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Sayori's views on censorship


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So this is something that happened on Fakku a few days ago:

https://www.fakku.net/forums/subscriptions/craving-scolding-removal#4598636 (NSFW)

This really puzzled me. Why would she (or indeed any other artist) resent the idea of having her/his content published as it was meant to be?

Could this be connected to the fact that so many visual novels keep their mosaics when they're officially localized?

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Mmm... probably because mosaic-censoring has become a part of otaku H-artist culture.  For better or worse, the Japanese are fundamentally 'conservative', in the sense that they hate changes in the status quo.  In her mind, the 'censored' form is the form it is meant to be in, most likely. 

Edit: I hate to say it, but I actually understand the mentality that would drive that kind of thinking.  Basically the thought would be 'this is the line I don't step over, and if I do, I am a true degenerate', and by Japanese industry standards, it would be unethical for an artist to produce uncensored hentai art. 

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8 minutes ago, Clephas said:

Mmm... probably because mosaic-censoring has become a part of otaku H-artist culture.  For better or worse, the Japanese are fundamentally 'conservative', in the sense that they hate changes in the status quo.  In her mind, the 'censored' form is the form it is meant to be in, most likely. 

Edit: I hate to say it, but I actually understand the mentality that would drive that kind of thinking.  Basically the thought would be 'this is the line I don't step over, and if I do, I am a true degenerate', and by Japanese industry standards, it would be unethical for an artist to produce uncensored hentai art. 

Well said. Still, wtf Japan

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26 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

Well said. Still, wtf Japan

*shrugs* A lot of Japanese think the same thing about Western cultural standards and mores.  If you think about it, the concept of romantic marriage didn't even exist in Japanese culture until the nineteenth century, lol.  Weird sub-cultural mores appear anywhere where such a subculture comes into being and are fundamentally incomprehensible to someone outside that culture.

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3 minutes ago, Clephas said:

*shrugs* A lot of Japanese think the same thing about Western cultural standards and mores.  If you think about it, the concept of romantic marriage didn't even exist in Japanese culture until the nineteenth century, lol.  Weird sub-cultural mores appear anywhere where such a subculture comes into being and are fundamentally incomprehensible to someone outside that culture.

True, but I wasn't saying we're any less weird now, was I? Weirdness is everywhere, inherently

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1 hour ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

So this is something that happened on Fakku a few days ago:

https://www.fakku.net/forums/subscriptions/craving-scolding-removal#4598636

This really puzzled me. Why would she (or indeed any other artist) resent the idea of having her/his content published as it was meant to be?

Could this be connected to the fact that so many visual novels keep their mosaics when they're officially localized?

I find that it's very often when someone thinks they know what an artist truly intends, and how their art is "meant to be," that they are way off. This goes for a lot of the censorship conversations that have been making the rounds, lately. Please try to avoid getting into the mindset of "They're ruining the original vision, this isn't how it's meant to be!" because you REALLY don't know. You do not have a better idea of how something is meant to be than the original creators.

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one minute they are drawing tentacle rape to some loli and the next one they dont want to show their draws uncensored, that's the Japanese thinking for you :wafuu: it's a puzzle for us westerns, but hey it makes sense for them so who are we to judge them, in the end is her decision (her art) no matter the reasons behind it we need to accept it.

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8 hours ago, Decay said:

I find that it's very often when someone thinks they know what an artist truly intends, and how their art is "meant to be," that they are way off. This goes for a lot of the censorship conversations that have been making the rounds, lately. Please try to avoid getting into the mindset of "They're ruining the original vision, this isn't how it's meant to be!" because you REALLY don't know. You do not have a better idea of how something is meant to be than the original creators.

Apologies for my phrasing, You are completely right, but by 'as it was meant to be', I meant as it was originally drawn.

My mindset is simply this:

Art is always drawn as a whole, and a frame of a (hentai) manga is no exception. It is drawn to be aesthetically pleasing as it is, and that includes the genitals. Otherwise, the artist would not bother to draw them in the first place, at least not with the level of detail that most hentai artists do. I read the chapter in question before it was deleted, and I must say Sayori draws some splendid dicks

And no, I do not have a better idea, I have a different idea, and I'm entitled to it

 

8 hours ago, Deep Blue said:

one minute they are drawing tentacle rape to some loli and the next one they dont want to show their draws uncensored, that's the Japanese thinking for you :wafuu: it's a puzzle for us westerns, but hey it makes sense for them so who are we to judge them, in the end is her decision (her art) no matter the reasons behind it we need to accept it.

True, but if you, as a Hentai artist, want to enter into the western market, the least you can try to do is acknowledge our standards, that's all I'm saying.

But yes, her work=her decision, I accept that

Edited by john 'mr. customer' smith
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Uncensoring a piece of work is creating a derivative work. A derivative work changes the work in question. This change can impact how an artist is perceived or viewed, and can impact their reputation. Sayori is quite famous and maybe worries how this might affect her (?), so has exercised her right to control derivative works. Nothing really groundbreaking here, or anything to get worked up over, TBH.

Anyway I'm a little shoddy on law, but I think what I said is accurate, and you can't fault the reasoning behind this also. The people publishing this modified stuff won't have to deal with any repercussions that modification may create, so they really have little moral standing here.

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10 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Uncensoring a piece of work is creating a derivative work. A derivative work changes the work in question. This change can impact how an artist is perceived or viewed, and can impact their reputation. Sayori is quite famous and maybe worries how this might affect her (?), so has exercised her right to control derivative works. Nothing really groundbreaking here, or anything to get worked up over, TBH.

Anyway I'm a little shoddy on law, but I think what I said is accurate, and you can't fault the reasoning behind this also. The people publishing this modified stuff won't have to deal with any repercussions that modification may create, so they really have little moral standing here.

In Japan, it is actually illegal to create uncensored hentai.  Another perspective is that, by a particularly anal-retentive prosecutor, her allowing such a 'derivative work' to be created might be interpreted as being a passive accessory to a crime. 

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1 minute ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

Nope, I read the chapter before it was deleted, and she doesn't

It was a joke :Pstill most of the time genitals in vns look really bad and unrealistic, is like they dont actually know how the anatomy of a human body is... (yeah you can tell even with the mosaics)

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7 hours ago, Deep Blue said:

It was a joke :Pstill most of the time genitals in vns look really bad and unrealistic, is like they dont actually know how the anatomy of a human body is... (yeah you can tell even with the mosaics)

Not surprising, considering it's really hard to get reference material

 

Also, I don't think this case is all that representative of the average Artist's mindset. Most artists approached by Fakku accept it anyway(as far as it know), and there are even well known artists approaching them now:

Quote

Today we're happy to announce that we'll be bringing you Let's Do It (title subject to change), the debut title from saitom!

This is a special book because we were contacted by the artist themselves about publishing their work! It's exciting to think that word of our releases are spreading in Japan, and that more artists are acknowledging their overseas fans. Late last year when we were first approached about localizing the book, we knew that it was popular, but we didn't know it would turn out to be one of the best selling titles of 2015, even placing first on some lists!

It has also received praise from people within the industry, such as being endorsed by Gen Urobuchi, creator of the Fate/Zero light novels and series composition/script writer for the Puella Magi Madoka Magica anime. The book itself contains guest illustrations by Okama, the author of Hanafuda, and Shigeto Koyama, whose work includes projects like the Gurren Lagann TV series (design works) and the Rebuild of Evangelion movies (design, key animation).
 

 

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14 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

Not surprising, considering it's really hard to get reference material

lol xD
well even as a joke, there is plenty of material available to look for if you want to know how to draw, a lot of artists recommend to buy medicine books for that reason, not just for the anatomy but for proportions, and other types of stuff that I know nothing of because drawing is not my thing :P . I know some artists that they do their researches in medicine books, I had a long discussion with a member of this forum a while ago regarding  this topic she was really obsessed xD on how bad the draws of genitals are in general in vns(she is an amateur artist), specially dicks, she also said the same thing about medicine books.

Edited by Deep Blue
grammar :F
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23 minutes ago, Clephas said:

In Japan, it is actually illegal to create uncensored hentai.  Another perspective is that, by a particularly anal-retentive prosecutor, her allowing such a 'derivative work' to be created might be interpreted as being a passive accessory to a crime. 

As far as I know, production of unmosaiced porn is legal.  Distribution is not.  The problem is that unmosaiced porn could be reimported back into Japan.  That makes some Japanese companies (like minori) squeamish.

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Just now, sanahtlig said:

As far as I know, production of unmosaiced porn is legal.  Distribution is not.  The problem is that unmosaiced porn could be reimported into Japan.  That makes some Japanese companies (like minori) squeamish.

Makes sense... the Japanese tend to think in terms of risk-control rather than risk-taking.

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8 minutes ago, Clephas said:

Makes sense... the Japanese tend to think in terms of risk-control rather than risk-taking.

Keep in mind that 90% of Japanese VN companies that have done business with the West had no problem demosaicing their games.  But we see with Sekai Project's releases that there is still considerable resistance on the Japanese side to releasing unmosaiced HCG unless they're pressured by English publishers.  It appears that mosaics can be a deal-breaking issue between JP devs and English publishers.  JAST broke off negotiations with GIGA over it.

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11 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Keep in mind that 90% of Japanese VN companies that have done business with the West had no problem demosaicing their games.  But we see with Sekai Project's releases that there is still considerable resistance on the Japanese side to releasing unmosaiced HCG unless they're pressured by English publishers.  It appears that mosaics can be a deal-breaking issue between JP devs and English publishers.  JAST broke off negotiations with GIGA over it.

To be honest, I'm not capable of understanding the obsession with de-censoring.  This is mostly because ero isn't a priority issue for me, though I do have my fetishes. 

Also, even if they partnered with Giga, that would just mean we would see maybe one Baldr game ten years from now...

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After the whole censoring theater with MangaGamer's Minori titles, I'm not surprised at all about this. Some people in the business are simply extremely paranoid that the uncensored art might get back to Japan and that they are facing a lawsuit because of that. I once heard that a director of a company that released uncensored art went to prison because of that, so I do have some understanding that they don't want to take unnecessary risks.

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I think I vaguely agree with something that was mentioned earlier, saying that censorship is just part of the medium. To throw my own personal thoughts on the matter, due to what I'm used to, any time I'm reading/looking at a drawn h-scene that isn't censored is slightly jarring for me. Hypothetically, if censorship wasn't a thing in the medium and something was censored, it would likely have the same effect.

Whatever her concerns may be, as far as I'm concerned she's the artist, and if she's uncomfortable with the decensoring for whatever reason, she has every right to pull it.

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5 minutes ago, AaronIsCrunchy said:

 To throw my own personal thoughts on the matter, due to what I'm used to, any time I'm reading/looking at a drawn h-scene that isn't censored is slightly jarring for me.

lol, I feel the same way... at least, ever since I lost my last interest in 3D sex...  which was five or six years ago (maybe longer).  I'm not interested in realism in anime art, after all...lol

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