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Root Double -Before Crime * After Days- Review Discussion


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Good review, and regarding of con I couldn't elaborate much other than GundamAce also agree with you in regard that the revelation was underwhelming, and he was praise Root Double was better than Ever17 or same (Then again you may disagree though).

Oh, for a confirmation, is Route D was jammed with character flashback or not? Because I'd read that many people complain about that (Although Tyrosyn was okay with that though).

I think I'll post my first impression later in my thread, because at this time I'm still waiting Root Double to be available on certain site.

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Well, about the moralism, you have two paths to take: a) to leave the interpretation of things to the reader, and b) to let the author deliver his message and view on things.

In this case, I think it's not bad to be subjective on the topics, as long as you do it in a mature manner.

Even in VLR...

there were obvious asshole evildoers (Dio), even if there were some grayish characters (Akane, but she's supposed to be on the goody team)

...and VLR is pretty much the crowning game of this genre.

In 999...

...the asshole was still a super asshole, even if we got to see some humane side to him (the prosopagnosia thing).

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16 hours ago, littleshogun said:

Good review, and regarding of con I couldn't elaborate much other than GundamAce also agree with you in regard that the revelation was underwhelming, and he waspraise Root Double was better than Ever17 or same (Then again you may disagree though).

Oh, for a confirmation, is Route D was jammed with character flashback or not? Because I'd read that many people complain about that (Although tyroisin was okay with that though).

I think I'll post my first impression later in my thread, because at this time I'm still waiting Root Double to be available on certain site.

Root D is packed with flashbacks. Extend edition has a bit less from what i heard.

A normal reader would have a fair idea as to what would happen in the final route after reading the first two routes, thus making the revelations quite "underwhelming", but people should appreciate the level of detail and hints were placed into the first two routes and how everything works within the boundary of the world's setting shown.

I sort of see the writer had a very different message in the final route between RD and Ever17 - RD is about (spoon) feeding the answers to all the mysteries presented to you (not much surprises as a normal reader would figure out some of them already) whereas ever17 has a very defined goal as to what needs to be done, with heaps of emotions attached to the reader to achieve the goal (without spoiling on actual content)

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I guess this is also the discussion thread now?! So I'll just post my first impressions since I've started with Root Double.

And so far I'm loving it. The title oozes atmosphere in a similar way like Ever17 or the IG titles did. It just feels authentic and emits the tension of a disaster film. The music has a slight scifi flair, the backgrounds look like what you'd expect from a secret research base and the characters are dressed and behave like what they are supposed to be. Although the girls might look a tad bit too moe for a serious story VN - but I can totally live with that issue. :mare:

Because of the many events going on at the start, the writing was more matter-of-fact so far and there wasn't really time for chit-chat yet. So I can't really judge character development and personalities yet.

The senses system is a bit weird though. I almost caused Yuuri an ongoing depression because I didn't notice the symphathy slider at first - she was so disappointed with me. :amane: The system seems to replace a traditional choices system, just that you've no real clue what will happen. But I have to read more first to be able to make a better judgement of it.

I think if Innocent Grey would also use this system for KnS3 and combine it with the branching jungle of KnS1 they would have created the VN equivalent of the cursed movie tape in 'The Ring'. :conspiracy:

Uh, I better shouldn't imagine such scary things... :unsure:

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Played more today and it was quite a ride so far. I was almost glued to the screen because there was so much tension with one event coming after another. Fortunately, the title switched a gear back now from its speed to give the characters some time to calm down and reflect on the events. Besides the radiation problem there were some

Spoiler

gruesome murders

that really made me curious about what's going on. I also think I started a love triangle between Kazami and Ena. At least I hope so. ^_^

I think I'm also slowly getting used to the Senses Symphathy System - which means I'm getting used to dying. It really does a fantastic job... in sending you straight to hell because of some simple 'misunderstanding'. I guess there must be some relationship to the AI of the first Resident Evil movie, because the system can be a real bitch. Usually it goes like this:

Scene 1:

SSS: "Do you want to do A which makes you look like a coward, or B which is courageous but more dangerous?"
Me: "Hmm, B of course!"
SSS: "Sorry, you die because you were too careless and foolish."
Me: "Shit!" :blink:

Scene 2:

SSS: "Do you want to do A which makes you look like a coward, or B which is courageous but more dangerous?"
Me: "Not again darling, this time I choose A!"
SSS: "Sorry, you die because you hesitated too much."
Me: "You're kidding!?" <_<

Scene 3:

SSS: "Do you want to do A which makes you look like a coward, or B which is courageous but more dangerous?"
Me: "It's clear that it's B this time, but I don't know how to trigger it because I can't figure out the right combination for the six sympathy sliders."
SSS: "Sorry, you die because you acted like a coward."
Me: "Hrrrnnnghhhh!!!" :wacko:

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I've finished the first route now. The problem is that it wasn't really a full route, it was more like a ridiculously oversized prologue giving just a rough introduction into the story. Overall story content in it was probably about 4 - 5 hours and it would have been pretty solid with that length. Unfortunately it was stretched over more than 20 hours which made the whole thing extremely tedious and boring after a fairly decent start.

Spoiler

Main problems were the endless repetition of certain events like the search for the next dose of AD and a severe lack of story progress and character development. There were also too much 'convenient circumstances' used to artificially confuse the story. For reasons that never get explained the captain has amnesia, and for reasons that never get explained he was apparently a bad guy before, and for reasons that never get explained he suddenly turned into a good guy. Naturally, that makes him the top target for distrust from all people around him, even more fueled by his frequent blackouts which are also left unexplained. While the latter could have been the effect of the pseudo radiation, the other members don't seem to suffer from those. Instead of that, they slowly turn into drooling idiots for unexplained reasons while the captain at least seems to able to keep his sanity for unexplained reasons.

And that's more or less the whole story so far: Search for AD x 10, captain converted to good by amnesia and people go nuts because of pseudo-radiation. Questions answered: Zero! Good stuff for a prologue, but pretty weak for a full route.

Now, how will this continue? The captain is top material for misunderstandings and the pseudo-radiation constantly turns people to idiots. So I fear that the rest of the story will consist of endless irrational infighting with the captain being the top punching ball for everyone and no intelligent conflict or antagonist in sight. And then probably in the last 30 minutes or so the title will then come up with some half-assed explanations why all the past events happened. Most likely a super cliched story about evil guys experimenting with telepaths including a relative of the captain as victim who then tries to destroy the secret laboratory in revenge.

Enjoyment so far was about 5/10. Really makes me wonder why this got a higher rating than the somehow similar Soul Link. That one had at least some half-decent antagonists, story progression and character development and not just random shit happening. If they just wouldn't have replaced the protagonist with a wimp in the middle of the story. :sleep: Though the same seems to happen in Root Double too with Watase - who was one of the rare good points so far - being replaced by Natsuhiko. And if Natsuhiko is just half as dumb as his completely useless telepathic messages made him appear, it'll be a real nightmare.

That turned into a bit of a rant I guess. Well not everything was bad: The protagonist was okay for the most part, and most of the other characters at least behaved authentic even if they were hardly more than mere plot devices devoid of much personality.

I'll dropping this at least for now and continue with Ozmafia. Not sure if I'll pick it up again anytime soon.

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3 hours ago, ChaosRaven said:

I've finished the first route now. The problem is that it wasn't really a full route, it was more like a ridiculously oversized prologue giving just a rough introduction into the story. Overall story content in it was probably about 4 - 5 hours and it would have been pretty solid with that length. Unfortunately it was stretched over more than 20 hours which made the whole thing extremely tedious and boring after a fairly decent start.

  Reveal hidden contents

Main problems were the endless repetition of certain events like the search for the next dose of AD and a severe lack of story progress and character development. There were also too much 'convenient circumstances' used to artificially confuse the story. For reasons that never get explained the captain has amnesia, and for reasons that never get explained he was apparently a bad guy before, and for reasons that never get explained he suddenly turned into a good guy. Naturally, that makes him the top target for distrust from all people around him, even more fueled by his frequent blackouts which are also left unexplained. While the latter could have been the effect of the pseudo radiation, the other members don't seem to suffer from those. Instead of that, they slowly turn into drooling idiots for unexplained reasons while the captain at least seems to able to keep his sanity for unexplained reasons.

And that's more or less the whole story so far: Search for AD x 10, captain converted to good by amnesia and people go nuts because of pseudo-radiation. Questions answered: Zero! Good stuff for a prologue, but pretty weak for a full route.

Now, how will this continue? The captain is top material for misunderstandings and the pseudo-radiation constantly turns people to idiots. So I fear that the rest of the story will consist of endless irrational infighting with the captain being the top punching ball for everyone and no intelligent conflict or antagonist in sight. And then probably in the last 30 minutes or so the title will then come up with some half-assed explanations why all the past events happened. Most likely a super cliched story about evil guys experimenting with telepaths including a relative of the captain as victim who then tries to destroy the secret laboratory in revenge.

Enjoyment so far was about 5/10. Really makes me wonder why this got a higher rating than the somehow similar Soul Link. That one had at least some half-decent antagonists, story progression and character development and not just random shit happening. If they just wouldn't have replaced the protagonist with a wimp in the middle of the story. :sleep: Though the same seems to happen in Root Double too with Watase - who was one of the rare good points so far - being replaced by Natsuhiko. And if Natsuhiko is just half as dumb as his completely useless telepathic messages made him appear, it'll be a real nightmare.

That turned into a bit of a rant I guess. Well not everything was bad: The protagonist was okay for the most part, and most of the other characters at least behaved authentic even if they were hardly more than mere plot devices devoid of much personality.

I'll dropping this at least for now and continue with Ozmafia. Not sure if I'll pick it up again anytime soon.

You are pretty severely mistaken about various plot points. There are very good reasons why they occurred. Unfortunately, I can't go into details without massive spoilers. Also, a lot of Root A's events are more important than they seem. There's a ton of subtle foreshadowing in particular.

Root A is fairly different from the rest of the VN, so how much you enjoyed it isn't terribly representative of how much you'll like the remaining parts of the story. They strongly prioritize characterization and world-building over suspense. That said, I would recommend getting all of Root A's heroine scenes before moving on. They have some valuable information and contribute a bit to characterization (though all three characters get much more development later on). The normal ending is also a must-read.

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3 hours ago, kilicool64 said:

You are pretty severely mistaken about various plot points. There are very good reasons why they occurred. Unfortunately, I can't go into details without massive spoilers. Also, a lot of Root A's events are more important than they seem. There's a ton of subtle foreshadowing in particular.

Root A is fairly different from the rest of the VN, so how much you enjoyed it isn't terribly representative of how much you'll like the remaining parts of the story. They strongly prioritize characterization and world-building over suspense. That said, I would recommend getting all of Root A's heroine scenes before moving on. They have some valuable information and contribute a bit to characterization (though all three characters get much more development later on). The normal ending is also a must-read.

Thanks, I'll consider your suggestions if I should happen to play the game again.

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15 hours ago, ChaosRaven said:

I've finished the first route now. The problem is that it wasn't really a full route, it was more like a ridiculously oversized prologue giving just a rough introduction into the story. Overall story content in it was probably about 4 - 5 hours and it would have been pretty solid with that length. Unfortunately it was stretched over more than 20 hours which made the whole thing extremely tedious and boring after a fairly decent start.

  Reveal hidden contents

Main problems were the endless repetition of certain events like the search for the next dose of AD and a severe lack of story progress and character development. There were also too much 'convenient circumstances' used to artificially confuse the story. For reasons that never get explained the captain has amnesia, and for reasons that never get explained he was apparently a bad guy before, and for reasons that never get explained he suddenly turned into a good guy. Naturally, that makes him the top target for distrust from all people around him, even more fueled by his frequent blackouts which are also left unexplained. While the latter could have been the effect of the pseudo radiation, the other members don't seem to suffer from those. Instead of that, they slowly turn into drooling idiots for unexplained reasons while the captain at least seems to able to keep his sanity for unexplained reasons.

And that's more or less the whole story so far: Search for AD x 10, captain converted to good by amnesia and people go nuts because of pseudo-radiation. Questions answered: Zero! Good stuff for a prologue, but pretty weak for a full route.

Now, how will this continue? The captain is top material for misunderstandings and the pseudo-radiation constantly turns people to idiots. So I fear that the rest of the story will consist of endless irrational infighting with the captain being the top punching ball for everyone and no intelligent conflict or antagonist in sight. And then probably in the last 30 minutes or so the title will then come up with some half-assed explanations why all the past events happened. Most likely a super cliched story about evil guys experimenting with telepaths including a relative of the captain as victim who then tries to destroy the secret laboratory in revenge.

Enjoyment so far was about 5/10. Really makes me wonder why this got a higher rating than the somehow similar Soul Link. That one had at least some half-decent antagonists, story progression and character development and not just random shit happening. If they just wouldn't have replaced the protagonist with a wimp in the middle of the story. :sleep: Though the same seems to happen in Root Double too with Watase - who was one of the rare good points so far - being replaced by Natsuhiko. And if Natsuhiko is just half as dumb as his completely useless telepathic messages made him appear, it'll be a real nightmare.

That turned into a bit of a rant I guess. Well not everything was bad: The protagonist was okay for the most part, and most of the other characters at least behaved authentic even if they were hardly more than mere plot devices devoid of much personality.

I'll dropping this at least for now and continue with Ozmafia. Not sure if I'll pick it up again anytime soon.

Things are gonna get explained, and then over-explained to ad nauseam later on, but you're not much mistaken about expecting things to be pretty cliche. Well, you've read Decay's review. :P

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10 hours ago, Conjueror said:

Things are gonna get explained, and then over-explained to ad nauseam later on, but you're not much mistaken about expecting things to be pretty cliche. Well, you've read Decay's review. :P

To each his own, I guess. While I can certainly see the appeal in letting the audience figure out some things themselves, after Remember11 and I/O, I thought it was a nice change of pace to have a Nakazawa VN that solves all of its mysteries. Though it's not like literally everything gets explained. A few events that happened in Root A still require your own interpretation to make sense of.

I don't see what's supposed to be cliché about the story though. Any examples?

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4 hours ago, kilicool64 said:

To each his own, I guess. While I can certainly see the appeal in letting the audience figure out some things themselves, after Remember11 and I/O, I thought it was a nice change of pace to have a Nakazawa VN that solves all of its mysteries. Though it's not like literally everything gets explained. A few events that happened in Root A still require your own interpretation to make sense of.

I don't see what's supposed to be cliché about the story though. Any examples?

The game is clichéd in quite a few spots. But really, it's not just that it's clichéd, I read and enjoy all manner of clichéd stories. The problem is that the game reaches those cliched moments and then fails to dig any deeper, and fails to deconstruct any of its key tropes. Nor does it cleverly utilize them with good writing. They just play it completely straight. It does present some novel ideas, particularly surrounding memories, but most of what surrounds those concepts is largely unremarkable.

WARNING: Spoilers for the entire game ahead!

Spoiler

So, to get into it a little bit more deeply, Root A is probably where it was most clichéd. From the survival story stuff to the distrust and insanity stuff, it all felt very standard and safe. What kept me going was the intrigue, I wanted to know more about what was happening and I think they string the reader along with that stuff very well. Who stole the AD? Who killed those people and why? Is someone toying with them behind the scenes? But beyond that, the moment-to-moment stuff was all pretty trite. This made the tension kind of fall flat for me. I was much more interested in the mystery than yet another boring traipse around the complex to find more AD. The actual story of what was happening was a little too standard for my tastes.

Route B was the most interesting part of the game for me because they were slowly peeling back the layers of the mystery, while adding additional layers at smart moments. Also as many users here know by now, I'm a sucker for slice of life. Not that RD's SoL was very good. It kind of wasn't. But still, I didn't hate it. What helped is how it intermingled the SoL with the world building. The world of Root Double is actually pretty interesting. It has a lot of history to it and they spent a lot of effort to establish and pseudo-scientifically explain the presence of psychic powers while also convincingly establishing how BC's discovery impacted the world. I like that. They start asking some pretty interesting questions about this world, such as how much security is too much security, how do you ethically research these telepathic abilities, and so on. 

The problem is how they take these concepts and the intricate world building, and just devolve it into another set of clichés in the end. Actually, LABO was the center of an evil corporation all along, look at how evil they are! You can tell everything they try to do is bad because they're so evil! And the city government, they're evil, too! They're in the pocket of Big Money! And the terrorist organization hell bent on taking them down? That could be an interesting gray area but NOPE! Turns out they're the puppet masters and this is all part of their master plan in their grand, evil crusade against communicators!  The evil corporation conducting unethical human research is a very common trope, unfortunately, and I feel like RD was starting to do something good with that trope and then completely torpedoed it by the end, giving us the standard answers we're always given. And don't get me started on Q. In the end, the only thing that's painted as righteous are the teenagers and their overzealous crusade of JUSTICE. Give me a break. How much more of a cliché can you become?

In retrospect, the warning bells started ringing in Root B when Mashiro and Natsuhiko had their fight. I had hopes that since the game has started to take an actually pretty mature and intelligent approach to many topics, that they'd handle this issue differently. But nope. In the end of the day, Root Double is yet another a story about bull-headed teenagers triumphing over the evil tyranny of adults and righting the wrongs of the world through sheer force of will and a childish sense of righteousness. AKA the biggest cliché in all of Japanese fiction.

 

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2 hours ago, WinterfuryZX said:

I'm reclutant to use my real name on the internet where it could be associated with my nickname, it's CENSORED JUST IN CASE YOU DECIDE TO DELETE THIS POST if you really wanna know. Since name is quite common, I suppose doing that once in a while doesn't hurt.

You just exposed your full name to everyone who has access to the credits with that post.

 

1 hour ago, Decay said:

The game is clichéd in quite a few spots. But really, it's not just that it's clichéd, I read and enjoy all manner of clichéd stories. The problem is that the game reaches those cliched moments and then fails to dig any deeper, and fails to deconstruct any of its key tropes. Nor does it cleverly utilize them with good writing. They just play it completely straight. It does present some novel ideas, particularly surrounding memories, but most of what surrounds those concepts is largely unremarkable.

WARNING: Spoilers for the entire game ahead!

  Hide contents

So, to get into it a little bit more deeply, Root A is probably where it was most clichéd. From the survival story stuff to the distrust and insanity stuff, it all felt very standard and safe. What kept me going was the intrigue, I wanted to know more about what was happening and I think they string the reader along with that stuff very well. Who stole the AD? Who killed those people and why? Is someone toying with them behind the scenes? But beyond that, the moment-to-moment stuff was all pretty trite. This made the tension kind of fall flat for me. I was much more interested in the mystery than yet another boring traipse around the complex to find more AD. The actual story of what was happening was a little too standard for my tastes.

Route B was the most interesting part of the game for me because they were slowly peeling back the layers of the mystery, while adding additional layers at smart moments. Also as many users here know by now, I'm a sucker for slice of life. Not that RD's SoL was very good. It kind of wasn't. But still, I didn't hate it. What helped is how it intermingled the SoL with the world building. The world of Root Double is actually pretty interesting. It has a lot of history to it and they spent a lot of effort to establish and pseudo-scientifically explain the presence of psychic powers while also convincingly establishing how BC's discovery impacted the world. I like that. They start asking some pretty interesting questions about this world, such as how much security is too much security, how do you ethically research these telepathic abilities, and so on. 

The problem is how they take these concepts and the intricate world building, and just devolve it into another set of clichés in the end. Actually, LABO was the center of an evil corporation all along, look at how evil they are! You can tell everything they try to do is bad because they're so evil! And the city government, they're evil, too! They're in the pocket of Big Money! And the terrorist organization hell bent on taking them down? That could be an interesting gray area but NOPE! Turns out they're the puppet masters and this is all part of their master plan in their grand, evil crusade against communicators!  The evil corporation conducting unethical human research is a very common trope, unfortunately, and I feel like RD was starting to do something good with that trope and then completely torpedoed it by the end, giving us the standard answers we're always given. And don't get me started on Q. In the end, the only thing that's painted as righteous are the teenagers and their overzealous crusade of JUSTICE. Give me a break. How much more of a cliché can you become?

In retrospect, the warning bells started ringing in Root B when Mashiro and Natsuhiko had their fight. I had hopes that since the game has started to take an actually pretty mature and intelligent approach to many topics, that they'd handle this issue differently. But nope. In the end of the day, Root Double is yet another a story about bull-headed teenagers triumphing over the evil tyranny of adults and righting the wrongs of the world through sheer force of will and a childish sense of righteousness. AKA the biggest cliché in all of Japanese fiction.

 

 

Spoiler

The stuff about teenagers triumphing over evil is quite an oversimplification. If anything, Natsuhiko's group failed completely at stopping the attack on LABO and wouldn't have even escaped from the place alive without help. Plus, even if they had succeeded at preventing the execution of Ukita, Watase, Dojima and Hiyama's plan, that could have actually benefited LABO's higher-ups and Rokumei City's government by preventing the truth from being exposed to the public.

Ena, Kuroda and Higa's own attempt at bringing the truth to light would've had a greater chance of succeeding, though who knows if three people with a single gun really would have stood a chance at forcefully gaining access to Area Zero. They sure as hell were a lot more prepared than Natsuhiko's group though.

Judging by your review, I get the impression you thought Watase's behavior at the end of Root B was genuine and were disappointed when it turned out Nagisa had manipulated his memories and emotions. While I can see why some people would react like that and I myself was a little disappointed that the two primary villainous factions of the VN didn't have any core representatives play a major role in the story, I certainly wouldn't say that the whole memory manipulation twist causes RD to suffer from binary morality. Watase's past self was still not exactly what I'd call perfectly sane. He felt such immense guilt over the fact that Wataru had sacrificed herself to save him that he felt obligated to avenge her, even if doing so required him to throw his current life away and stain his hands with sin. That's a pretty messed up mindset. His encounter with Nagisa and subsequent descent into complete insanity upon coming across Natsuhiko and Mashiro shows how that desire to avenge Wataru could've easily caused him to head down a much worse route had Ukita had no sympathy for LABO's test subjects and told him a different story about why Alice caused the Great Rokumei City Arson.

In general, RD spends a lot of time fleshing out the mentalities of a very diverse cast and showing how none of them are inherently better than others, but that all of them could have both positive and negative effects. Nagisa's memory manipulation shows the worst possible examples of what these mentalities could lead to, but there's more than that. Let's not forget that Salyu was so blindly determined to save Natsuhiko and Mashiro that she ended up repeatedly trying to kill people due to being too narrow-minded and distrustful of others. A few of Root A's bad endings even show that she would've been perfectly willing to go through with it.

Or how Ukita, despite his purely altruistic motivations, decided that working with terrorists whose ideology he completely disagrees with is a necessary evil. I remember him saying something to Watase along the lines of "Hey, I don't like these guys' methods either. But how else are we supposed to put an end to Rokumei City's wrongdoings?" I wouldn't be surprised if some actual terrorists had similar motives.

Finally, while it's true that the core members of the villainous factions don't get much development, even they aren't firmly on the black end of the moral spectrum. Q started off as a fairly harmless group of people who simply felt uncomfortable about the idea of people being able to read their minds. It wasn't until Rokumei City's government scapegoated them for the Arson and therefore exposed itself to them as an oppressive regime that regulated information and censored criticism that Q's members decided that they needed to resort to extreme methods to make their voice heard.

And even Rokumei City's government and LABO's higher-ups weren't purely evil. Their censorship of various research results related to BC, especially Senses Sympathy, was somewhat understandable. After all, a lot of people were already feeling uncomfortable about communicators being able to read their minds. The antagonism towards BC would have skyrocketed if they had learned that some communicators can do much worse things than that, to the point where a single Level 6 communicator could easily cause the death of hundreds of people either deliberately or simply by overusing their powers. And while there was nothing sympathetic about researching BC through unethical means in order to make money, it's definitely true that gaining a better understanding of how it works and how to counter it is of extreme importance. If Miyoko's theory about exposure to M particles causing the IGF2R gene of egg cells and fetuses to mutate is true, then the logical conclusion is that eventually, everyone will have Rank S aptitude. That would be an insanely dangerous scenario in which a single N-ified communicator could cause a chain reaction leading to the collapse of human society. So it's definitely true that researching BC is absolutely vital for humanity's future. It's just that some researchers thought accelerating their research through unethical means is a necessary evil in order to accomplish this. Like Eriguchi. As despicable as he may have been, the reason he resorted to human experimentation is because after Alice had used Senses Sympathy on him and discovered his darkest secrets, he had developed an intense fear of BC, having witnessed the danger it poses himself, and become determined to save humanity from it through excessive research.

 

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