Want to remove the score system from FuwaReviews?

[solidbatman]

As promised, here is a thread for everyone to bitch at me about our review scores, and why you'd like to see them done away with. If you like the current score system, speak up. If you hate it, also speak up. If you have suggestions to make it better, or have an idea on something to replace it with, speak up. 

[Flutterz]

I don't really care but scores kinda suck, it's hard to compress all the aspects of a work and its strengths and weaknesses into 5 bits, not to mention different people score things differently, so more often than not they're pretty useless. Just look at my VNDB, not a score below 7 in sight, so it's really only useful for me.

[Gaijin]

I personally like it, it's simple, clean, concise and looks good.

 

My review score of the review score is 9/11 ;^)

[Down]

In my opinion, the numerical score only serves as an addition to the review. Sometimes you want to express the "raw" enjoyment you had with a title, for example, and place it on a scale of comparison with other experiences you had, and a numerical score is pretty convenient for that.

It's absolutely obvious that a numerical score can't sum up a whole game in all its dimensions, that it doesn't make sense to give a "grade" to a piece of fiction, etc... but it can express something in a different way than words.

I doubt getting rid of numerical scores would make people more attentive to the reviews and I think it's just a supplementary tool that we have no reason to suppress.

[Zenophilious]

Make them less clickbait-y and I won't care.

*cough cough* Little Busters, HoshiMemo, School Days  *cough cough*

[Nosebleed]

I think you should get rid of the numerical score but keep the summary of the pros/cons.

That's probably the best way to sum up stuff without attempting to use an "objective" scale that's always up for interpretation.

Then again, I don't think keeping it actually hurts FuwaReviews, so really it's just personal preference.

[TexasDice]

I've spoken a lot about that topic and the short of all my ramblings came down to: Yes, throw them out. Forever.

Especially since you guys are made out of multiple different "reviewers" writing those "reviews", so the scores don't even match up when compared to others, which causes trashtalk on it's own.

2 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

I think you should get rid of the numerical score but keep the summary of the pros/cons.

^

[littleshogun]

My comment ? Personally I didn't had any problem with this, but I think you better asking the question to your eternal lover and very big fan of Hoshimemo and Little Busters (I mean tiagovalera of course, since both of you flirt each other at Little Busters Review thread as far as I remember, so much I sick of it and post something inappropriate there (Sorry, just a little caught up there)). Also, since I just knew there is anti-salt product in America, better prepare it in case something will thrown here by your lover.

Anyway, I think score was quite divisive to be honest, while in fact even if you type your thought objectively and obviously you want as many people as possible to read that, in the end the first thing people want to see first in regard of their favorite work was, well score of course (To be honest, I was one of those people). If you want to throw it away, I think the problem for the reviewer would be he'll didn't know where he need to express his dislike while he definitely frustrated by the work that he review and also he need to review it objectively. While if you keep it, well the problem is so obvious to several member here. So my suggestion is that you should try 2-3 months to remove the score from the review as the trial, and if the trial was unsuccessful you may keep the scoring back. I think that's the only advice I could tell. Sorry couldn't help you much more.

PS - In regard of your Little Busters review, I'd found some suitable trope for you called 8.8. Read it if you want to know what is it.

[Ryechu]

17 minutes ago, TexasDice said:

Especially since you guys are made out of multiple different "reviewers" writing those "reviews", so the scores don't even match up when compared to others, which causes trashtalk on it's own.

I don't intend to start a war with this, but our system is no different than, let's say, a video game review magazine. Everybody has certain likes and dislikes, and rates them differently. While obviously the goal is to try to remain neutral, if something prevents us from doing that, journalisticly speaking, we would be remiss to not mention why that specific thing made or broke the game for us.

 

As a reader, one should always take each review with a grain of salt.  Not the entire damn bottle.

 

Prior to stepping down, I was toying with the option of converting our scoring system from a "point" system to a "Recommend, Maybe, Don't Recommend" scoring system, but that could very well still create the same amount of salt.  Somebody who isn't into a shota nukige is going to be incredibly far up my backend when I recommend a shota nukige, especially if they feel a moral obligation to do so.

[babiker]

I'll just qoute what I said in youre last thread about Fuwareviews:

Quote

 I personally heavily dislike those, as they're often inaccurate and misleading, and imo take away the value of the review itself. A number simply can not summarize an experience. People who actually read the review don't need a number to increase their understanding of the reviewer's opinion, so all it does is give the lazy a usually inaccurate image of the reviewer's opinion. Your own Little Buster's review is probably the best example, the people who were angry at it were only angry at the numerical score and not what you actually wrote, which was p fine. If I were to write a review, I'd like to have the option to not mislead the reader and oversimplify my experience.

And at the end of my Monster Girl Quest review:

Quote

This is where a reviewer usually either puts a misleading number that's supposed to show how he or she evaluates the game, or decides for you if the VN in question is worth your time or not. However, in my honest opinion that kind of takes away the value of the review itself: I've given you what I think are this VN's main strengths and weaknesses, it's for you to decide whether the pros outweigh the cons.

In all honesty it should either be removed, which admittedly is a bit extreme but better than having them be mandatory, or at least make it be the reviewer's choice.

[starlessn1ght]

Speaking here because I felt it was necessary.

 

I am strongly against the removal of the scores, and yes, I think they are necessary. I mean, even professional critics use scores (just look at Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes).  Without scores, you have no comparison, no scale, and the review will feel much more difficult to understand and comprehend what the reviewer really thought about the work. The review contains both positive and negative aspects of the work, but it's difficult for the readers to know how much those points actually affected the VNs. 

Scores are a pattern that helps readers situate the work in a common scale, when comparing to other works. When I see a 9 I remember the best pieces of fiction I've read for example, and that would make me see how much the reviewer liked the game to give it such a big score. Scores help users understand how the reviewer really feels about the work in a scale that everyone can understand.

4 minutes ago, babiker said:

 but better than having them be mandatory, or at least make it be the reviewer's choice.

I think this is a good choice. Give reviewers the choice to do what they're most comfortable with. I was planning to submit a review soon, but with no scores, I would have no choice but to change my decision.

[Nosebleed]

2 minutes ago, starlessn1ght said:

professional critics use scores (just look at Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes).

lol

[solidbatman]

Keep it civil. This is not an evaluation of our reviews. Got a problem with a review, mention it in the review thread, or go make a "I want to complain about why x game didnt get y score" thread. This is strictly for the number system @Zenophilious

[Nosebleed]

9 minutes ago, starlessn1ght said:

Scores are a pattern that helps readers situate the work in a common scale, when comparing to other works. When I see a 9 I remember the best pieces of fiction I've read for example, and that would make me see how much the reviewer liked the game to give it such a big score. Scores help users understand how the reviewer really feels about the work in a scale that everyone can understand.

I might think Imouto Paradise is an 8/10 and Little Busters is a 4/10 in their own respective fields, but just looking at the scores makes it sound like I think there's one sole objective scale and Imouto Paradise is clearly superior to Little Busters when most people will think that's a dumb statement to make. If there were no scores however I could explain why I think Imouto Paradise is amazing in its genre and Little Busters fails in its genre, listing pros and cons and not giving a numerical value to it, thus letting the reader evaluate it. That's the main problem with numeric scales, they're not all encompassing and are too subjective to give any real help as far as judging a game goes, it just says this person thinks a game is a 9/10 but I have no idea what a 9/10 means to them and more to the point a 9/10 to me probably means something else entirely.

[Zenophilious]

4 minutes ago, starlessn1ght said:

Without scores, you have no comparison, no scale, and the review will feel much more difficult to understand and comprehend what the reviewer really thought about the work.

Yeah, maybe, if you don't read the entire review and try to think as little as possible.  You're also not mentioning situations where the score clashes heavily with the rest of the review, and it really makes little to no sense other than trying to generate interest and page hits with scores that will piss people off and make sure they comment.

1 minute ago, solidbatman said:

Keep it civil. This is not an evaluation of our reviews. Got a problem with a review, mention it in the review thread, or go make a "I want to complain about why x game didnt get y score" thread. This is strictly for the number system @Zenophilious

I was just mentioning them because their scores stick out compared to games with similar scores (mostly shitty nukige and Sakura Shovelware stuff), but whatever.  I didn't intend that as some sort of call-out or anything.  I really think you misinterpreted what I meant by that.

[solidbatman]

1 minute ago, Nosebleed said:

I might think Imouto Paradise is an 8/10 and Little Busters is a 4/10 in their own respective fields, but just looking at the scores makes it sound like I think there's one sole objective scale and Imouto Paradise is clearly superior to Little Busters when most people will think that's a dumb statement to make. If there were no scores however I could explain why I thik Imouto Paradise is amazing in its genre and Little Busters fails in its genre, listing pros and cons and not giving a numerical value to it, thus letting the reader evaluate it. That's the main problem with numeric scales, they're not all encompassing and are too subjective to give any real help as far as judging a game goes, it just says this person thinks a game is a 9/10 but I have no idea what a 9/10 means to them and more to the point a 9/10 to me probably means something else entirely.

This right here is the main reason I'm planning to do away with review scores and switch to a new system. 

[starlessn1ght]

1 minute ago, Nosebleed said:

I might think Imouto Paradise is an 8/10 and Little Busters is a 4/10 in their own respective fields, but just looking at the scores makes it sound like I think there's one sole objective scale and Imouto Paradise is clearly superior to Little Busters when most people will think that's a dumb statement to make. If there were no scores however I could explain why I thik Imouto Paradise is amazing in its genre and Little Busters fails in its genre, listing pros and cons and not giving a numerical value to it, thus letting the reader evaluate it. That's the main problem with numeric scales, they're not all encompassing and are too subjective to give any real help as far as judging a game goes, it just says this person thinks a game is a 9/10 but I have no idea what a 9/10 means to them and more to the point a 9/10 to me probably means something else entirely.

Only if the person is dumb, he'll think this so-called objective scale exists. If Imouto Paradise is amazing in its genre and LB! is not, you're saying it is superior, obviously. There's no difference. 

If you want to explain stuff, then do it. It is not necessary to remove the rating. You're trying to tell me an ecchi imouto work being superior to a tear-jerking coming of age story cannot be true, but I disagree. I love Little Busters!, but I don't believe there is such a distinction between high and low art, like many people do. Thus, an ecchi imouto story can be perfectly better than an emotional nakige, yes, if the first does what it's trying to do better than the latter.

But, as you said, many people would not believe in that. Taking out the score would make no difference. A score will not force people to believe your review, people who do that and think reviews are 100% objective are dumb.

[Nayleen]

How about adapting something akin to "Buy, wait for sale, rent (obviously not applicable), don't touch"? I really like the scale applied by ACG, who does exactly that:

 

[starlessn1ght]

8 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

Yeah, maybe, if you don't read the entire review and try to think as little as possible.  You're also not mentioning situations where the score clashes heavily with the rest of the review, and it really makes little to no sense other than trying to generate interest and page hits with scores that will piss people off and make sure they comment.

I've never seen something like that, but to solve such a situation, it's simple: ask the reviewer to change his score or the review, and if he doesn't, remove the review.

[Nosebleed]

4 minutes ago, starlessn1ght said:

But, as you said, many people would not believe in that. Taking out the score would make no difference. A score will not force people to believe your review, people who do that and think reviews are 100% objective are dumb.

But that's the thing, a lot of people don't really give a shit and just look at the scores and end up placing the numerical value above all else because that's the easiest thing to do, it happens and it's something you have to factor in whether you like it or not.

What I'm arguing for though is the helpfuless of a numerical system as a whole, and to me it's not really very helpful in the grand scheme of things. It's much more helpful to have a final comment saying "I enjoyed this and you should buy it for these reasons" than to have a comment saying "I rate this game 7/10".

[starlessn1ght]

5 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

But that's the thing, a lot of people don't really give a shit and just look at the scores and end up placing the numerical value above all else because that's the easiest thing to do, it happens and it's something you have to factor in whether you like it or not.

Okay, let's follow your first example. People who think an ecchi imouto eroge cant be better than a nakige probably dislike ecchi and think pandering and ecchi and ero are cancer to the industry. Now you rate Imouto Paradise an 8/10. The person just looks at the number and... Goes on? This person will not be interested in the game despite your rating because it's a genre he or she dislikes. They won't believe the rating in fact, for rating a work focused on imoutos so high. So taking off the rating will make no difference here.

5 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

What I'm arguing for though is the helpfuless of a numerical system as a whole, and to me it's not really very helpful in the grand scheme of things. It's much more helpful to have a final comment saying "I enjoyed this and you should buy it for these reasons" than to have a comment saying "I rate this game 7/10"

Why not both? Also, the pros and cons are pretty summed up and they already do exactly what you're saying.

[littleshogun]

Oh, I see.

It maybe difficult here, but I think if the reason was people misunderstanding the scoring, maybe the reviewer should add some little explanation behind the score like just mod Nosebleed said. The explanation should be why I like this or why I didn't like this. Although of course we couldn't force the reviewer to do that though, since scoring or not is depending of them I supposed.

PS - Okay, I think since I suggested trial period about removal scoring system earlier, maybe it should be done and in trial period hopefully you could see of how much people will be more honest to telling his feeling about the VN that he review there.

[Down]

4 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

What I'm arguing for though is the helpfuless of a numerical system as a whole, and to me it's not really very helpful in the grand scheme of things. It's much more helpful to have a final comment saying "I enjoyed this and you should buy it for these reasons" than to have a comment saying "I rate this game 7/10"

The thing is, no it's not every useful, but it's not much more useless than "I enjoyed this a bit/a lot/it was a nice experience overall/I really hated it/etc etc" which are, in the end, all as empty and arbitrary as a numerical quantification. The justifications for those arbitrary statements, just like the justifications of the score, would be found inside the review anyway.

If people want to go bonkers about why I put score y on a game without reading it, cool for them, they probably wouldn't have read the review anyway and I don't see any worth in discussing with them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

12 minutes ago, Nayleen said:

How about adapting something akin to "Buy, wait for sale, rent (obviously not applicable), don't touch"? I really like the scale applied by ACG, who does exactly that:

I really have an issue with the weird way in which video games reviews are taken to be consumer's guides rather than actual critics/reviews. I think a reviewer's role is to tell me something interesting about a piece of fiction, not evaluate the worth of a consumption product. I'm not really for a scale like that.

[atorq]

I like numbers. Sometimes I don't feel like reading an entire review, then i will look at the number, if the number is of the intriguing sort I sometimes reconsider and read the damn thing.

 

3 minutes ago, Down said:

I really have an issue with the weird way in which video games reviews are taken to be consumer's guides rather than actual critics/reviews. I think a reviewer's role is to tell me something interesting about a piece of fiction, not evaluate the worth of a consumption product. I'm not really for a scale like that.

I may or may not be a complete fool and/or idiot, but in my world those two go hand in hand. 

[Fred the Barber]

I don't object to the attempt to relatively comparing games to each other, even using a numerical score. I do object to the fact that different reviewers are using radically different scales.

On the topic of Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic, and I'll add VNDB: these services are completely different from a single reviewer's score precisely because they are populist. Everybody gets a vote, and so you the thing I usually find useful to examine is the weighted average that these services put front-and-center. Granted, many people like to argue that masses of people are dumb, but in practice that argument doesn't usually hold water, and I'll point to the relatively rational average VN ratings on VNDB and relatively rational average movie rankings on Rotten Tomatoes as a good example of that.

I went down that tangent mostly to illustrate the contrast: because FuwaReviews isn't going to have many duplicate reviews (or at least, I really wouldn't want us to have them, because it seems like a waste of the reviewers' time), you're going to be presenting just one person's view on a game.

So, fine, the numbers don't really provide any useful information, aside from a general idea of whether a single person liked a game or not. That certainly doesn't make them a detriment to the review itself, necessarily, especially if people think they're drawing traffic.

But do me a favor. Go to the Reviews hub and take a good long look at that "Top Rated" menu. Click through a few pages of it and tell me it doesn't make you roll your eyes. Frankly I don't even have to get as low as 8 before I want to put my fist through the screen. I don't care if numbers are driving traffic; that overall ranking makes FuwaReviews look like a joke. And it's actually not a joke - I don't believe that to be the case. The few reviews I've read are well-written and informative, even when the reviewer and I clearly don't share the same taste. But the numbers result in a relative ranking that I think no sane person would agree with, and which the site itself is pushing.