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Want to remove the score system from FuwaReviews?


solidbatman

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10 minutes ago, starlessn1ght said:

People who think an ecchi imouto eroge cant be better than a nakige probably dislike ecchi and think pandering and ecchi and ero are cancer to the industry.

TopLel.jpg

Ooooor, they could just like serious stories better than nukige without agreeing with your Puritanical ideology?  I'm out, and this is why I hate talking with you, you're incapable of not bringing this up any time you post here.

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5 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

TopLel.jpg

Ooooor, they could just like serious stories better than nukige without agreeing with your Puritanical ideology?  I'm out, this is why I hate talking with you, you're incapable of not bringing this up any time you post here.

What? Dude, I'm not saying anything about my opinion, seriously. I'm not talking about my opinion on ero or ecchi, you've misunderstood me.

I'm just saying some people have the wrong notion a serious story is high art and ecchi/ero is low art.

EDIT: People who just prefer serious stories would not discredit the review score, because it's just a personal preference. People who think ecchi and ero are cancer, on the other hand, think a work of those is incapable of being better than a serious story, and anyone who rates like that is not reviewing things correctly or something.

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The benefit of removing scores is that the reader has to actually read the review and therefore comprehend by him or herself what is being said in the review.

Scores take away all of that context, in order to create a whimsical scaling and encourage readers to be lazy and skip ahead. That dismissive attitude leads to meaningless conflicts, controversies and comparisons to and about something that shouldn't matter in the first place - a number.

 

52 minutes ago, Ryechu said:

Everybody has certain likes and dislikes, and rates them differently. While obviously the goal is to try to remain neutral, if something prevents us from doing that, journalisticly speaking, we would be remiss to not mention why that specific thing made or broke the game for us.

This is the point where I would explain my disdain for Fuwa Reviews for being unable to be even a little objective, but that isn't the topic for here. This is about the scores and what I think about the matter is pretty much said.

 

29 minutes ago, starlessn1ght said:

You're trying to tell me an ecchi imouto work being superior to a tear-jerking coming of age story cannot be true, but I disagree. I love Little Busters!, but I don't believe there is such a distinction between high and low art, like many people do. Thus, an ecchi imouto story can be perfectly better than an emotional nakige, yes, if the first does what it's trying to do better than the latter.

You say the people who would fall for a total scale are dumb, but at the same time compare two VNs in entirely different genres to each other, proving Nosebleed's argument.

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Just now, TexasDice said:

You say the people who would fall for a total scale a dumb, but at the same time compare two VNs in entirely different genres to each other, proving Nosebleed's argument.

Nosebleed implies they cannot be compared. I'm not proving his argument, because I think they can be compared, yes. Just not 'objectively', because such thing does not exist in reviews.

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11 minutes ago, atorq said:

I may or may not be a complete fool and/or idiot, but in my world those two go hand in hand. 

Have you ever seen a cinema critic telling you a film is worth its movie ticket or buying the DVD? A book critic telling you that this book is kinda worth its price, but only if you get the pocket format?

Video games seem to be, as far as I can see, the only fictional media items that are mostly seen as objects of consumption where the price tag is inherently part of the evaluation rather than pieces of fiction judged in abstraction of the way they were distributed (unless there is a particularly peculiar distribution history that makes it interesting or something...).

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5 minutes ago, TexasDice said:

The benefit of removing scores is that the reader has to actually read the review and therefore comprehend by him or herself what is being said in the review.

Scores take away all of that context, in order to create a whimsical scaling and encourage readers to be lazy and skip ahead. That dismissive attitude leads to meaningless conflicts, controversies and comparisons to and about something that shouldn't matter in the first place - a number.

 

This is the point where I would explain my disdain for Fuwa Reviews for being unable to be even a little objective, but that isn't the topic for here. This is about the scores and what I think about the matter is pretty much said.

 

You say the people who would fall for a total scale are dumb, but at the same time compare two VNs in entirely different genres to each other, proving Nosebleed's argument.

Reviews are not objective. I do the best I can to make sure people who are interested in a particular genre are reviewing those type of games.

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Just now, starlessn1ght said:

Nosebleed implies they cannot be compared. I'm not proving his argument, because I think they can be compared, yes. Just not 'objectively', because such thing does not exist in reviews.

Because they can't. Visual Novels are not a genre, they're a medium. Comparing two things that have no similarities other than 2D-sprites and a bottom screen textbox without any regard for the intended audience is wrong and leads to an incorrect conclusion.

You can't compare a 30-minute long, narrated documentary about lions in Africa with something like Batman vs Superman.  

Just now, solidbatman said:

Reviews are not objective. 

They can be. And should.

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7 minutes ago, Down said:

Have you ever seen a cinema critic telling you a film is worth its movie ticket or buying the DVD? A book critic telling you that this book is kinda worth its price, but only if you get the pocket format?

Video games seem to be, as far as I can see, the only fictional media items that are mostly seen as objects of consumption where the price tag is inherently part of the evaluation rather than pieces of fiction judged in abstraction of the way they were distributed (unless there is a particularly peculiar distribution history that makes it interesting or something...).

 

Oh, it seems I misunderstood your point. But nevertheless video games are quite a bit more expensive than other forms of entertainment generally are and tend to draw in a (or at least used to) younger audience so it's quite understandable that people would want to see that brought up as a point. Even though it probably should not, as you say, be a part of it.

 

4 minutes ago, TexasDice said:

They can be. And should.

That sounds more like an analysis than a review to me.

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2 minutes ago, atorq said:

 

Oh, it seems I misunderstood your point. But nevertheless video games are also quite a bit more expensive than other forms of entertainment generally are and tend to draw in a (or at least used to) younger audience so it's quite understandable that people would want to see that brought up as a point. Even though it probably should not, as you say, be a part of it.

 

That sounds more like an analysis than a review to me.

Anal? Where? :pyaa:

 

while im in the boat of not using scores i can understand if the casual reader just wants to get some quick info on whether or not they should spend money/time on a vn. at least make it optional for the one reviewing the vn.

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4 minutes ago, TexasDice said:

Because they can't. Visual Novels are not a genre, they're a medium. Comparing two things that have no similarities other than 2D-sprites and a bottom screen textbox without any regard for the intended audience is wrong and leads to an incorrect conclusion.

Both are forms of art, whose main objective is to affect the readers emotions and intellect. The comparison is just how successful they are in doing what they're trying to do. You can compare a math teacher to a doctor, for example, in how good both of them are in their respective professions, even though their jobs are different. (Plz dont say Imouto Paradise isnt trying to do that. It is. Even nukiges are. They are trying to bring the sexual arousal, which is an emotion, and every work of art has the ideas of its authors input, thus there are always messages and themes, no matter if its a nukige or a nakige). 

 

9 minutes ago, TexasDice said:

You can't compare a 30-minute long, narrated documentary about lions in Africa with something like Batman vs Superman.  

That's only because documentaries aren't pieces of fiction or forms of art, a movie like BvS is.

9 minutes ago, TexasDice said:

They can be. And should.

No, they can't. And should not. People will always be biased for their life experience, tastes, etc. When you're playing a VN, you're interpreting things you're way and you're experiencing it through your personality, that is shaped from your life experience.

Nobody is going to see a VN objectively, thus there's no point in attempting that either. VNs are meant to affect you personally, not follow a bunch of rules that can not apply every time, as the medium is constantly progressing.

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Scores provide a method for sorting and filtering reviews and the games associated with them.  Perhaps I want to identify the games best-reviewed or recommended by Fuwanovel.  Perhaps I'm looking for negative reviews to see what elements of the game they praise (praise from negative reviews is the most sincere form of flattery).

Consistency of scoring among different reviewers (and even between reviews from the same reviewer) will always be a problem.  But for that matter, the subjective bias from which inconsistent scores stem is the more fundamental problem--scores simply bring it into focus.

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2 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Scores provide a method for sorting and filtering reviews and the games associated with them.  Perhaps I want to identify the games best-reviewed or recommended by Fuwanovel.  Perhaps I'm looking for negative reviews to see what elements of the game they praise (praise from negative reviews is the most sincere form of flattery).

Consistency of scoring among different reviewers (and even between reviews from the same reviewer) will always be a problem.  But for that matter, the subjective bias from which scores stem is the more fundamental problem--scores simply bring it into focus.

If I do away with numbered scores, there will still be a means for filtering them. The filtering, and sorting, is the main reason numbered reviews are still in place. 

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To be honest, if you look at the "top rated" sidebar the results are pretty silly. I'd recommend removing that one. That said, I do like the scores as I can then just scroll down and see whether the reviewer had shit taste (if I've read it) or if it might be unexpectedly interesting (if it's a random oelvn and not reviewed by Palas). I don't actually want to read reviews for near anything I might actually read in the future as they always spoil to a degree. I may not be your target audience :P

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1 minute ago, Zakamutt said:

To be honest, if you look at the "top rated" sidebar the results are pretty silly. I'd recommend removing that one. That said, I do like the scores as I can then just scroll down and see whether the reviewer had shit taste (if I've read it) or if it might be unexpectedly interesting (if it's a random oelvn and not reviewed by Palas). I don't actually want to read reviews for near anything I might actually read in the future as they always spoil to a degree. I may not be your target audience :P

Nah, dude. The Reject Demon Toko and Go! Go! Nippon! are the cream of the crop, universally acclaimed, vastly superior to Ever17, Little Busters!, Hoshimemo, Gahkthun, ... can I keep going? Because next is eden*, Yume Miru Kusuri, Clannad, ...

Really, we could be here all day listing the games that Fuwareviews thinks are vastly inferior to Go! Go! Nippon!

The people who are arguing for numerical scores on the basis of the sorting have clearly never actually used the sorting.

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Just now, Fred the Barber said:

Nah, dude. The Reject Demon Toko and Go! Go! Nippon! are the cream of the crop, universally acclaimed, vastly superior to Ever17, Little Busters!, Hoshimemo, Gahkthun, ... can I keep going? Because next is eden*, Yume Miru Kusuri, Clannad, ...

Really, we could be here all day listing the games that Fuwareviews thinks are vastly inferior to Go! Go! Nippon!

The people who are arguing for numerical scores on the basis of the sorting have clearly never actually used the sorting.

Which you totally can. Just not in this thread.

Any more critiques, sarcastic remarks, or posts comparing, analyzing, or otherwise discussing the content of FuwaReviews will be marked for removal. This thread is strictly to discuss the removal of numbered scores, and the pros and cons resulting of. If you have nothing to say in regards to that, do not post in this thread. Feel free to create your own criticism thread, or discuss reviews in their respective threads. Thank you. 

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1 hour ago, Nosebleed said:

I might think Imouto Paradise is an 8/10 and Little Busters is a 4/10 in their own respective fields, but just looking at the scores makes it sound like I think there's one sole objective scale and Imouto Paradise is clearly superior to Little Busters when most people will think that's a dumb statement to make.

This topic came up when I was discussing LewdGamer's scoring system with them.  I think the best way to handle this is to score reviews by category, either explicitly or implicitly.  One could literally have a different scoring system for nukige vs. story-centric games, and these reviews would be cordoned off in different sections.  Alternatively, reviewers would simply be asked to score games based on their ranking among similar games (and that would be spelled out in the scoring guide).  For example, Yumina the Ethereal would be compared against other gameplay hybrids.  Imouto Paradise would be compared against other nukige.  For each game, the reviewer could identify the category of games the score is supposed to represent.

It's important to clearly identify games that are best-in-class, and I think the scoring system I propose achieves that goal.

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4 minutes ago, Fiddle said:

guys

how about instead using numbers to score games

we use stars

How about we use an empty salt container that fills up the worse the game is. 

9 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

This topic came up when I was discussing LewdGamer's scoring system with them.  I think the best way to handle this is to score reviews by category, either explicitly or implicitly.  One could literally have a different scoring system for nukige vs. story-centric games, and these reviews would be cordoned off in different sections.  Alternatively, reviewers would simply be asked to score games based on their ranking among similar games (and that would be spelled out in the scoring guide).  For example, Yumina the Ethereal would be compared against other gameplay hybrids.  Imouto Paradise would be compared against other nukige.  For each game, the reviewer could identify the category of games the score is supposed to represent.

It's important to clearly identify games that are best-in-class, and I think the scoring system I propose achieves that goal.

That's possibly a better way to make the numeric system more accurate, but I think that might be a little too convoluted for fuwareviews.

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2 minutes ago, solidbatman said:

Which you totally can. Just not in this thread.

Any more critiques, sarcastic remarks, or posts comparing, analyzing, or otherwise discussing the content of FuwaReviews will be marked for removal. This thread is strictly to discuss the removal of numbered scores, and the pros and cons resulting of. If you have nothing to say in regards to that, do not post in this thread. Feel free to create your own criticism thread, or discuss reviews in their respective threads. Thank you. 

This thread has been summoning me for a while, and although I wanted to remain silent, I really need to comment on this.

What Fred is providing here are concrete examples of the current scoring system's cons, precisely what you want. More specifically, how it does not work as an accurate sorting system for some people. Ergo, arguing for the removal or alteration of the current scoring system.

Why would you want to remove this sort of post? I thought you were looking for feedback on the topic.

 

Since I'm fairly sure you'll call my post off topic, let me share my opinion. The scoring system is inconsistent between reviewers and genres, and can lead to some people focusing on the score more than they should, like me and Little Busters. I'd suggest leaving the pro's and con's section and either removing or replacing the score with something else.

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4 minutes ago, Tiagofvarela said:

Since I'm fairly sure you'll call my post off topic, let me share my opinion. The scoring system is inconsistent between reviewers and genres, and can lead to some people focusing on the score more than they should, like me and Little Busters. I'd suggest leaving the pro's and con's section and either removing or replacing the score with something else.

Pros and cons section will absolutely stay. If score gets removed, it will be replaced by something else. 

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1 hour ago, Fred the Barber said:

On the topic of Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic, and I'll add VNDB: these services are completely different from a single reviewer's score precisely because they are populist. Everybody gets a vote, and so you the thing I usually find useful to examine is the weighted average that these services put front-and-center. Granted, many people like to argue that masses of people are dumb, but in practice that argument doesn't usually hold water, and I'll point to the relatively rational average VN ratings on VNDB and relatively rational average movie rankings on Rotten Tomatoes as a good example of that.

Except you're not taking into consideration that many scores from Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes come from news sites and newspapers, and a lot of them only have a single reviewer's score.

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When we originally created the scoring system, we assumed two things:

1) That readers would understand that a nukige, an OELVN, a fan-translation (especially when they tread into the "mediocre" territory in terms of translation quality), and an official release are vastly different things that should be reviewed differently and against titles in that same vein.

Who in their right goddamn mind is going to compare (for example) Muv-Luv Alternative and Panzermadels?  They are both solid games in their fields, but their target audiences are completely different.

2) That people would want some sort of "TL;DR", which we formatted as a pros/cons section.  A score, a "recommend/don't recommend", SOMETHING, to provide those readers with a quick answer.

This is what we are talking about. Don't change the subject.

 

Do you want A SCORE OUT OF 10, or do you want something that would be the exact same thing as numbers in the form of "Recommend, Maybe, Do Not Recommend"?

To elaborate, that is the intention of this conversation.  We can remove some arbitrary numbers by simply saying "Yeah I'd give this game above a x/10, so I'd recommend it.  Hmm... this game is like a z/10 to y/10 game, some people might like it, while others won't. Nah... this game is garbage, definitely less than z/10, Do not recommend."

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