Do you believe in VNs?

[Funnerific]

6 minutes ago, Nerathim said:

Sexual content is more than often totally irrelevant to the story and only present so the VN won't tank. (I think of Eden*)

It doesn't mean there can't be any deeper signification in the story because of this.

 

Even when it comes to professional matter you don't see proper english from japanese speaking people. They most likely have a big problem with the language instead of just not caring about their work.

While the sexual content in itself is usually irrelevant, it somewhat sets the target audience - and the developers may have to adjust the plot accordingly.

As for the language, all it takes is asking a native English speaker with knowledge of Japanese (perhaps a professional translator even). Surely it can't be that hard. But they never do it.

[sanahtlig]

18 minutes ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

Really? You've never been reminded of your own moral standpoints or preconceptions at any point while reading VNs? An event, discussion, or concept within never made you "think" beyond the scope of the VN itself?

If I want my preconceptions challenged or to see other perspectives, I'll go argue with actual people on Internet forums.  Like so.

Fiction might give me ideas, and indeed I prefer works that have a self-consistent setting because I find that interesting.  But does that translate into knowledge?  Probably not.

[Suzu Fanatic]

50 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

Oh, I did understand. It was logicall, it make sense, it was well written, it was impactfull, it was good. But still - I just can't imagine real life person with PTSD to act like that heroine. And if I really be standing across somebody with that syndrome I would really put a thought in that 'were actions they made towards PTSD person in VN really appropriate?', instead of just acting basing on experience/knowledge I took from movies or books.

Of course - VNs at their core are unrealistic. But that brings me back to my earlier comments - it's the underlaying message that a person can learn from - not the literal events/words/actions. I mean, if someone tries to take it at face value and needs a step-by-step checklist on how to interact with others, there's a much bigger issue they need to deal with, beyond what "any" medium can shed light on - as they inherently fail to see or understand even the basics.

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I just can't imagine real life person with PTSD to act like that heroine.

Then you still have a lot to learn in life - there are many people in this world, and many behave in ways beyond the understanding of most.

EDIT: @sanahtlig Touché, though there has to have at least been a handful of times, regardless. VNs, despite everything, are still the written words of another - and can thus produce the same effects as reading a book, or interacting with any other sensory medium.

[sanahtlig]

25 minutes ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

EDIT: @sanahtlig Touché, though there has to have at least been a handful of times, regardless. VNs, despite everything, are still the written words of another - and can thus produce the same effects as reading a book, or interacting with any other sensory medium.

My argument is ideologically motivated (at least in part).  If I admit that we learn from fiction, then I have to admit that fiction can and should influence us.  That means I have to admit that people are right to try and snuff out ideas in fiction that would be illegal or unethical in real life (because they could influence us to do harm).  I would surrender the most effective counter to the argument that lolicon is wrong.

I prefer to say: Fiction is fiction.  Reality is reality.  Those who try to link them together are the ones who can't tell the difference.

[Suzu Fanatic]

@sanahtlig

Nontheless, fiction does influence us - and sadly, many unstable minds go the wrong direction with it. But blame doesn't lay with the fiction, but with the person foolish enough to not reflect on their own behavior. Just as fiction creates murderers - and far worse - it can also inspire people to perform acts of charity and goodwill.

As for learning from fiction, let us agree to disagree, but I suspect we can at least agree that reflection can be a valuable asset for every one of us.

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I prefer to say: Fiction is fiction.  Reality is reality.  Those who try to link them together are the ones who can't tell the difference.

On this, we are in agreement; if nothing else.   I can learn through fiction, but I'm not so crazy as to blur the lines of fantasy versus reality.

[Deep Blue]

1 hour ago, Zalor said:

Yes, I do beleive that VNs as a medium can tap into realistic modes of human thought. Very few of them do, but there are some out there, and the medium definitely has the potential to have more of such works. I emphasize the ability of VNs to communicate human thought, because even in VNs where some unrealistic events are happening, the emotions and that characters feel could still be portrayed realistically. 

A few VNs that I feel succeed in capturing realistic emotional (and sometimes intellectual) responses are: Narcissu, Symphonic Rain, Yume Miru Kusuri, and Swan Song. Then there is Sayooshi, which while it portrayed the perspective of an insane person, did a really good job in portraying his insanity. There is no reason why VNs can't have intellectual merit. There exists a scarcity of such works because 1) it is an entirely new medium that has only really been around since the 90's. 2) The medium isn't profitable enough, and when money is tight, content creators are more scared of the risk of doing creating something unique.   

yep my thoughts exactly 

[OriginalRen]

I'm going to say no, VNs are not representative of real life in a lot of ways. The main reason I say this is due to the fact that almost every character in a normal (non fantasy/action) visual novel setting revolves around high school and characters who are 15-17 years old. While I do believe certain situations do occur in our high school lives (and in Japan), the immaturity level of people around this age (myself included when I was that age) don't grasp the amount of drama thrust into their lives. The adult themes presented in a lot of slice of life anime/visual novels make me feel that even in high school, not a lot of people would understand and/or be exposed to that level of drama. More than likely, you haven't had kids, you haven't experienced a lot of death surrounding your life, and you haven't really "seen" a lot in the world yet. Is that entirely true? Absolutely not, everyone's situation is different, however I just feel at that age you haven't fully understood the way the world works yet, which makes me feel it isn't really a good way to judge real life. Getting a house, having a career, not having a lot of free time in the world - it's those things and more that really make you understand the different stages of life a lot more.

Talking solely about love, honestly I don't believe that high school is the place to figure out how to speak to people. When you get older (around my age) you realize how fucking stupid you were when you were younger and how at the end of the day, all that dramatic nervousness and bullshit you had with girls/guys in high school is pointless. People change their views and goals with age, and shit that mattered back then mean nothing now.

[Soulless Watcher]

I read visual novels because I have a loathing hatred of reality. I despise modern society and people in general, that is what makes me a fan of visual novels, the disconnect from reality. 

I find it strange that we must find something "valuable" in all forms of entertainment. The various different sports entertainment industries drains God knows how much money from people and wastes many hours from the lives of individuals..... and what does the average person gain from "sports"? Usually just several hangovers. Do people learn anything from watching comedies? I highly doubt it. Do people find the meaning of life at the bottom of a vodka bottle? ..... er well if they drive off the side of a road, crash into an orphanage, and die they might learn if they meet God.

If you wish to better yourself it is just downright bizarre to demand that entertainment mediums also give something to achieve this. If you wish to become a better person, study philosophy, read through various books on religion, meditate on the meaning of life, go out and volunteer in homeless shelters. It is the same when eating healthy, you don't expect every meal you eat to be healthy regardless of what you eat, you have to manage that yourself. 

[Zodai]

It depends on the work at hand, but getting the audience to believe in that world, whether it's heavily realistic like Swan Song or something like Sengoku Rance, can be considered part of the writer's job along with the rest of the staff.  It's an important part of what makes a piece of fiction work, and while I can tell this is close to the suspension of disbelief concept I can't tell if it's the exact same thing.

[Suzu Fanatic]

1 hour ago, Soulless Watcher said:

I find it strange that we must find something "valuable" in all forms of entertainment.

If you wish to better yourself it is just downright bizarre to demand that entertainment mediums also give something to achieve this.

There is no "must" "valuable" or "demand", It's simply about determining if we walk away with some insight while/or after reading something - if it has had an effect on us - sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

People find meanings in all kinds of things - without rhyme or reason. If you don't want to, or can't - then more power to you - but no one can/will force it on you.

It's like discovering something about yourself, while listening to a song - or have a change of perspective after watching a show on T.V. - it's all up to you if something provides insight or has meaning.

[Kaykeiokay]

I don't really "believe" in any media I consume.

1) Usually the work isn't conceived to be something that is to be believed, rather to simply be entertainment.

2) I would rather make my conclusions than simply taking work as it is.

Like art, the artist's intent usually shatters the expectation of the viewer and often dulls in comparison to the interpretation they came up with themselves. I believe that value you're seeking has little to do with the work themselves but rather with the viewer's own willingness to think more deeply in the ideas presented. Even with the blandest eroge can have value if you think about it in terms of how it panders to its audience and how that affects sales/reception in different markets. What details of this bland eroge made it successful/unsuccessful? Was there any ideas or plot points that would have made this eroge more enjoyable for me? Would said idea appeal to wider audiences? Why or why not? Anything can be valuable if you put the effort in, it just depends on how you look at it.

Then again, I am a hopeless romantic, so I would hate to believe the media I consume as a waste of time.

[littleshogun]

What I learned from VN, well I know crack, registry edit, patch, ISO, system locale, and torrent if you mean that involving in VN give me something to learn. Oh and understanding Japan from the spoken line a little.

For more serious answer, I think not really since we got so many 17 or so years old MC got many thing to deal with the problem in their real life that was too heavy for that kind of age. But I think it's quite entertaining in some way (Not in a bad way of course). Also I think we couldn't quite compared it to real life if we talk about VN, and about comparison to b/s/m I think it's based on different target market. Most VN was made with certain target in Japan (Teenager and adult, so hopefully the audience could differ between fantasy and reality), while b/s/m was probably tried to please general audience here (Of course it would need some kind of the reality grounded into it) I think.

Sorry if I could not write well here.

Edit - While I said I didn't believe VN, I agree that sometimes there's was a lesson that we could get from VN too. It's depend on the people if they could got the lesson from VN or not, I think.

[Arrakis]

Well I can honestly say that I've learned from some VN's, even though that wasn't my original goal. I approach VN's like most people I suppose, as a form of escapism. That said I've found myself at one time or another admiring character traits such as determination, integrity, courage, etc and I believe in some way shape or form I sometimes bring a little of this into my own life/thoughts/way of being.

I suppose as they say, emulation is the highest form of flattery. Now I'm not suggesting I act like people in VN's act. Merely that subconsciously I try to act in a way closer to the characters who have for whatever reason moved me, or I have admired for some reason. For example, I am by nature a tentative person and in the past rarely trusted myself to speak my mind openly. Now I see a character who is confident, courageous and takes leaps of faith based on self belief. I then act in a way which is still myself, but partially emulates the traits I have admired. I have felt this way about many forms of media over my lifetime, be they movies, fantasy/science fiction books, animations, VN's, games, literary works, autobiographies or news articles; and many people have likewise inspired me with their words, actions or deeds. That moment where for whatever reason, something gets you to consider things from another point of view you never considered, inspires you, or causes you to reexamine yourself.

Things that influence us, change or reinforce our thinking process and at some level that leads to different possibilities. At least that's what I think, so I guess you'd call that belief.

[Valmore]

On 4/9/2016 at 5:24 PM, Fiddle said:

I sure hope nobody's studying the female anatomy with VNs.

Are you telling me that's *not* what a vagina looks like?!?

I suppose I'll just have to go by television then:

Spoiler

And of course I believe in VNs. I have several of them on my computer as proof of their existence.

[john 'mr. customer' smith]

Clannad, while I acknowledge its many flaws, made me think a great deal about things like my own life, and the people that have been (and might become) a part of it. And it made me understand, too, about why my parents made the choices they made, and said the things they said.

While I know that a story is created by the reader just as much as by the writer; while I know that fiction should never be confused with reality:

Yes, I do believe in the power of stories. and to me, VNs can tell stories very powerfully indeed

[iamnoob]

[VirginSmasher]

33 minutes ago, Valmore said:

Are you telling me that's *not* what a vagina looks like?!?

And I though all vaginas looked like a bunch of pixels. 

[chaosfirebit]

I think we read VN's solely for the fact that we enjoy reading it. I think this also applies to other forms of medium too. Why do we love movies/books/tv shows? Simple: Because we enjoy them

[Einher]

That there are universally worthier/nobler forms of entertainment is a tempting idea. I have found myself considering over and over again: if UmiNeko and Tolstoi's books, for instance, are both a psychological evaluation about the depths of human despair, why the hell should I spend my time on a videogame instead of reading a masterpiece of literature?

But then, in the end, I think that to see certain form of pleasure/entertainment as superior than another (in this case b/s/m are superior to VNs) is a kind of outdated mindset, from a political and artistic standpoint. While I can enjoy more Shakespear's Hamlet, there's no self-supporting rational evidence why it should be categorically superior than a VN. 

John Stuart Mill tried to give evidence to this theory of superiority, and said that it was a rule that people would always choose a higher (worthier) pleasure over a lower one, but what we actually see is that even the most intellectual person could choose, sometimes, to read a VN instead of Crime and Punishment. 
That can be shown both by the popularity of TV shows (like The Simpsons) and of all the avant-garde movements of anti-art in the early 20th century, like Dadaism, in our culture. And we shoudl remember that the whole concept that everything is art and no art is superior to another is what moves modern and postmodern art.

[Hanako]

19 hours ago, VirginSmasher said:

And I though all vaginas looked like a bunch of pixels. 

Wait.. does it mean they don't react if the girl is refusing... I was sure that "no" was a pleasure enhancing word

 

I do not think we read VN to find answer to our question. But I know for a fact that they can change someone. For example, me being the yuri ghost is all thanks to the first Sonohana. I never judge or condemn someone for what they are or what they did, so VN "just" make me discover things I may like or not. But, a friend had his vision broaden thanks to them. On the subject of homosexuality it can show that they aren't differant from others and changed some viewpoint from "don't care about it as long as there is no one like that in my family" to "well if it's your choice then I accept it and will not reject you".

Also on the PTSD point, you can't say it depict it wrongly. I have friend that run away from it but also some friends that try to "beat" it. Sometime they want help, sometimes they don't. It really depends of the trauma and the person.

And the HS MC may be really good if used correctly. Most of the people have a matury boost in HS and change their viewpoint of a lot of this. But they still want to do silly things, experience new stuff etc. For me HS is the moment the biggest part of my personality blommed. For example in Akane's route, Kotarou matured a lot thanks to the event that happened in HS. My point is some VN show how one charac may grows in some realistic way, even if the setting is impossible in reality.

This medium, like any other, can let the writter share his viewpoint on a lot of thing (first example in mind is Ryuukishi and how he see the act of murder). Also if you're not afraid you can ask how Subahibi changed Ayana

So I don t think you read VN to "learn" stuff like maths or science but I do belive they can change the way you see thing since it can share the viewpoint of the writter.

[VirginSmasher]

3 hours ago, Hanako said:

Wait.. does it mean they don't react if the girl is refusing... I was sure that "no" was a pleasure enhancing word

If there is anything hentai has taught me, it's that when a girl is saying "stop" and "no," it means they're enjoying it. 

[Graah]

I've always thought it a bit dangerous to try to "learn" from fiction just because what happens in a story can be so different from real life.

You might have to unlearn it again just because the author was clueless/dishonest/just writing a beautiful story without trying to be realistic/etc.

[Kawasumi]

of course I dont believe in vns, its fiction lmao

[Ayana]

I believe in myself to continuously seek out and find hidden gems in Eroge for now and the future to come, and I can keep it up because I have several references I use/follow (certain people on Twitter) to find them and I'm not limited to only the haphazard selection of works that are being translated to English. I suspect that the issue of selection is going to change very soon given that two of these references, Conjueror and Garejei, are on-board the selection train and are committed to continuously bringing us the highest or the second highest scenario-ge to the best of their abilities.

I don't believe in B/M/S/VNs/Eroge/[X media], but I believe in media, and that I'll gain "intellectual value" (which, really, I'm attaching to the work), aka. enjoyment, from works I can find myself when I have that er, "faith". I've just then had to realize; despite using other people as references to find these, the fact still remains that I'm coming across them myself, and that's what I should "believe in" when it comes to media.

Just wait until Himawari and Subarashiki Hibi get released and then read/play those; they have a lot to tell/to teach and manage to do so in little words (which is the best IMO). I'm sure those two works will spur on more of these sorts of discussions and people will find more value in the discussions and then the media they surround as a result.

[gijimu]

I only read VNs just for sake of entertainment, nothing more. Also, most of VNs I like is chuunige ones, so why believe in fictional things?

But I admit that sometimes I am interested in some of VN characters' way of thinking and their philosophy, and it can affect my own way of thinking somewhat. Also, by reading more VNs I can create more options in my story writing.

For the h-scenes, I still can't trust them fully, because things like that are pretty exaggerated in abnormal way.