am not going to be compelled to continue simply because I’ve been shown some scenes I don’t understand. Every narrative I haven’t read contains scenes I don’t understand. You don’t hook me by showing me those – you hook me by showing why I should care.

By opening with these many meaningless prologues, Gahkthun essentially dares the reader to care. And the text that follows continues in that vein – we’re introduced to our apparent heroine, Neon Scalar, but her story proceeds with that same constantly repeating text, continuously challenging the audience on whether they really wish to continue. There may well be a great plot hiding in Gahkthun, but when you bury your story in prose this labored and purple, it is not actually the same story. The prose isn’t simply the vehicle through which stories are transmitted – the prose is the message itself. Whether or not an audience is engaged or moved by your ideas is a consequence less of the Things That Happen than how well you convey the experience of those events in writing.

...

The prose is purple, the lines repeat themselves, and everything is stretched to the point where it loops into some inverse-of-pacing negaverse. No cool story could compel me to fight through that writing, and as I said above, the writing is the story, anyway. Neon repeating everything she thinks half a dozen times doesn’t just make it take longer for anything to happen – it makes me lose faith in her as a believable character, because it doesn’t resemble a convincing interior voice. Neon describing the landmarks of the city ad nauseum doesn’t just make Gahkthun a struggle to read – it means that by the time we actually visit those landmarks, the story has lost the momentum that might make their appearance exciting in the first place. If you have some cool ideas, save them. Write ten thousand bad pages, realize you’re using too many words. Try again.

Now, yes it's harsh but it's also interesting. I think (and I'm ignorant here on Japanese writing, but I do know a thing or two about its English counterpart) that the differences between what is considered good in Japan and good in English is one of the most interesting things about translated works. And this article seems to show the extent of those differences.

It also reveals one of the reasons why most translated works are looked down upon. Japanese is incredibly different to English, incredibly so, and a lot of translators wander into the field of fiction translation without fully understanding (or even partially understanding) what makes 'good writing' in English. And no, it's not all about 'grammar'. And if a translator doesn't understand, then they may very well be caught by surprise at claims of substandard prose.

And yes, I have heard the statements saying "Gahkthun's a poem" and "the repetition is intentional", but that does nothing to invalidate the points made. It's really a very insightful article. Insightful article's make me giddy with motivation, and I must confess I'm kinda bouncing up and down in my seat right now. Very inspirational article  

http://wrongeverytime.com/2016/08/01/gahkthun-of-the-golden-lightning/ 

[Darklord Rooke]

I should point out that “cold openings” are a matter of opinion, and I don’t agree with his statement. All openings are ‘risky’ and I don’t think a ‘cold open’ is any riskier than many of the others. In fact, prologues themselves are discouraged these days, and there’s advice going around that if you want to write a prologue make it a cold open rather than an info dump. I think we all remember when the info-dump prologue was a ‘thing’ in fantasy, and everybody would just skip the damn thing.

But 4 cold openings might be taking things too far. I can understand his pique, when I read the demo I thought the beginning dragged a little.

[Vorathiel]

Wow, this whole text, especially with screenshots just got me pumped up to read this VN. This style looks great, and if the story will not be stupid, or overlly boring, I would probably love it.
also
 

Quote

No cool story could compel me to fight through that writing, and as I said above, the writing is the story, anyway.

This is stupid.

[Darklord Rooke]

4 hours ago, Vorathiel said:

Wow, this whole text, especially with screenshots just got me pumped up to read this VN. This style looks great, and if the story will not be stupid, or overlly boring, I would probably love it.
also
 

This is stupid.

The bits of Gahkthun I've read I enjoyed also (I am about 3 years behind on my VN reading. I have, like, ZERO time  ) Reviews are just opinions, so despite what some people say we'll never get a situation where we receive 'objective reviews'. But I found what he said to be interesting. Even the bit you think is stupid xD

That bit where he said 'the writing is the story,' I believe he's applying literature standards to the game. When talking about literature, it's hard to separate the writing from the story, it's an important part of the experience. But with genre fiction the advise is to make the writing invisible, and making the writing 'stand out' is ... not so encouraged. That's not to say that bad writing is tolerated, but it's clear that if the writing is invisible it's not as integral to the experience.

Just my interpretation. 

[solidbatman]

6 hours ago, Rooke said:

I enjoy listening people who know what they're talking about. Unfortunately VN reviewers who are insightful are few and far between. I don't mean that as a criticism, it's just that to criticise a story effectively you really need a solid understanding of writing techniques and not many people in the VN community do.

 

You don't really need to understand writing techniques to write a review. The main thing I ask of the Reviews team is to simply ask themselves if they enjoyed the VN. Then to go from there. Too many reviewers, VN or not, fall into this trap where they attempt to sound smart, using theories, "techniques" among other things to create a long winded review that acts like some sort of literary paper. FuwaReviews is more aimed at a newer audience. After all, Fuwanovel's goal is to "makes visual novels popular in the west." So, for my reviews, I simply seek to explain why I enjoyed, or did not enjoy a title, and why. I prefer to spend my time looking at the content, not the style of writing. In my experience, the people outside of the community, who have read FuwaReviews, continue to use our site, as opposed to any others featured in our feeds on the hub. 

So just like Gakhthun, that review is long winded  He repeats himself over and over, just like the VN