Sayori's views on censorship

[john 'mr. customer' smith]

8 minutes ago, AaronIsCrunchy said:

any time I'm reading/looking at a drawn h-scene that isn't censored is slightly jarring for me.

Yeah, I was a bit like that too at some point, but I've been using Fakku for a while now and I'm totally used to it

[Nosebleed]

It's easy to figure out why this happens. Clephas basically nailed it, Japanese people have this line when it comes to obscenity that they won't cross, and many artists are very comfortable with the censorship they use in their work already. I see many illustrators that even censor their work in playful, less intrusive ways rather than being submitted to the horrors of some forms of censorship. Ultimately it all comes down to a fear of breaking the norm and possibly get in trouble for it (legally or not).

What's interesting is that pornography in Japan didn't always need to be censored. The only reason it's censored right now is due to the way they interpret this clause in the criminal code that states it's forbidden to distribute indicent material. 

What constitutes something "indecent"? Nobody really knows with 100% certainty, but at some point people just started using mosaics and saying that isn't indicent, and it just became a cultural norm to use mosaics (or other forms of cover up) in pornographic works as a way to get around this indicency legislation.

Does it make sense? You can argue either way, the problem always stems from the vagueness of Japan's criminal code regarding the word "indicent". I believe it's possible for this to evolve in the future even (if there were no mosaics in the past, it's possible there might be no mosaics in the future too), but as of now most artists kind of reached a consesus in how things should be in Japan and many do not want to break out of that mold.

I even believe it would be possible to sue already existing works under this "indecency" law, even if they're censored, because it all comes down to how certain people interpret it. Some people believe depicting pubic hair is breaking this indecency law already, for example. So given how shakey these laws are, it's ultimately not surprising artists like Sayori would not want to mess with something they know have worked until now.

[OriginalRen]

7 hours ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

Not surprising, considering it's really hard to get reference material

That isn't true. One of my best friends is an artist who frequents a lot of the main sites (including the Japanese ones), and male reproductive tutorials are very common. Yes, furry fans may draw some weird stuff, but their 3 foot penis drawings are actually pretty spot on. The real problem is the lack of female reproductive tutorials; artists have a very hard time drawing a vagina, especially ones that need to be drawn during the act of sexual intercourse.

[Fiddle]

10 minutes ago, OriginalRen said:

but their 3 foot penis drawings are actually pretty spot on.

Run-sama's knowledge of 3-foot penises is as spot-on as expected.

[Soulless Watcher]

 I use to think that it was only the States that had a bizarre interpretation of what is too sexually vulgar for the public, but I guess I was wrong. I just jerked off this morning to a doujin that involved a abusive relationship between a mother and daughter being resolved by them taking turns to fuck their dog, spoilers it ends with them reconciling and entering a sm relationship with the daughter being the s and the mother being the m. I can not understand how that is less obscene than completely showing a part of human anatomy, that half of the population of Earth is already very familiar with. I guess I just fail to understand the culture in Japan.

[Narcosis]

Judging from this thread, It seems a lot of people don't really understand the actual reasons behind the japanese censorship. Everything goes back to the Meiji period; Meiji Restoration basically almost banned pornography due to heavy goverment pressure. After WWII, pornography was 'banned' through the Obscenity Law, but still allowed through freedom of expression, guaranteed by the law itself; what people got in the end was a weird kind of paradox, where dicks and vaginas can literally fly on the screen, as long as they stay censored and this censorship involved putting mosaics onto them.

What people seem to forget it's still a law. A lot of artists don't want to cross the line, not because they can't or aren't willing to, but because they are afraid of facing a charge for obscenity, which usually results in very high fines. It's not surprising, many artists like Sayori simply don't want to risk getting into legal actions and would rather self-censorship their works... which is what plenty of studios do. With time, it simply became a habit to censor your own work; those who don't, ask themselves for trouble.

That said, this only affects the japanese market. We don't have any sort of such censorship here. I'm assuming it's highly possible a lot of artists would rather keep their works in their original state, than censor them, but aren't really knowledgeable about western laws involving pornographic content. It's still possible to release a game in two versions - 'censored' game for the japanese market and an original for the western market, it's just... kind of complicated. Japanese are the type of people, who are very reluctant to changes, out of many various factors, including convenience.

[Formlose Gestalt]

I am somewhat surprised that there is this wish for the mosaics to be removed, they never bothered me. Usually I don't even notice them. That JAST broke off negotiations about this is pretty weird for me, but I guess if their customer base demands it. It would be interesting to know how many percent of the user base are actually bothered by mosaics.

For me personally that is a mold, that the VN developer/artists don't need to break, but that is just my personal opinion.

[Narcosis]

2 minutes ago, Formlose Gestalt said:

I am somewhat surprised that there is this wish for the mosaics to be removed, they never bothered me. Usually I don't even notice them. That JAST broke off negotiations about this is pretty weird for me, but I guess if their customer base demands it. It would be interesting to know how many percent of the user base are actually bothered by mosaics.

For me personally that is a mold, that the VN developer/artists don't need to break, but that is just my personal opinion.

It's true. I don't mind them, either. It's something I grew accustomed to, in the same kind of way japanese did.

Besides, it's more fun to use your imagination instead Pictures and text should only work as a crutch.

[Soulless Watcher]

15 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

Judging from this thread, It seems a lot of people don't really understand the actual reasons behind the japanese censorship. Everything goes back to the Meiji period; Meiji Restoration basically almost banned pornography due to heavy goverment pressure. After WWII, pornography was 'banned' through the Obscenity Law, but still allowed through freedom of expression, guaranteed by the law itself; what people got in the end was a weird kind of paradox, where dicks and vaginas can literally fly on the screen, as long as they stay censored and this censorship involved putting mosaics onto them.

Ok, I guess I can understand it being part of a bygone era and is only around today because no one wants to be "that guy" in Diet. 

15 minutes ago, Formlose Gestalt said:

I am somewhat surprised that there is this wish for the mosaics to be removed, they never bothered me. Usually I don't even notice them. That JAST broke off negotiations about this is pretty weird for me, but I guess if their customer base demands it. It would be interesting to know how many percent of the user base are actually bothered by mosaics.

I'm kinda of the same mind, I've just gotten use to them over time. What bothers me is the reason why they are there. Mosaics just seem like a pointless exercise especially when more often than not, they don't even cover the thing they are "censoring", but simply obscure a small section. 

[Narcosis]

1 hour ago, Soulless Watcher said:

Ok, I guess I can understand it being part of a bygone era and is only around today because no one wants to be "that guy" in Diet. 

I'm kinda of the same mind, I've just gotten use to them over time. What bothers me is the reason why they are there. Mosaics just seem like a pointless exercise especially when more often than not, they don't even cover the thing they are "censoring", but simply obscure a small section. 

In truth, majority of artists aren't actually that good with drawing our reproductive organs So more or less, it's a godsend to them. You think why a lot of localized vn's have such awful h-cg's, I'd actually wish them to be re-censored in the first place? So ironic.

[KuroganeHomura]

https://www.sankakucomplex.com/2013/04/25/cops-raid-comic-megastore-force-cancellation/ (Yes, I'm linking Sankaku)

Most likely explanation is that she's taking the same "better safe than sorry" approach a lot of doujin artists have been taking. You've probably seen a fair number that feature lightsaber censorship (whole genital area covered with white) - that's done to make sure they don't get fucked. Most of them started doing that after the above event and iirc some related stuff. Same reason a lot of magazines that used to employ a few black bars now use mosaics. On the other hand, you've also got magazines and doujins with little censorship. Since the police have a lot of leeway in this matter, it's a matter of "do I want to risk being that guy who actually does get fucked, or do I just hope to get ignored like pretty much everyone else?"

[Nosebleed]

2 minutes ago, KuroganeHomura said:

https://www.sankakucomplex.com/2013/04/25/cops-raid-comic-megastore-force-cancellation/ (Yes, I'm linking Sankaku)

Most likely explanation is that she's taking the same "better safe than sorry" approach a lot of doujin artists have been taking. You've probably seen a fair number that feature lightsaber censorship (whole genital area covered with white) - that's done to make sure they don't get fucked. Most of them started doing that after the above event and iirc some related stuff. Same reason a lot of magazines that used to employ a few black bars now use mosaics. On the other hand, you've also got magazines and doujins with little censorship. Since the police have a lot of leeway in this matter, it's a matter of "do I want to risk being that guy who actually does get fucked, or do I just hope to get ignored like pretty much everyone else?"

It's really a shame that this all stems from the fact nobody really knows what constitutes obscenity and everybody is literally left to their better judgment.

What I have noticed to some extent is artists releasing their work slightly less censored (with those half see through bars) as tankoubons, whereas magazine publications of that same manga typically get mosaic censorship or lightsaber dicks. Not really sure how tankoubons get away with it more easily but it happens.

[KuroganeHomura]

31 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

It's really a shame that this all stems from the fact nobody really knows what constitutes obscenity and everybody is literally left to their better judgment.

What I have noticed to some extent is artists releasing their work slightly less censored (with those half see through bars) as tankoubons, whereas magazine publications of that same manga typically get mosaic censorship or lightsaber dicks. Not really sure how tankoubons get away with it more easily but it happens.

At least some magazines are also sold in normal stores (e.g. next to magazines with scantily clad 3D girls). You can't get away with as much there as you can when you're selling in a store that focuses on this type of stuff only. Plus, if there's more censorship in the magazine version, that's additional incentive to buy the tankoubon.

[Jun Inoue]

It's sad when you consider that this comes from the insane cross of the old Japan, where censorship on sex wasn't that big of a thing, and when the US came big into Japan, telling them that they had an obscene and disgusting culture. Years of that crazy opposition has left us with a culture big on tentacle rape and lots of super crazy shit, mostly unthinkable in the West, but that can no longer even imagine uncensored porn without feeling that it is "wrong".

I generally consider that sort of censorship to be crap, simply because it does not work in favour of anything. It's part of the "what if people discovered what genitals look like before they are ready!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!? How obscene! This is what makes countries and societies collapse!!" that the West had decades ago, and Japan still has. I very much doubt that the more extreme side of porn is actually seeing the genitals, and find it hilarious that people have seriously accepted this sort of censorship as normal. A set of rules that makes the most extreme of vore porn perfectly acceptable (if extremely disturbing for most, though), but that has people being sued/in prison if they actually depict genitals, in a country that used to have no problems whatsoever with nudity and depictions of the body.

It's a sort of censorship that sets back the country and its people in regression, yet they are so deep in the hole that I doubt anything can be done but wait and give it time, hoping more and more porn will end up breaking the standard until it's simply impossible to keep demanding the mosaics.

 

On the other hand, maybe Trump wins the elections and the US also does smth similar!

[Eai]

Someone said it above, but i am surprised to see there are a lot of mis and overinterpretation about the censorship.

Basically, the artists are not censoring their artwork because they want to, but simply because of the obscenity laws in japan.

Censorship is only "part of the medium" by necessity. It should not be forgotten that there was a time when there was an hidden command used in old eroge to display the uncensored cg, but the trick was found and not used anymore after. Actually e.g. in eroge artbooks are a way for artists to  provide less censored versions of the artworks by changing the censorship standard or reducing the mosaics. It has become harder to do so, because the present situation in japan regarding censorship is not very good. And since there is no clear definition of what obscene material is, the artists are only left with unwritten faint guidance lines  which are constantly changing, in relation to the cops attitude. Arguing about artistic intend is not relevant there considering the censors are a legal obligation. Altering the art by censoring is not done for artistic reasons at all, and Sayori's decision might be influenced by the japanese law and context. Some of her artworks were already published in japan with quite light censorship and no mosaic contrary to her most recent works.

Some artists are very concerned about the law, and for various reasons feel that displaying the uncensored artwork can be a problem. It's the reason some are very reluctant to  release the uncensored artwork for a western release. They think they could get in trouble with people from japan reverse importing it or distributing it around the internet. The Sayori's stance is an individual stance of one artist regarding the censorship problem, possibly to protect her against a perceived risk regarding japanese law. It's a similar but more radical attitude than the minori's stance for releasing one of their games not uncensored but with reduced mosaics.

 

 

 

[Scorp]

I never understand that idiotic stance on mosaics. I suppose some of otaku would be brain-damaged when they first see a naked girl... Oh wait, they would not see her, what I was thinking...

Anyway, artists are part of same otaku culture and have same brain damages, that it is not right to do a mosaic-free drawings. This is crap society which have crap censoring laws, which damage the people living there. That's why we got so much perversion and tons of fetish material from Japan - as fetishes are not censored, so get your Armpit sniffing or Zettai Ryouiki every day.

That's really shame. I am against any censorship and I do not enjoy any VN with h-scenes if they have mosaic. These japanese paranoids should really do something with that, that's a shame whole world have to follow japanese laws, which damage japanese artists way of thinking.

[Nosebleed]

Perhaps this Japanese woman's vagina figurines being classified as art and not obscenity in court will start a revolution.

[Jun Inoue]

50 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

Perhaps this Japanese woman's vagina figurines being classified as art and not obscenity in court will start a revolution.

It would be nice... but I'm not counting on Japan evolving past last-century laws until we hit the next century.

[Eai]

2 hours ago, Scorp said:

Anyway, artists are part of same otaku culture and have same brain damages, that it is not right to do a mosaic-free drawings. This is crap society which have crap censoring laws, which damage the people living there. That's why we got so much perversion and tons of fetish material from Japan - as fetishes are not censored, so get your Armpit sniffing or Zettai Ryouiki every day.

That's really shame. I am against any censorship and I do not enjoy any VN with h-scenes if they have mosaic. These japanese paranoids should really do something with that, that's a shame whole world have to follow japanese laws, which damage japanese artists way of thinking.

To be fair, even if it's the law that does not meant the average japanese is in favor of censorship. One reason some eroge companies are reluctant to release their titles without mosaics is because reverse importation. That's the reason companies like mangagamer are blocking the access to their website to japanese ips.

Like i said it's not like the artists are self censoring their work for pleasure, they do it because they can face legal problems such as very big fines if they face obscenity charges. The increased censorship in some media like manga are the results of police raids on artists and editors. There  is a lot of hypocrisy around this: even a company like minori, despite their stance with mangagamer, had an artbook of one of their eroge which displayed the in-game artworks with minimal censorship (no mosaic, tiny black bars). It's rare to see it nowdays because the context has become stricter.

to come back to the op question, like others has said too, i don't think it's a simple matter of "views on censorship" concerning Sayori's case and others but rather personnal concerns about  potential problems. Some of her works published in the past had much lighter censorship than nowdays; she would have added a mosaic from the start if she didn't want people to see her original drawings. These kind of reactions really depend of the artist. Some even have contradictory views about censorship: i remember an  interview of la blue girl and urotsukidoji's creator Toshio maeda (for people who don't know him, he is the ''inventor" of tentacles in hentai), where he said "i think censorship is necessary". Still, it didn't prevent him to try to get around the censors by using tentacles and publishing some of his works uncensored through american publishers in the past. I even  remember there was an eroge sold on the internet which was a "false western release": they just made some parts of the site in english and processed the transactions in dollars. But most part of it was in japanese. They never had any  problems...

2 hours ago, Nosebleed said:

Perhaps this Japanese woman's vagina figurines being classified as art and not obscenity in court will start a revolution.

A japanese professor has predicted obscenity laws will disappear by 2050: http://kotaku.com/5955714/pundits-big-prediction-no-more-japanese-porn-censorship-by-2050http://kotaku.com/5955714/pundits-big-prediction-no-more-japanese-porn-censorship-by-2050

[ittaku]

6 hours ago, Eai said:

A japanese professor has predicted obscenity laws will disappear by 2050: http://kotaku.com/5955714/pundits-big-prediction-no-more-japanese-porn-censorship-by-2050http://kotaku.com/5955714/pundits-big-prediction-no-more-japanese-porn-censorship-by-2050

I'll be 80 in 2050 if I'm still around. I'm not going to start holding my breath waiting any time soon...

[LeonidasTan]

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-05/10/japanese-artist-3d-printed-vagina-obscenity

Strangely this article says differently

[Eai]

On 30/04/2016 at 10:34 AM, Rooke said:

Uncensoring a piece of work is creating a derivative work. A derivative work changes the work in question. This change can impact how an artist is perceived or viewed, and can impact their reputation. Sayori is quite famous and maybe worries how this might affect her (?), so has exercised her right to control derivative works. Nothing really groundbreaking here, or anything to get worked up over, TBH.

Anyway I'm a little shoddy on law, but I think what I said is accurate, and you can't fault the reasoning behind this also. The people publishing this modified stuff won't have to deal with any repercussions that modification may create, so they really have little moral standing here.

I didn't see this message before.

Providing the uncensored version by itself is not creating a derivative work, given that the uncensored version use the original drawings and not a third party edit. However, translations are derivative works, as they are made after the author's original material (the text) by a different "author". The reason is that to be derivative, a work should  involve the modification, alteration, or change of an existing original; but in this case the original concerning the visuals is the uncensored version acquired by Fakku through Wanimagazine itself. Thus, as far as "uncensoring" is specifically concerned, it's just the act of displaying the art before the magazine's staff applies the censorship. As the legal definition of derivative under U.S laws says:  "A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works ".

It's the same when uncensored versions of a movie/series are featured because it has been edited for tv broadcasting or distribution obligations; they are not considered  strictly speaking, derivative works as well unless the original have been modified by another "author" (translation subtitles created by other persons than the studio, are derivative works). The term is generally used when it involves modifications made by another person than the author of the work in question or an adaptation of the work to an other format. I don't know what the contract terms between the different parties involved are, but it could be possible that the current problem is related to the fact the copyrights are mutually shared by Wani and Sayori concerning her work published into the magazine. So Wani didn't consult her about it, being the ones giving the distribution and translation rights to Fakku concerning the issue of the magazine and it's content.

 

 

 

[OriginalRen]

15 hours ago, Nosebleed said:

Perhaps this Japanese woman's vagina figurines being classified as art and not obscenity in court will start a revolution.

Ah nice, vagina lady. Been awhile since I have seen this story pop up 2-3 years ago.

[Xcr0]

Hello,

Here, the true story:

>https://twitter.com/sayori_nw/status/724052293230813185

-tweet deleted-
Huh? I didn't hear anything about an uncensored English version being distributed... I drew this believing it would be censored, do all of Wanimagazine's authors know about this?

>https://twitter.com/sayori_nw/status/724053401244327937

-tweet deleted-
Am I wrong for thinking that I still have the rights to my manga because I was only paid for a magazine publication

>https://twitter.com/sayori_nw/status/724054742809206785
I didn't hear about it even once, and the only money I received was the magazine publication fee.

 

And then:

 

>消してもらったのは事実ですが、無修正は原因ではありません、FAKKU側の勘違いですね。
>It's true that I asked for it to be removed, but the uncensoring wasn't the cause/reason. FAKKU is misunderstanding it.

[john 'mr. customer' smith]

That's very interesting

So what exactly was the reason she asked it then?