john 'mr. customer' smith Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 https://vndb.org/g2223?fil=tag_inc-2223.tagspoil-0;m=0;o=d;s=rating Out of the thousands and thousands of entries on vndb, only a small handful have this tag. There's higurashi, fault milestone, phenomeno, some OELVNs and that's it. Either the tag system is inaccurate, Or, just possibly, is it so ingrained in our concept of what a visual novel is that everything has to have romance in it? If that's the case, then that just blows my mind. Am i applying the word romance too narrowly? Could titles like narcissu and planetarian be considered romance? I'm so confused right now Vorathiel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Well the tag was only created 8 months ago so it is probably missing from some titles But mostly all the VNs are focused on romance because #endlessmoeges ヤミハナ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Well the tags are added by users, and so not all of the appropriate tags will be added to each title. People often remove tags that are incorrect, but they dont always ADD additional tags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john 'mr. customer' smith Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Then, can you name any more? I think the question still kinda stands, because the tag will have been added to every noteworthy visual novel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 6 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said: Then, can you name any more? I think the question still kinda stands, because the tag will have been added to every noteworthy visual novel I guess Planetarian doesnt really have any romance, and thats quite the noteworthy title. I suppose you can find romance in that game if you really want it, but in my opinion there is none. Maybe thats the problem; that some people feel there is always some form of romantic undertone in a game, and they hesitate to add the tag. Dunno. Bottom line is though, that VNDB tags aren't the most reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalor Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Umm, a lot of my favorite VNs aren't focused on romance (at least arguably). Narcissu, Swan Song, Sayooshi, Saya no Uta (debatable) are all VNs I would add to that tag. And that is just off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I actually think "romance" is an essential part of Higurashi. And I don't think it's strange that nearly every Visual Novel has some romance in it. After all, they are stories about humans and humans seldom work without emotions like affection for each other. kingdomcome, john 'mr. customer' smith, XReaper and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john 'mr. customer' smith Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 28 minutes ago, Tyrosyn said: And I don't think it's strange that nearly every Visual Novel has some romance in it. After all, they are stories about humans and humans seldom work without emotions like affection for each other. Well put. That basically answers the gist of my question 28 minutes ago, Zalor said: Umm, a lot of my favorite VNs aren't focused on romance (at least arguably). Narcissu, Swan Song, Sayooshi, Saya no Uta (debatable) are all VNs I would add to that tag. And that is just off the top of my head. It doesn't mean focused though, It means containing some element or form of romance. I would probably call narcissu and saya no uta romance, just not traditional romance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalor Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 14 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said: It doesn't mean focused though, It means containing some element or form of romance. I would probably call narcissu and saya no uta romance, just not traditional romance Narcissu certainly not (read my article on it, as Narcissu is not about romance at all. Btw, my article is linked in my signature). But admittedly Saya no uta, and Swan Song do have some romantic elements. So that may disqualify them. Sayooshi on the other hand has sex, but not really romance. So I standby that Narcissu and Sayooshi should have this tag included. Deep Blue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Virtue's Last Reward do not have any romance iirc. Hotel Dusk do not have romance. Corpse Party is not really centered on romance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 @Zalor You have a very strange perception of romance if you really think that the inclusion of the romance tag in Saya no Uta, which is at the core nothing but a true love story, is debatable. ^^'' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john 'mr. customer' smith Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 8 minutes ago, Zalor said: Narcissu certainly not (read my article on it, as Narcissu is not about romance at all. Btw, my article is linked in my signature). But admittedly Saya no uta, and Swan Song do have some romantic elements. So that may disqualify them. Sayooshi on the other hand has sex, but not really romance. So I standby that Narcissu and Sayooshi should have this tag included. I suppose you're right, I just added the tags, inviting everyone to vote on them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valmore Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Steam's tags are always the best and most reliable ways to tell what a game is. If only VNDB's were as reliable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john 'mr. customer' smith Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, Valmore said: Steam's tags are always the best and most reliable ways to tell what a game is. If only VNDB's were as reliable... you sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valmore Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe. No, that was sarcasm. Steam tags are likely worse than VNDB. kingdomcome 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funyarinpa Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 There's likely much more. Remember11 for example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalor Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Tyrosyn said: @Zalor You have a very strange perception of romance if you really think that the inclusion of the romance tag in Saya no Uta, which is at the core nothing but a true love story, is debatable. ^^'' Sorry, allow me to elaborate. What I meant, was that while love is an important part of the story. In my view, the story is about so much more than just love/romance. I wouldn't want to confine Saya no Uta as "mostly just a love story". Which is what I meant by debatable. Even more specifically what I meant, is that I would still recommend it to people even if they were not big on romance stories. But what you said is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Zalor said: Saya no Uta (debatable) are all VNs I would add to that tag. Saya no Uta at its core is a love story. It's more focused on romance than your typical moege with a large common route and 1 route per heroine. Yuno-Gasai 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Indeed, I second that. Saya no Uta is horror love story, love is the core and love is the drive of the story. I would even say nothing would exist in it without love. Yuno-Gasai 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalor Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 56 minutes ago, sanahtlig said: Saya no Uta at its core is a love story. It's more focused on romance than your typical moege with a large common route and 1 route per heroine. Yeah, I elaborated on what I meant by "debatable" in my post two above yours. I do admit at its core it is a love story. What I meant though, is that I think solely defining it as a love story ignores the other themes Saya no uta addressed. It isn't just a love story being my point. But rather a love story that tackles other themes and issues as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I think this is a fairly apt demonstration why tags used in this manner is fairly useless to the consumer xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdomcome Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 VNDB is missing a lot of tags, often I'm looking for romance but find it's missing the tag. Only to find out some time after it did have romance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_kinomoto Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 It may be worth defining some important terms for the sake of clarity. Definitions used are my own, borrowing heavily from the idea that there exists different types of love. Affection: a feeling of gentle, tender regard towards another human being. Not necessarily sexual or romantic in nature. Also known in some circles as "platonic love". Romance: the mood created when something happens that deepens bonds between two human beings. There is a direct implication that the behaviour would lead to the two becoming lovers. Sexual Love, aka eroticism: broadly speaking, sexual feelings towards another human being: i.e., the I-want-you-in-bed-with-me kind. The kind of love that "nukige" try to inspire in its players. Needless to say, while there may be distinctions between these different forms of love in theory, people who experience them very often get them confused together. I think trying to make these distinctions, if indeed they do exist, is what makes OP's question so fascinating for me. Wikipedia describes visual novels as games that "focus on the appeal of the female main characters": and I think this statement is strikingly accurate. I think VNs are specifically engineered to inspire feelings for their characters. And I think its worth asking: how much of this actually comes from "romantic love"? Affection is definitely a large part of it - but that would be an expected reaction towards anything that manages to get you so emotionally invested. You can't spend time with someone and then end up NOT feeling something for him/her. Of course, those feelings might be purely platonic, but you will inevitably have memories of the time in that person's presence, and these memories will inevitably hold emotions. I think this is true not just in the case of finishing a VN or game (especially the long ones), but also in real life. My personal view is that romantic love in VNs can in many instances be superfluous, and if emphasized too much, a detractor to the original story. The most prominent example is the VN that tries to force in a route with every_single_female_character, regardless of whether or not it is warranted or not. My second bugbear is when the possibility of romantic development for any other character outside of the MC is neglected: which to me just feels a little unrealistic - not to mention ridiculously unfair. One of my favourite examples of both of these is Clannad (poor Sunohara!). On the other hand, the Angel Beats anime was remarkable for subverting both these tropes; though of course in the VN remake they were trying to to return to them all over again... I'm not even sure why this is such an annoyance for me. It's more likely just a simple question of taste, though a part of me feels that a VN that completely ignores the sexual elements to deliver a tale of two comrades-in-arms has the potential to deliver a much more profound message, that goes beyond the idea that VNs are datesims and nothing more! Unfortunately, I still have't found that VN yet... As an interesting but relevant aside, it would be worth examining where exactly Moe sits on the spectrum of love. Zalor, john 'mr. customer' smith and Darklord Rooke 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Rooke said: I think this is a fairly apt demonstration why tags used in this manner is fairly useless to the consumer xD I think g2181 is pretty useful and self-explanatory. Too bad it's underutilized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 @harry_kinomotoA very interesting post :3 A couple of points, however: 15 minutes ago, harry_kinomoto said: Wikipedia describes visual novels as games that "focus on the appeal of the female main characters": It doesn't. And if it did it would be so very, very wrong. Bishoujo games is described similar to that on Wiki, but that's a different class of games entirely. As an aside, while I'm talking about the wiki entry for VNs, wiki also comments on Japan differentiating between NVL (novel games) and ADV (adventure games) but this distinction not appearing in the West, and whether this is true in Japan I can't say but they failed to include the reason why. Traditionally adventure games have puzzles, a narrative, and exploration, most VNs in an ADV format don't fit this criteria and thus can't be described as adventure games over here. A bit off topic, sorry 16 minutes ago, harry_kinomoto said: I think VNs are specifically engineered to inspire feelings for their characters. All stories are supposed to inspire feelings for their characters, after all at their heart stories are about people. If you don't inspire feelings for your characters in any medium, you're often regarded as having failed. I think VNs have advantages, and disadvantages in this regard, like most mediums do. 17 minutes ago, sanahtlig said: I think g2181 is pretty useful and self-explanatory. Too bad it's underutilized. It's almost as though you're implying something ... xD harry_kinomoto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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