Do you believe in VNs?

[Vorathiel]

I was pondering about starting this threat for quite some time, but final 'nail' was from "Philosophical/psychological VN"  thread in recommendations.

" VN you can actually learn something from ". But do you really?
I have a big problem here myself. But first things first:
I'm reading lots of books, watching tv series, watching movies. I have a fair amount of knowledge about movies, much higher than 'regular watcher'. So I can easily distinct when somehting is 'valuable', or just plain shit.
And I believe in them. When charatcers in books/series/movies ['b/s/m' for future refference] are doing 'interesting' thngs I believe them. I believe that science b/s/m selling me is somehow right (of course I'm not going to believe in science in movies like Transformes or Lucy, but when highly acclaimed one is dealing with f.e biology, psychology, or 'down to earth' science I immidiatelly believe it).
I also believe in human interactions. When guy is approaching girl in interesting way, I believe that this could work. When characters are responding to 'normal live' events, like fe death of somebody close, I read or watch it and I believe that this behaviour could actually happen in real life.
I'm obtaining a knowledge about human behaviour, about patterns, about how they think, how they act, what could tickle them, what could irk them.

And there goes VNs. I spend more than last 6 month almost solely focusing on reading them. And I don't believe them. Like, at all.
Situations, even when they're down to earth, ignites sometimes so bizarre reactions from heroines, that sometimes it's just interesting to read how ridiculous this could be (I'm looking at you Grisaia, Sharin, Hoshimemo), but I never absorb this as any 'pattern' of how people actualy might act. When girls suffers from PTSD after some trauma in her childhood I believe in what movie is showing to me, but when VN is doing this I found it cancerous.
Same with science. Steins;Gate had a fair amount of actuall science, many aspects of that I was familiar with, so I could naturally believe that rest of it made sense too. But I couldn't. Other VNs killed that ability in me.

I'm reading VNs but other that pure 'fun' or 'cancerous fun', I don't find any valuable things, like I do in other creations of culture.
So when VN is 'making me think', like Sharin no Kuni was trying with theme of 'society', I think for myself about it, but when VN is proposing some answers I immidiatelly rejects them, believing that they're taken out of ass, scientifically innacurate.

How is it with you? Do you believe in VNs? Do you absorb what they're showing as something which mirrors RL to some point, or rejects it all? And how it looks for you with b/s/m?

[Fiddle]

I sure hope nobody's studying the female anatomy with VNs.

[Yuuko]

I do not usually "believe" in VNs because most of the time they are not even trying to mirror real life. There are somethings that I do believe in like family or love but those are special~

I think I should also mention that I have barely watched any movies or read barely any books during the last 5 years or so. 

[Suzu Fanatic]

From my perspective, i feel you are taking them too much from a literzl perspective.

That aside, VNs allow me to reflect on my own life and way of thinking/feeling. I often cannot relate, but I can "compare notes" so to speak. How would I react in a such a situation? How would I feel? How does his handling of a hopeless situation compare to me and my own circumstances? It doesn't matter if a VN's situation is unrealistic - what matters is the basic message behind it.

That kind of stuff~

 

People that take VNs at face value alone won't walk away with much, other than basic entertainment - which is fine. But they can't expect to really learn much about themselves or others - without some deeper reflection.

 

EDIT: of course, there are some VNs with zero meaning whatsoever, like pure nukige -  but I rarely touch that stuff.

[Vorathiel]

4 minutes ago, Fiddle said:

I sure hope nobody's studying the female anatomy with VNs.

Well, I didn't say a word about H, because it's so ridiculous, that I don't believe that anybody could take it seriously. ;p Which is also a shame, cause if it was fairly realistic it could be a nice 'guide' to how to be better in bed. Like little tricks and tips, not 'instruction' obviously. But instead we have three times nipple pinching and orgasm. Sigh.

 

2 minutes ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

That aside, VNs allow me to reflect on my own life and way of thinking/feeling. I often cannot relate, but I can "compare notes" so to speak. How would I react in a such a situation? How would I feel? How does his handling of a hopeless situation compare to me and my own circumstances?

That's interesting. And I must say I agree, although I was doing it rather unconsciously. Still - it's still me, myself, and nothing about others and how they could think. 

[VirginSmasher]

Even if some VNs take me on an emotional journey, I really don't believe in them. I can't relate to the characters because VNs are barely ever realistic most of the time. I just enjoy them for the ride they take me on.

[Suzu Fanatic]

26 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

That's interesting. And I must say I agree, although I was doing it rather unconsciously. Still - it's still me, myself, and nothing about others and how they could think. 

Maybe not directly, as some of the reactions and behaviors are downright silly - but think of it from another perspective - on a very basic level, it's a clear and obvious example that everyone has a different perspective, thoughts, and feelings - separate from you, and/or the MC. Might seems like an obvious thing - but many often forget that we are each merely "one of many".

 

Hmm, not sure if I'm expressing it right, I guess the best I can say is that it establishes and reminds us of individuality.

[XReaper]

i hope you dont expect a honest answer from an almost 30y old dude who ended up a shut-in, communicates in rl through line only & occassionally scares his surroundings due to him crossdressing as saint seiyas shaina.... :/

[Vorathiel]

1 minute ago, XReaper said:

i hope you dont expect a honest answer from an almost 30y old dude who ended up a shut-in, communicates in rl through line only & occassionally scares his surroundings due to him crossdressing as saint seiyas shaina.... :/

Pics or it didn't happened.

But seriously - I do expect. That would be interesting point of view. Is somebody, who is shut in, believing in VNs as a source about human behaviour.

[Funnerific]

The more I read VNs, the more I come to realise how bullshit almost all of them are. I've had suspension of disbelief broken almost in every VN I've read in the past year. Sometimes I look back on the stuff I enjoyed in the past and wonder how could I possibly have liked it.

So no, I don't believe almost any VN, and I might not believe one that deserves to be believed simply because of my past experiences.

[XReaper]

11 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

Pics or it didn't happened.

But seriously - I do expect. That would be interesting point of view. Is somebody, who is shut in, believing in VNs as a source about human behaviour.

excluding mindless crap & stuff made for entertainment only, there´re still awhole lot of stories left, which i do take at face value, or in whose message i truly believe.
works like mugen kairou etc have undoubtably changed the way i am

edit. even some semi-nukige like starless are at their core nothing but todays reality in a nutshell.

[Nerathim]

It's almost stupid to choose in which medium you believe or not. In fact, it is stupid. Fictions are fictions, no matter how you experience them, be it books, vns or movies. I don't gulp down what I read out of credulity but it still manages me to make me curious on several subjects; which leads me to make some research on the matter and actually learn something as a result (or just to think about what I am experiencing if it is somehow thought-provoking). And that happens in every single medium.

You can't dismiss a whole medium no matter what it is as it will never be inherently inferior or superior to anything by itself.

[Funnerific]

7 minutes ago, Nerathim said:

It's almost stupid to choose in which medium you believe or not. In fact, it is stupid. Fictions are fictions, no matter how you experience them, be it books, vns or movies. I don't gulp down what I read out of credulity but it still manages me to make me curious on several subjects; which leads me to make some research on the matter and actually learn something as a result (or just to think about what I am experiencing if it is somehow thought-provoking). And that happens in every single medium.

You can't dismiss a whole medium no matter what it is as it will never be inherently inferior or superior to anything by itself.

The standards and points of view are different. The Japanese see eroge as entertainment, we call the same thing visual novels and see it as literature.

When was the last time you or anyone saw good and proper English in an untranslated Japanese work? The answer is never, because they just don't care - all that matters is that they shove in some English and make it look cool. That's merely one area where our standards are different.

Spoiler

I know I'm jaded, but care to prove me wrong?

 

[ChasedHydra]

b

Edited December 25, 2020 by ChasedHydra

[Zalor]

Yes, I do beleive that VNs as a medium can tap into realistic modes of human thought. Very few of them do, but there are some out there, and the medium definitely has the potential to have more of such works. I emphasize the ability of VNs to communicate human thought, because even in VNs where some unrealistic events are happening, the emotions and that characters feel could still be portrayed realistically. 

A few VNs that I feel succeed in capturing realistic emotional (and sometimes intellectual) responses are: Narcissu, Symphonic Rain, Yume Miru Kusuri, and Swan Song. Then there is Sayooshi, which while it portrayed the perspective of an insane person, did a really good job in portraying his insanity. There is no reason why VNs can't have intellectual merit. There exists a scarcity of such works because 1) it is an entirely new medium that has only really been around since the 90's. 2) The medium isn't profitable enough, and when money is tight, content creators are more scared of the risk of doing creating something unique.   

[Suzu Fanatic]

@vorathiel As someone that has experienced a fair bit in life, I can say with relative confidence, that a person CAN learn from certain VNs - but they have to be willing to learn, and also look within themselves. For example - you mentioned a Heroine suffering PTSD - do you think the writer just wants you to simply feel sorry for her? Or do you try to understand her perspective? Her pain? That's something that can be carried into real life - are you willing to/can you try to understand the emotions of another?

[Nerathim]

2 minutes ago, Funnerific said:

The standards are different. The Japanese see eroge as entertainment, we call the same thing visual novels and see it as literature.

It is not because most of VNs are nukige that you can label every single other VN as nothing more than entertainment.

[Funnerific]

1 minute ago, Nerathim said:

It is not because most of VNs are nukige that you can label every single other VN as nothing more than entertainment.

You're confusing eroge and nukige, it appears. All nukige are eroge, but not all eroge are nukige. The plot-packed G-senjou no Maou is an eroge, for instance.

[Flutterz]

58 minutes ago, Fiddle said:

I sure hope nobody's studying the female anatomy with VNs.

I am, hasn't let me down so far!

But while VNs might not all be a shining example of how relationships work irl, you can definitely learn something from them, especially if you read something like Ever17 or Umineko instead of Majikoi or DracuRiot.

[sanahtlig]

I've indeed learned something from VNs.  I learned Japanese.  And that's all I expected to learn.

I can't really say I've learned anything significant about life from reading fiction.  If I want to learn something, I'll go read a Wikipedia entry (and I do plenty of that too).

[Nerathim]

Just now, Funnerific said:

You're confusing eroge and nukige, it appears.

I assume you refer to VNs as eroge and nukige is merely a tag, referring to vndb.

[Funnerific]

3 minutes ago, Nerathim said:

I assume you refer to VNs as eroge and nukige is merely a tag, referring to vndb.

Nukige is a game that gives priority to sexual content over story, different from VNs that combine substantial story with high sexual content.

[Suzu Fanatic]

4 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

I've indeed learned something from VNs.  I learned Japanese.  And that's all I expected to learn.

I can't really say I've learned anything significant about life from reading fiction.  If I want to learn something, I'll go read a Wikipedia entry (and I do plenty of that too).

Really? You've never been reminded of your own moral standpoints or preconceptions at any point while reading VNs? An event, discussion, or concept within never made you "think" beyond the scope of the VN itself?

[Nerathim]

6 minutes ago, Funnerific said:

Nukige is a game that gives priority to sexual content over story, different from games that combine substantial story with high sexual content.

Sexual content is more than often totally irrelevant to the story and only present so the VN won't tank. (I think of Eden*)

It doesn't mean there can't be any deeper signification in the story because of this.

 

Quote

When was the last time you or anyone saw good and proper English in an untranslated Japanese work? The answer is never, because they just don't care - all that matters is that they shove in some English and make it look cool. That's merely one area where our standards are different.

Even when it comes to professional matters you don't see proper english from japanese speaking people. They most likely have a big problem with the language instead of just not caring about their work.

[Vorathiel]

6 minutes ago, Nerathim said:

It's almost stupid to choose in which medium you believe or not.

Well, thing is I do not choose. It is what it is, subconsciously. 

7 minutes ago, Zalor said:

Yes, I do beleive that VNs as a medium can tap into realistic modes of human thought. Very few of them do, but there are some out there, and the medium definitely has the potential to have more of such works. I emphasize the ability of VNs to communicate human thought, because even in VNs where some unrealistic events are happening, the emotions and that characters feel could still be portrayed realistically. 

A few VNs that I feel succeed in capturing realistic emotional (and sometimes intellectual) responses are: Narcissu, Symphonic Rain, Yume Miru Kusuri, and Swan Song. Then there is Sayooshi, which while it portrayed the perspective of an insane person, did a really good job in portraying his insanity. There is no reason why VNs can't have intellectual merit. There exists a scarcity of such works because 1) it is an entirely new medium that has only really been around since the 90's. 2) The medium isn't profitable enough, and when money is tight, content creators are more scared of the risk of doing creating something unique.   

Good point with YMK! It actually had a nice, 'realistic' characterisation. But did I believed that? No. Because even if VN is portraying somebody with down to earth manner, whole medium accustomed me to it's fakeness I just straight rejects any links to real life human beings.

9 minutes ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

For example - you mentioned a Heroine suffering PTSD - do you think the writer just wants you to simply feel sorry for her? Or do you try to understand her perspective? Her pain? That's something that can be carried into real life - are you willing to/can you understand the emotions of another?

Oh, I did understand. It was logicall, it make sense, it was well written, it was impactfull, it was good. But still - I just can't imagine real life person with PTSD to act like that heroine. And if I really be standing across somebody with that syndrome I would really put a thought in that 'were actions they made towards PTSD person in VN really appropriate?', instead of just acting basing on experience/knowledge I took from movies or books.

8 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

I can't really say I've learned anything significant about life from reading fiction.  If I want to learn something, I'll go read a Wikipedia entry (and I do plenty of that too).

But wiki will not give you examples of how to act in variety of situations. It's just dry knowledge. And also - nobody is reading fiction with attitude 'to learn'. Enjoyment is always first, eventuall knowledge is always later.