Dating sims aren't bad at reflecting real life, but are VNs as well? (GameTheory p2)

[babiker]

So, the second vid is out:

While I do understand that both the past video and this one don't exactly bring new discoveries to how you should date, I think it highlighting the important parts of what you should and should not do to get a real grill is very enlightening, and self assuring. I personally think I'm going to take Huniepop, and games like it, more seriously after watching this. I never considered giving gifts to be a big deal for example (I thought it was just a cheap way to get a grill), but now I understand both how important it is and how to do it right.

Whether you look at it the same way or not, I would like to ask if you think the same can be said about the popular VNs in this community. The kinds Matt brings up as an example are mostly dating sims, which aren't really the same as your average Japanese VN. The latter tend to have more story and less mechanics, it's not as simple as getting to sleep with a girl. The methods used in things like KEY VNs in particular feel a little... Extreme and unrealistic. It's been a few years since I last read Clannad so I don't remember it too well, but I recall thinking "who dafak does this irl, these silly fapanese VNs"  I suppose it would require me to read VNs in a whole new light in order to come to a satisfactory conclusion, taking them a lot more seriously than I usually do. But what do ya'll think? : >

[Down]

Ah, thanks for reminding me how everything surrounding dating advices and this kind of crap makes me want to throw up. The best part was probably when he spends 2 minutes advertising shitty dating advice books.

19 minutes ago, babiker said:

I personally think I'm going to take Huniepop, and games like it, more seriously after watching this.

Pro tip: I don't think calling girls with racist slurs works very well irl.

[Okarin]

Best advice is knowing lots of girls/boys. How? well that's up to you. Just do lots of things > meet lots of people > make lots of friends provided you aren't a jerk > pick your waifu > win.

And yes it takes some improvement of yourself. And no adolescent love isn't its most perfect form (as VNs and all Japanese media leads us to believe), that age is just hormone-fueled anarchy and chaos. It's possible meeting the love of your life at an early age, but only the most fit individuals will get to keep the relationship going, and it's gonna change a lot along the way.

[Nosebleed]

As someone who's watched GameTheory for like a year now, I am very, very saddened by these 2 latest videos.

The bottom line is: There's no secret flawless formula to dating, just meet people you can feel comfortable around and form bonds with them. Don't assume it's a set of specific choices that will magically make them fall in love with you like in a game. Yes, there are some things you can do to make people like you more, but love will come as long as you're not a jerk about it. As for me, I am happily married to my anime pillow.

Also don't spend your money on dating books and online courses. Seriously. Don't.
You're better off spending your time watching random shit getting crushed by a hydraulic press.

[Soulless Watcher]

I actually tried watching this vid, couldn't make it to the end..... the cringe was real.

I still think that this is completely ridiculous, no one in their right mind would ever consider a "dating sim" to contain any decent info on dating in real life. It's kinda like saying that I'm now ready to fight in the middle east because I played several matches of a FPS or that I can run a farm because I made a hundred grand in stardew valley. Sure it may give a VASTLY general idea about the subject, but I wouldn't want to be operated on by a brain surgeon that only knows that the brain is located in the skull and nothing else about the organ. 

 

[Flutterz]

1 minute ago, Soulless Watcher said:

I actually tried watching this vid, couldn't make it to the end..... the cringe was real.

I still think that this is completely ridiculous, no one in their right mind would ever consider a "dating sim" to contain any decent info on dating in real life. It's kinda like saying that I'm now ready to fight in the middle east because I played several matches of a FPS or that I can run a farm because I made a hundred grand in stardew valley. Sure it may give a VASTLY general idea about the subject, but I wouldn't want to be operated on by a brain surgeon that only knows where brain is located in the skull and nothing else about the organ. 

A neurosurgeon with a Ph.D. in Surgeon Simulator... now that's a scary thought.

[Nosebleed]

3 minutes ago, Flutterz said:

A neurosurgeon with a Ph.D. in Surgeon Simulator... now that's a scary thought.

"Doctor?"

"Yes?"

"Why are you holding that hammer?"

"To open your skull, of course"

"I don't think that's how surgery works"

"Don't worry, as long as the blood count doesn't reach zero, you'll be fine!"

(...)

"Doctor, we lost the patient"

"What!? It hasn't even been 5 minutes!"

"He died from internal bleeding sir"

"I CALL HAX"

[Darklord Rooke]

2 hours ago, Down said:

Pro tip: I don't think calling girls with racist slurs works very well irl.

Are you sure? Absolutely positive? You don't feel the urge to test your hypothesis with real world experimentation? 

If you do ever feel like experimenting, remember to ... heh record/document your endeavours with a video camera and upload the video to a place where we can all ... enjoy thoroughly examine the results. Good luck  

[sanahtlig]

I find that the most believable depictions in VNs of realistic relationships involve blackmail and subjugation.  Relationships are complicated, but application of power is fairly straightforward.

NTR games tend to be a tad more realistic as well.

[Suzu Fanatic]

Said it the last thread, and I'll say it here. The most realistic thing a person can realize from VNs is empathy.

[Okarin]

1 hour ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

Said it the last thread, and I'll say it here. The most realistic thing a person can realize from VNs is empathy.

Still, lots of MCs are rather low on empathy towards their heroines.

I don't speak of otomes because I haven't played them and they're niche in the niche.

[Suzu Fanatic]

9 minutes ago, Okarin said:

Still, lots of MCs are rather low on empathy towards their heroines.

I don't speak of otomes because I haven't played them and they're niche in the niche.

I more mean from an outsiders perspective - unless the reader is truly disconnected, they can empathize with the content as it unfolds.

 

Though even from a MCs perspective - even the dense type - it boils down to "treat others how you want to be treated". It almost always pays off in life - and that is something most MCs (at least in the romcoms I can stand to read) come to realize over the course of a story.

 

Of course, there are exceptions, but that's just a part of life.

[Okarin]

Not only do you need to treat your love interest well, you need be proactive. After all, one could have the finest intentions, if you don't get to show them, they're as good as nothing.

IRL, most women will outright ignore you if you don't approach them properly.

Compare this with eroges where the girls are won off from minute 1.

[Suzu Fanatic]

2 hours ago, Okarin said:

Not only do you need to treat your love interest well, you need be proactive. After all, one could have the finest intentions, if you don't get to show them, they're as good as nothing.

IRL, most women will outright ignore you if you don't approach them properly.

Compare this with eroges where the girls are won off from minute 1.

That goes without saying - I only mentioned the one merit I felt VNs hold in RL situations. In the end, it involves human trial and error (though I guess there are plenty examples in VNs of what "not" to do lol) Still, relating with another is still a crucial piece of the puzzle that is "relationships". A long-lasting relationship survives through understanding and compromise.

 

As for the initial dating phase - it's all about confidence, proactiveness, and empathy. And VNs usually don't portray any of those, lol. (though the empathy matter has exceptions in VNs for readers, as I discussed above)

[Bolverk]

Might sound weird, but I wonder if the video is onto something

I haven't actually played any dating sims as far as I can remember, aside from vn's in general. But if you believe the statistics from the video and the concepts it spurs. The sims does actually promote the basic concepts of dating. But not in that you should try to imitate how dating sims work. But rather understanding the concepts that dating sims have and the similarities they have in real life. The nuances of language, communication and relations to others. Knowing the difference between saying "how's it going" compared to "hello". "Do you like the taste of beer?" means more than just liking beer. Rather, saying yes to it. Would mean yes I'd like to drink with you as well. These should be might obvious for any functioning human being. But I am afraid for some people they aren't.

That sims have a value is based on that those statistics in the video are actually legit/good.. Their reliability aside. Actually talking to people is the only way to will actually become good at it. Also trying to randomly use dating advice without knowing how your actions work. Frankly is retarded.

[EdwardWongHPTIV]

While certainly some of mechanics of dating sims apply in principle, the actual methods used are over simplified or over the top. Remembering details about what you talked about on your dates is certainly important to most women but it's more of a minimum requirement imo. Sadly a nebulous concept like chemistry is probably the most important and then just having experience dating and/or talking to the opposite sex. I'm not talking about the over the top shame/embarrassment routine in Japanese games. I just mean knowing how to avoid potential land mines during conversation.

Incidentally getting involved with someone married is often a quick path to the goal. The forbidden nature tends to amplify the lust factor, but... drama.. complications.. and probably not the first choice with the average moral compass. But never say never. These things happen. Live and learn.

But getting back on topic I'd say 99% of VNs I've read have completely unrealistic portrayals of love. At least when it comes to initial chemistry. At least VNs don't suffer as much from "will they or won't they" as manga tend to do.

[Flutterz]

16 minutes ago, Bolverk said:

"Do you like the taste of beer?" means more than just liking beer. Rather, saying yes to it. Would mean yes I'd like to drink with you as well.

I'd still say "no" because beer tastes like shit

[Suzu Fanatic]

7 minutes ago, Flutterz said:

I'd still say "no" because beer tastes like shit

Like coffee, it depends how it's brewed But that's going off-topic, unless we want to compare the taste of beverages to peoples personalities.

[Okarin]

There are many tastes for beers, even cherry-flavoured. It's Belgian, and it's good.

[Bolverk]

 

1 hour ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

While certainly some of mechanics of dating sims apply in principle, the actual methods used are over simplified or over the top. Remembering details about what you talked about on your dates is certainly important to most women but it's more of a minimum requirement imo. Sadly a nebulous concept like chemistry is probably the most important and then just having experience dating and/or talking to the opposite sex. I'm not talking about the over the top shame/embarrassment routine in Japanese games. I just mean knowing how to avoid potential land mines during conversation.

Incidentally getting involved with someone married is often a quick path to the goal. The forbidden nature tends to amplify the lust factor, but... drama.. complications.. and probably not the first choice with the average moral compass. But never say never. These things happen. Live and learn.

But getting back on topic I'd say 99% of VNs I've read have completely unrealistic portrayals of love. At least when it comes to initial chemistry. At least VNs don't suffer as much from "will they or won't they" as manga tend to do.

I feel visual novels are usually too nonsensical to provide any realistic portrayal of love. I might end up loving the characters. But I can't actually think of the story and the love development as realistic. To be honest. I think Visual novels are even worse to at reflecting real life than dating sims are. Even the thought of it is so far out there. I find it hard to point where it stands.

Although I think the concepts of dating sims are overly simplified as well. I do have a certain lack of faith that some people might understand this. For an average sociable guy I guess it won't be much of help. But a person who has never understood social settings. Or perhaps never really had much normal social contact with people. Perhaps It would be in some sense worthwhile? If actually dating sims makes people understand some social concepts, I can't say they are useless. Hopefully the people playing will have some hobbies or interests to talk with other people as well. Rather than just talking about dating sims, or the weather. 

52 minutes ago, Flutterz said:

I'd still say "no" because beer tastes like shit

Alright. Then I'd just say. "Then I'll give you Flutterz a glass of cognac." And you will be like:

Spoiler

 

Bolverk-San!

 

[Valmore]

6 hours ago, Down said:

Pro tip: I don't think calling girls with racist slurs works very well irl.

Yeah, don't walk up to an Asian female and ask to learn karate unless you know for a fact she actually teaches karate. Hunipop shouldn't be taken seriously, ever. In the very loosest sense, yes, showing genuine interest in what a girl likes and facts about her will usually help you, there are plenty of things not to do... like asking what size bra the girl wears is a pretty bad idea, both in that it's creepy and it may make her self-conscious about her tits' size, which is a surefire way to kill romance. You don't need to know her bra size until you've become engaged in a very intimate relationship and you're comfortable actually buying lingerie for her... and even then it's risky because women all prefer different lingerie, which of course also comes in different sizes. What's a B in one company may actually fit a C better, etc. Your best bet? Just enjoy them and leave all things size to her.

Oh, and just because someone is of a certain racial or national descent does not mean they completely identify with it and want themed-based gifts surrounding it. Let's face it, living in America, especially if you're born here, there's a good chance you don't really identify that strongly with a culture that only exists from your (possibly distant) past.

This video did make me wonder what that game was around point number three, with the weird yandere-like check who wants to kill you. Too bad I have no clue what that game is,

[EdwardWongHPTIV]

12 minutes ago, Bolverk said:

 

I feel visual novels are usually too nonsensical to provide any realistic portrayal of love. I might end up loving the characters. But I can't actually think of the story and the love development as realistic. To be honest. I think Visual novels are even worse to at reflecting real life than dating sims are. Even the thought of it is so far out there. I find it hard to point where it stands.

Although I think the concepts of dating sims are overly simplified as well. I do have a certain lack of faith that some people might understand this. For an average sociable guy I guess it won't be much of help. But a person who has never understood social settings. Or perhaps never really had much normal social contact with people. Perhaps It would be in some sense worthwhile? If actually dating sims makes people understand some social concepts, I can't say they are useless. Hopefully the people playing will have some hobbies or interests to talk with other people as well. Rather than just talking about dating sims, or the weather. 

Alright. Then I'd just say. "Then I'll give you Flutterz a glass of cognac." And you will be like:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Bolverk-San!

 

 

There are exceptions to every rule, no doubt, but I agree with you. That was what I was implying. At least dating sims make you work towards a pairing in a semi-realistic fashion. A VN protag is basically the most interesting man in the world no matter how average he most likely is.

Using a dating sim as a teaching device without some guidance and/or common sense is a slippery slope. Dialog in a sim is not a very good example. It might cover the basics of small talk with varying success but there is one critical flaw. The topics are predefined and the girls largely dictate the flow of the conversation. I think a lot of women would find a guy that can't hold a candle to their ability to be conversation starters... ultimately boring. Of course that's not always the case. As far as social norms? Hard to say Japanese game would be helpful to a western audience in that regard. For example, a goodnight kiss at the end of a enjoyable first date would probably not happen in a Japanese game. But in the west a girl might begin to think the guy lacks interest if he doesn't display a desire to kiss, hold hands, etc.