Frontwing announces the next VN they're localizing, and it's... Sharin no Kuni?

[Fred the Barber]

9 hours ago, Rooke said:

Nah, the sale numbers are not crazy good. 16k is good for a niche, but the 30-40 dollar price tag is considered overpriced. The top selling VNs are priced around 10 dollars and sell about 150k units (I’m not including Sakura Spirit or Huniepop which sold twice as much again,) which stands to reason because that’s sorta the price an expensive digital novel goes for. Nekopara sold 200k though. 

The ’40 hour’ gauge is out, I think it’s done on autoplay? I dunno what it’s based off, but I find it tends to be a little off.

The VN industry isn't in a good place in Japan, and people within that industry blame the high price point. It's a young people's medium mostly, and how many young people can afford to read 80 dollar books? The idea of comparing the 30 dollar price point in the West with the 80 dollar price point in Japan and comment that we're 'getting it cheap' is disputable. Imo, we're getting it a little less expensive than what the poor sods in Japan are being forced to fork out. 

Ahh, sorry, I should clarify my stance on prices in general, and VN prices in particular, before people think I'm nuts (too late? much too late? oh well).

Here's the two criteria for how I judge the price of something that I like:

• Is it affordable for me personally? If not, I don't like it. (the obvious criterion)
• Is there an alternative pricing model that would noticeably increase profit for the developer? (the less obvious criterion)

VN prices are fine by me on the first criterion, but on the second one, I'm pretty sure they're stupid, in the US and Japan both. Like both you and @OriginalRen are implying, if the cost of quality digital VNs was much cheaper, the developers would almost certainly be reaping a lot more profit because of vastly increased sales (coupled with the vastly lower marginal COGS for a digital good, of course). Maybe worth noting this doesn't work at all for physical goods because of that parenthetical comment, and that this probably explains why Japanese companies are hesitant to even try this strategy - their solvency right now is too reliant on the costumers who are willing to pay super-high costs for physical goods. Even if they kept that limited edition around, if they started also selling the same stuff for 1/8 the cost digitally, I bet (and I bet they bet) they'd start hemorrhaging that elite customer base.

What I was getting at earlier when talking about price was merely that I don't think high cost is sufficient to explain the degree of poor sales seen by G-Senjou, Gahkthun, and Tokyo Babel (assuming things don't change), given Grisaia's equally high cost and vastly better sales.

And, yes, I understand Grisaia is no juggernaut - it only does well by comparison to other high-cost, long VNs. Quite a lot of qualifiers on that, by now. Notably also in the same ballpark, on both sales numbers and price, unsurprisingly: Clannad. But it's obviously exceptional: it's got quite a leg up because of the well-liked anime adaptation, which Grisaia certainly doesn't have.

[Zenophilious]

2 hours ago, sanahtlig said:

Sure, but if Amazon is allowing it, then there isn't some nefarious organization decreeing that visual novels are "For sale in Japan only".  As far as I know, that's a rule that applies specifically to eroge, and those rules are set by the EOCS (otherwise known as Sofurin).  Those rules have been strictly enforced since the Rapelay incident, and the reasoning is pretty clear.

I never said that, though.  If anything, I thought it was more about being cautious than anything else; I know there were no rules against selling all-ages copies of VNs to us filthy がいこくじん, but most retailers seemed to do it anyway, unless the seller wasn't a store and intentionally selected International Shipping.

I know that I sound really negative about this whole thing, but you guys really should wait before you get on the Kickstarter bandwagon.  The Prefundia page isn't even out yet, and you're already saying you'll back it?  That's absurd, especially considering how money-hungry Frontwing has acted in the past in regard to the west and that Akabei Soft2 has a pretty unsavory reputation over in Japan.  I'd advise patience and caution over hype and celebration.

[sanahtlig]

4 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

I never said that, though.  If anything, I thought it was more about being cautious than anything else; I know there were no rules against selling all-ages copies of VNs to us filthy がいこくじん, but most retailers seemed to do it anyway, unless the seller wasn't a store and intentionally selected International Shipping.

Whatever you believe, the difference is important.  My guess is that J-List's prices are so high for eroge imports because they buy the games at retail price rather than wholesale (because the distributors won't sell the products at wholesale price to a company that won't follow the rules against exporting eroge).  Of course maybe the reason is much simpler: J-List can't buy the games in volume because the demand for Japanese-language eroge overseas just isn't there.

[ChaosRaven]

If Frontwing are making a Kickstarter for Sharin no Kuni, then it would be nice if they would add the fan disc Yuukyuu no Shounenshoujo as a stretch goal. That would make the campaign a lot more interesting since the fan disc was never fully translated, it just got a partial translation.

I already own the Japanese original so I'm a bit hesitant to back the whole thing. But if the translation of the fan disc would be an option, then things would look a bit different for me.

Well, I guess I just have to wait until the campaign starts to find out...

[bigfatround0]

48 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

If Frontwing are making a Kickstarter for Sharin no Kuni, then it would be nice if they would add the fan disc Yuukyuu no Shounenshoujo as a stretch goal. That would make the campaign a lot more interesting since the fan disc was never fully translated, it just got a partial translation.

I already own the Japanese original so I'm a bit hesitant to back the whole thing. But if the translation of the fan disc would be an option, then things would look a bit different for me.

Well, I guess I just have to wait until the campaign starts to find out...

It was fully translated but I think only Houziki's route was edited.

[Decay]

2 minutes ago, bigfatround0 said:

It was fully translated but I think only Houziki's route was edited.

TLWiki only translated the Houzuki route. Later on down the line, someone on 4chan released a barely-edited Atlas machine translation or something for everything else, it's extremely bad.

[Scorp]

Other routes are just a stupid mumbling along with sex scenes, really. Ririko route is a 3 hours or infinite mockery of protag and stupidity. Other girls are not much better, infinite cooking works vs infinite painting works. Anyway, translation did not look like a machine (having in mind tons of typos there), but very literal, that's for sure. But for that "story" which happen there - no translation would make it shine, as it is triumph of repetiveness and VN tropes, you will be bored to hell no matter what.

So, as they will release all-age version, I believe it would be version everyone saw on Xbox360/PS3, and it already have Houzuki route as integral part of the game. No point in FD at all.

[Chronopolis]

15 hours ago, Decay said:

Sharin no Kuni was extremely popular several years ago, but recently you barely ever see anyone talk about it, I guess it's not too surprising if someone could participate in the modern VN community for awhile without ever really hearing about it.

Yeah, to contrast that in even G-Senjou, Grisia was a game that used to dominate the /visaulnovels/ frontpage until the subreddit organized up. Perhaps the large potential for in-group jokes and quotes from the VN helped contribute to its community presence. G-senjou's just like the game everyone plays once and that's it.

[ChaosRaven]

It's clear that there's more talk about Grisaia than G-Senjou or Sharin. G-Senjou and Sharin are finished and most people have already read them, so there isn't much to talk about anymore.

But everyone is starting to wonder if Sekai Project is throwing a Jast with the Grisaia sequels since they really take their damn time with those. And all the backers already paid for those, so it's just natural that they want to see something for their money - and preferable still in this decade.

There was also not much talk about MuvLuv, but the Kickstarter vaporized every Kickstarter record for VN's by a mile. There's also not much talk about F/SN anymore, but I guess most people can still remember the results of Conjuerors contest?!

Talk of the day in Fuwa ≠ General popularity

[Decay]

The prefundia is live: http://prefundia.com/projects/view/sharin-no-kuni-a-japanese-visual-novel-localization-project/9059/

$140,000 for the base goal, $240,000 for the Houzuki Chapter (from the fandisc)

Quote

Localization: The Frontwing Translation Team
A brand new in-house translation team formed to localize games for the English-speaking market. Every member of the team is a native, or native-level, speaker of English. They have experience translating games, anime and manga, and have spent many years studying Japanese and Japanese-English translation.

Here are a few words from the translation team:
"Hi everyone, it's great to finally meet you all! As fans of the game ourselves, we are committed to creating a definitive version of Sharin that does justice to the original work. While we can't reply to questions and comments individually, we know how important it is to respect and listen to fans of the game. With little information about who we are, it's understandable that people may have some misgivings about us, but we hope we can begin to build trust with everyone from this point on."

Quote

Q:  Are you going to be using the fan translation?
A:  While we have permission from TLWiki to use the existing fan translation, it will only be used for reference, and the localization team will be carefully combing through it for translation, wording, and other errors. As a result, the official version will be heavily edited, although some similar passages may remain.

Q:  Is there going to be an 18+ patch?
A:  Unfortunately, due to Kickstarter and Steam's regulations, we cannot include adult material as part of this project. However, providing there is enough demand, we'll discuss its official development and distribution with the developer...

They have a strange definition of "used for reference," since in this case it seems like they will use it as the basis of their entire translation. However, while it's not a great TL by any means and the original team seems dissatisfied with it, if they give it the same treatment the Muv Luv team is giving to those games, there's still room to get a good quality product.

[RikiSanic]

The campaign looks very well put together (especially when compared to the recent ChuSinGura fiasco), but damn does that goal seem unnecessarily high. It's the same as Clannad's, slightly higher than Root Double's, and the Hozuki chapters (which don't have that much content) are an additional $100,000.

Like I said, the presentation is competent and reassuring, but that goal might scare off some people and call the campaign's purpose into question. Then again, it is well-regarded in the community and if they properly communicate it still might have a good shot—we'll have to see how they move forward.

Quote

"If this project is successful, we intend to bring more Japanese visual novels to international fans in the future."

Against my better judgment this statement makes me interested in backing... (As long as all goes well, of course.)

[Decay]

Yeah, overall it's a very well-composed and professional looking campaign, and it seems to be more about kickstarting FW as a localization company than SnK itself. 

[XReaper]

it´s pretty much all about the last statement of theirs, the faint glimmer of hope of them consider doing additional works after this campaigns possible success, which might be the key-factor in getting people to actually back said project like there´ll no tomorrow, abit similar to what has happened before regarding degica aka 5pb aka mages
in disguise.

edit. this still wont justify the enourmous gap of 100k between the main game & its houzuki chapter, or their stance on turning the whole thing into a moneymonger-ish dlc fest =/

[Zenophilious]

Holy Jesus, that "DLC" is pure cancer.  I figured there'd be some kind of cash grab in there, and there it is.  They are actually trying to pass off a basic feature of visual novels that has been standard for years as premium content.  Seriously, fuck FrontWing.  If they don't remove that I hope this Kickstarter crashes and burns.

EDIT: Also, 100k for just the Houzuki route of the fandisc?  Actually insane.  I mean, yeah, the rest of it is nukige-esque garbage and fluff, but that's just absurd.  This whole thing reeks of FrontWing wanting to milk the west for every last cent they can get out of people that are dumb enough to give them money.  I retract what I said earlier.  Even if they remove the "DLC", they should still fail.

[solidbatman]

I'm never one to wish failure on legit VN localization, but this needs to fail. Cutting content to resell as DLC is a scam. Frontwing deserves to fail if they go forward with that DLC plan. 

 

And yes, I am against cutting H scenes to resell them as DLC as well. Release a free patch, or sell 18+ version on separate store front. 

[Decay]

It doesn't need to fail, it needs to change.

[Zenophilious]

I'd argue that even suggesting it merits some sort of tangible negative consequence, since that's basically EA-level DLC (regardless of the price) on top of them asking for us to fund their own business venture that they definitely could have paid for themselves.  I mean, I knew that they were greedy, but I didn't think that they were so greedy that they were willing to hurt their own reputation on this level.  I will not believe that nobody told them that that was a bad idea.

[the_dive]

These dudes are high as hell off their own farts with their DLC shenanigans. Count me out unless some changes are made.

[Darklord Rooke]

3 hours ago, Zenophilious said:

Holy Jesus, that "DLC" is pure cancer.  I figured there'd be some kind of cash grab in there, and there it is.  They are actually trying to pass off a basic feature of visual novels that has been standard for years as premium content.  Seriously, fuck FrontWing.  If they don't remove that I hope this Kickstarter crashes and burns.

Guys, you're missing a crucial piece of information before you make this judgement - are they selling the 'deluxe version', which includes all the normal aspects of a VN, at a pricepoint over the norm of the industry thus going some way to validating your suggestion of some kind of a 'cashgrab'? Or instead, are they offering the 'regular edition' at a reduced pricepoint, which would mean what they're doing is instead offering a cheaper, 'no frills' edition for those who don't care about a sound mode or a CG gallery? If what they're doing is the latter, there's no cause for complaints (if you don't want it, don't buy it.) Right now though, we don't have enough information to tell. Because of this, there's probably a lot of premature anger flying around about it.

The translation team holds promise, the character descriptions are written in tight English which while is not indicative of the sort of stuff found in the game, offers encouragement that their translators' impressive resume is legit.

The kickstarter amount is high, but if the translation team they assembled is as accomplished as they suggest, they would cost a pretty penny. Good translators are worth every penny though, so if evidence comes out of a superior translation, the kickstarter amount shouldn't be held against them. Let the fellas get paid, the industry skimps enough on wages as it is. Also rewards are expensive, you guys have no idea how much. 

So the Kickstarter looks promising, it can turn out bad or good. There hasn't been enough information presented for a fresh wave of anger, though.

[sanahtlig]

I agree with Rooke.  In fact, I'd go even further: I do think Frontwing's goal here is to appeal to price-sensitive Steam shoppers who won't pay more than $20 for a game.  My guess is they'll sell the low-priced version for $20 and the normal version for $30.

Regardless, Kickstarter backers will get the normal version for $20, which is very reasonable.  Who cares about the alternative Steam version?  That option isn't even offered to backers, so why are people complaining about it?  Frontwing could have left out the section describing the low-priced edition entirely and no one would've been the wiser (or cared).  People are fixating on a red herring.

The campaign looks professional, much moreso than I would've expected from Frontwing's antics so far.

Frontwing declined to commit to an adult release, which disqualifies them from my support.  Oh well, time to add another entry to my censored eroge list.  At least they confronted the issue head-on in the project description instead of simply dodging it and hoping people don't notice.  I respect that, and it really speaks for the professionalism of this campaign. 

[Zenophilious]

Except the "normal" price point for the west and Japan aren't really comparable.  Very few people here would buy VNs if they started out at $80.  You can't just point to the Japanese market and say, "It costs this much there, so it makes sense to remove features if you want this price range over here".  The features are already there.  It costs literally nothing to include them because they already exist.  That is part of what they're paying (oh wait, they're not really paying anything, we're supposed to pay it for them because reasons) to license.  Removing existing features and then charging people extra for them is ludicrous when you don't have to pay more to implement them in your version of the product.  I disliked it when Sekai sold a voiceless version of G-senjou because I thought it was an inferior version of the VN, but at least they had an actual reason for doing that (they were paying for the license out of pocket, for once, and were trying to cut voice acting licensing costs) and weren't just raring at the bit to sell DLC.  Doing so would make sense if they were basically making an entirely new release for it, but they aren't.  They are double-dipping off of work that Akabei already (presumably, I have no way of knowing) profited off of.

I honestly don't understand why you're trying to defend such a scummy practice of cutting out features that already exist and cost absolutely nothing to include and nickle-and-diming people to put them back in.  They're getting a lot of backlash for this for a reason, and I can guarantee you, it's not because we're "entitled" or "spoiled", or whatever words I'm sure will be thrown around by people supporting Frontwing.  It's because it's a shitty, unpopular move.  I can guarantee you, any company that did the same would get the exact same reaction, not just Frontwing.  We've been dealing with increasingly shitty DLC practices for years, a la EA and Ubisoft (oh, and #fucKonami), and you really don't think people have a good reason to be upset?  Really?

Quote

Never thought I would see a DLC pack worse than horse armor, but here it is.

 

[Darklord Rooke]

17 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

Except the "normal" price point for the west and Japan aren't really comparable. 

??? Nobody mentioned the ‘normal Japanese price point’ at all, mainly because the Western market and the Japanese market are two different entities. And there's nothing to suggest a Japanese price point on the Prefundia page, so I don't know what you're going on about here. When I mentioned the 'norm of the industry' I implied 'the norm of the western market'.

18 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

The features are already there.  It costs literally nothing to include them because they already exist. 

That is true, it has to do with the idea that creative content costs time, money, and labour, and that this should be represented in the final package. Also other Business 101 reasons, as in you believe it's not profitable to offer a full version at a cheap price and so you don't.

The idea of charging more or less for a product has to do with how many features are implemented in your VN. Assume the normal price of a VN is $40 (as it is in the Western market ... sorta.) Assume you acknowledge that a number of people would never buy a VN at that price. Assume the market and powers that be would never consider selling a full version of a VN at a significantly cheaper price. Assume you want to attempt to target this potentially untapped portion of the market. The only way to do this would be to offer a version with fewer features than the full version, and to apply a price that represents the reduced package you are offering. Yes, it doesn’t cost anything extra to offer the whole packaged at that reduced price, but you wouldn’t due it for reasons stated above. They are adopting a strategy to try and target those who don’t want to fork out a premium price and putting together a package to fulfill that strategy. It’s not ‘scummy’, they are not ‘double dipping’, they are not ‘charging extra’ for a DLC if the cheaper version + DLC = the price of the normal version. And not all ‘DLC’ is ‘shitty DLC’.

21 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

I disliked it when Sekai sold a voiceless version of G-senjou because I thought it was an inferior version of the VN

Not your call. Whether some people want an 'inferior version' is not your call to make - it's the consumers, and the market. They offered a full version for you, so you should be happy. You shouldn't be so unsporting as to deny people who want a cheaper, inferior version at a cheaper price point because it's a product you see no value in. Your opinions are not theirs, and you shouldn't try and force your opinion onto them. Personally, I find little use in voice acting, I view it as a needless development expense.

23 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

I honestly don't understand why you're trying to defend such a scummy practice of cutting out features that already exist and cost absolutely nothing to include and nickle-and-diming people to put them back in.  

Because I recognise that my world view isn't the only view worth listening to, that other people have different views, and that more people in the VN community should do the same. If the cheaper version + the DLC = the price of the deluxe version (and the prices haven't been established yet, so you can't tell one way or another) then it's not cash grabbing to separate the game and charge for them individually. It's an acknowledgement that some people don't care about voices, or whatnot, but at a later date they may want the option of adding things back in.

26 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

They're getting a lot of backlash for this for a reason, and I can guarantee you, it's not because we're "entitled" or "spoiled",

No, it's because the VN community are full of people who don't like it when their views aren't adopted to the letter. It's an intolerant place, many people in it don't tolerate other people's views. For example, like how the majority of the community don't like otome or boy love getting so many releases, like how people don't like there to be EVEN AN OPTION for an English dub in the menu, even if it's able to be toggled on and off, and like how people don't want others to have the option to purchase a 'reduced-feature' version at a 'reduced' price. 

27 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

We've been dealing with increasingly shitty DLC practices for years, a la EA and Ubisoft (oh, and #fucKonami), and you really don't think people have a good reason to be upset?  Really?

I have yet to see any evidence to suggest this is a 'shitty, DLC move.' 

Let's recap:
- There's nothing wrong with what G-Senjou offered. Anyone who wants to whine about an inferior package can shut up and buy the full package.
- There is nothing (YET) to suggest Frontwing are price-gouging DLC
- There is nothing (YET) to suggest Frontwing are offering the normal product for a price over the Western market norm

What ARE people getting up in arms about?

[sanahtlig]

8 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Assume you want to attempt to target this potentially untapped portion of the market. The only way to do this would be to offer a version with fewer features than the full version, and to apply a price that represents the reduced package you are offering. Yes, it doesn’t cost anything extra to offer the whole packaged at that reduced price, but you wouldn’t due it for reasons stated above. They are adopting a strategy to try and target those who don’t want to fork out a premium price and putting together a package to fulfill that strategy.

Here's my take: they want to sell to price-sensitive customers.  They ALSO want traditional VN customers to pay full price.  So they came up with a strategy that takes away a feature that hardcore fans want and casual shoppers don't care about.  It's a pretty good business strategy to maximize revenue.

But again, none of this matters if you're backing the game on Kickstarter.

[Darklord Rooke]

Just now, sanahtlig said:

Here's my take: they want to sell to price-sensitive customers.  They ALSO want traditional VN customers to pay full price.  So they came up with a strategy that takes away a feature that hardcore fans want and casual shoppers don't care about.  It's a pretty good business strategy to maximize revenue.

Agree completely. If this is what's happening, I don't see what the fuss is about. Completely confused, here.

[Maxel]

They should just go home...