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29 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Obviously uncooperative types aside, I continue to think it's a really shitty method to stop people from being arses. 

Temp bans aren't supposed to stop people being arses, it's to tell them they've 'overstepped the line in a significant way' and that 'if they can't follow the rules, they're not welcome on the site'. It's to 'remove' the 'arse element' from the community, not 'change' the 'arse element' into something which smells like roses. If you're using it as a tool to 'stop people acting like an arse', you're using it mistakenly. It's a tool which says 'respect the rules or you're no longer welcome on the site.' Think of it as a 'swift kick in the nuts', it's not supposed to make them nice or stop them from being an arse, it punishes and makes you feel good ...

34 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

I moderate the way I do precisely because I'm dealing with actual human beings. 

Ha! Everybody knows that most ‘users’ on the internet are nothing but pieces of computer code, created by a devious mind to impersonate the worst aspects of human behaviour, and unleashed on the web for unknown, nefarious purposes. Almost like a virus. And you wouldn't be humane to a virus, would you? That'd just be silly ...

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3 hours ago, Rooke said:

Temp bans aren't supposed to stop people being arses, it's to tell them they've 'overstepped the line in a significant way' and that 'if they can't follow the rules, they're not welcome on the site'. It's to 'remove' the 'arse element' from the community, not 'change' the 'arse element' into something which smells like roses. If you're using it as a tool to 'stop people acting like an arse', you're using it mistakenly. It's a tool which says 'respect the rules or you're no longer welcome on the site.' Think of it as a 'swift kick in the nuts', it's not supposed to make them nice or stop them from being an arse, it punishes and makes you feel good ...

The tool itself is a way to stop people from accessing the site for a certain amount of time. The way it's used is up for the user. 

Your post makes sense. It's why I don't criticize Nay's way of modding - I think it's perfectly valid. 

Still, if possible, I'd like people to stop being arses over saying they're not welcome. It's not like I never ban anyone. It's just that I prefer seeing if we can work things out before doing that... And I don't really think that's wrong. One of the advantages of being a small community is that we can pay attention to all the members, and make judgments afer familiarizing ourselves with the situations that led to the trouble-making and the nuance in the whole issue - and I think it'd be a waste to throw that privilege away. Things aren't black and white, and a kick in the nuts isn't always the right way to go about rule-breaking. 

Of course, it also depends on what the member is doing. Certain transgressions would just get someone banned, yes. 

Ugh. I suck at writing text-walls. Hopefully this managed to explain what I think about moderation better. If it didn't, rip me :komari: 

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  • 2 months later...

I was banned from the chatroom today without any reason by Kurisu-chan. But the problem by the way is that the bias of this specific moderator against me are so strong that he already tried to make unjustified decisions on the past. But now it's just getting very bad.

Let me remember you, people can do mistakes, if you condemn them for life because of one tiny mistake they have done and get punished for, then you are not acting fairly at all. You are acting not only unfairly because for a same behaviour one person is going to be punished while the other will not, but also dishonestly because your decisions don't even have valid reasons.This is a very narrow minded way of considering others and i find it very damaging to fuwanovel image in general.

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The most ankward thing is to get accused of trolling for no reasons because the moderator in question just thinks you are, so the claims becomes the proof itself. I was disappointed to see how people are simple minded and not able to let their personnal bias not interfere with their own judgement. Being a moderator just makes it worse.

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You also created several accounts (resulting in an IP ban). Your main account is no longer banned on the forum, but you keep trying to evade your chat ban instead of messaging some other mod about this issue to see if it can be fixed (it's in the forum rules, but in case you didn't know, evading bans will only result in longer bans). As far as I know, you're not showing proof you're not trolling, and all I heard from the chat side is that you are, so even if you make a big speech here, there's not much concrete proof in your words as far as I can tell. But please do inform us of how/when you got banned so we can actually acess if @Kurisu-Chanwas in the wrong here.

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i will be honest, yes i made 'trolling' on the forum with this main account on specific topics. The point of views i expressed on the closed topics were false. And yes i was already punished for this behaviour and suspended from the forums. Aei was an alternative account i created with which i was entering the chatroom.

However, what i wasn't doing is 'trolling hard on the chat' with this alternative nickname...i just acted like a regular user here until the decision. Kurisu had strong bias against me from the start and banned me without a valid reason. Basically on chat i was doing things other users  were doing, the only problem is that because it was me then it suddenly became problematic. I did a mistake on the forum i got a punishment for that, yet i still get punished on the chatroom whereas i'm not doing something wrong. This is what is unfair and that i find disgusting.

The problem with the decision is that it was motivated by bias against myself and not actual facts= i did false statements on the forum, i said that i was trolling to one admin then i got banned, it's unfair that when i am not trolling and just taking part to not so meaningless conversations or not on the chatroom, i do things similar that other users and yet because it's me it becomes a problem...also i didn't try to resolve the issue because i felt my punishment was deserved.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Eai said:

i will be honest, yes i made 'trolling' on the forum with this main account on specific topics. The point of views i expressed about me disliking so much h scenes on the closed topics were false (i wouldn't took part on the H topic if i was so strongly against H content). The only thing which was true was my point of view that this topic seems to make people insecure to me. And yes i was already punished for this behaviour and suspended from the forums. Aei was an alternative account i created with which i was entering the chatroom.

However, what i wasn't doing is 'trolling hard on the chat' with this alternative nickname...i just acted like a regular user here until the decision. Kurisu had strong bias against me from the start and banned me without a valid reason. I had some argument with a specific user several times but i never made up things or made false statements on purpose... basically on chat i was doing things other users  were doing, the only problem is that because it was me then it suddenly became problematic. I did a mistake on the forum i got a punishment for that, yet i still get punished on the chatroom whereas i'm not doing something wrong. This is what is unfair and that i find disgusting.

The problem with the decision is that it was motivated by bias against myself and not actual facts= i did false statements on the forum, i said that i was trolling to one admin then i got banned, it's unfair that when i am not trolling and just taking part to not so meaningless conversations or not on the chatroom, i do things similar that other users and yet because it's me it becomes a problem...

You didn't troll in chat, you say? Fascinating...

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It was my first time with THIS account and not the one i was banned after which is Aei. When i say i didn't troll i speak about my alternative account and not my principal one. I didn't troll in chat because i was taking part to the chat as Aei, not Eai.

And the episode from the screen capture was prior my troll on the forum. You know that? If i wouldn't have said to Kaguya that i was trolling in the topics i wouldn't have been banned. But yet i wanted to say it because i felt bad because the opinions expressed on the topic were completely false on my part.

 

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You're wasting my time and my air, i'll be very clear with you, as long as you speak that way, and you're still disrespectful against me, i'm not going to explain you in detail why you deserved a ban, LONG ago, but i didn't do it because i expected you to be more than a troll.

 

But hey, you insulted me, and that's not a problem at all, i'm pretty calm, all i wait from you is simple : rephrase yourself, and talk normally to me, then, ask me calmly and respectfully why did i ban you, and then, i'll answer you with all the respect you'll deserve then. 

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First, Kurisu-Chan i have nothing against you. I apologize for my earlier behaviour, it was rude and unneeded. But i reacted this way because the decision you made was unfair. I was allowed to stay on chatroom with my alternative account because exactly i wasn't trolling. When i say about you being biased against me, it's something pretty obvious, because many times you were interpretating my words like i was intending to troll whereas i was just talking as others chat users do. I also had some interesting discussion with you present on the chatroom (do you remember i took part to a conversation related to guns where i agreed with you?). I didn't made up false statements, or picked up random fights just for the sake of it in the chatroom. I know i will look ridiculous for saying that but i wanted to act normally and redeem myself from what i had done with this account on forum.

I'm not disrespectfull against you, i am just saying what i think about it: it was pretty unfair and motivated by your bias against me.

Then if there was a valid motivation, i would appreciate if you could explain it.

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Mh...well, you seem to have found your calm, that's better, at least, now i can respectfully answer you.

Now, i'll explain to you, why i decided to apply a ban sentence to ALL your accounts, there's a reason, all these accounts are you, so, whatever you do with Eai, i'll judge Aei like he is Eai.

Now that is explained, i'll explain to you why Eai and Aei, both deserves to be banned, and i hope you'll reflect on your actions.

We have many, many reasons, i'll try to bring 3 examples that, in my opinion, are representative.

Example number 1 : You and frogstat...i'm not saying that frogstat is a model member, but i don't think he deserved being called a filthy weeaboo, and the way you spoke to him, it wasn't a joke, it was a deliberate attempt at bullying him, and not only that...you don't know him, you don't have to be that harsh with him, if Frogy was your friend, or you did know him for a good amount of time, he would've taken that as a joke, and not as an offense against him, and fuwachat policy is clear : as long as the person enjoy it, you can make fun of him, but if he says no, it's NO.

Example 2 : Your countless affairs with Velo, not only did you pick up fights with him more than once, but you even got as far as calling him names, even discussing with him in private, and using mean words, in an offensive tone, the chat is a friendly place, not a boxing ring.

Example 3 : With me, not only did you not care about rules in place, but you really thought insulting me in turkish would work out? you really thought there we no turkish speaking guy out there? I really didn't understand what you wanted to achieve by that, but clearely, it was total lack of respect and tact.

 

Now, i just hope you understand, i didn't ban you for ONE reason, i did ban you for your attitude, your behaviour, and many mistakes you made during your time on the chat, i wanted to give you many chances, i did told you to stop acting like that, but i didn't expect you to act like that in my back.

I'll finish by this, a ban is not definitive, i'm not biased toward you, i'm very upset about how you reacted after you ban, but that's all, a ban is not definitive.

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(Long post incoming)



Thank you for your answer. But the points you made up are exactly why i say it's unfair. I will explain you why. It will give me the occasion to express myself about them.



For starters, i say you are biased because many times you are not taking in account exactly what happened or how things actually took place, For several reasons:



1- You were not always present when some of the points you quote happened



2-Reports you had about what happened came from one person only (Frogstat or Velo) with me not providing my version



3- You consider my actions whereas some people on the chat just acted in a very similar way. Also you have to consider there were time i was NOT enjoying what others where saying to me. And i have seen many times people having a rude behavior against me or others. But your bias are making judging things objectively a lot difficult because you had already the image of me being a troll before even knowing me. There's no need to deny it.



I dislike to do that but since it was done i would have to give example in detail from a specific episode which took places 2 or 3 days ago: there was when a newcomer who came up into the chan and asked if people knew about where downloading a game (he made a topic in the forum as well): sure fuwanovel is not specifically the place to ask for these things, but i still remember very well Velo was here and that he said to him to "go away" (exact words).



Which was rude. There were other way to say that he was not looking at the right place. The newcomer just leaved the room after that. and  you weren't on chatroom to know this happened.



Now i will explain things in detail concerning the three examples you took. I don't like the way things are turning but guess it can't be helped.







Quote






Example number 1 : You and frogstat...i'm not saying that frogstat is a model member, but i don't think he deserved being called a filthy weeaboo, and the way you spoke to him, it wasn't a joke, it was a deliberate attempt at bullying him, and not only that...you don't know him, you don't have to be that harsh with him, if Frogy was your friend, or you did know him for a good amount of time, he would've taken that as a joke, and not as an offense against him, and fuwachat policy is clear : as long as the person enjoy it, you can make fun of him, but if he says no, it's NO.









The starting of this was actually frogstat saying to me in japanese "dame da koitsu". The way it came out was clearly not a joke. I say back what you just said: he doesn't knows me. Sure there are some members on fuwanovel who can actually read japanese but they are still few. So there would have be a chance of me not knowing what he said. But unfortunately since i speak Japanese i understood what he meant, which is very far from being nice. I didn't made derogatory comments about him before, he litterally throwed this at me.



Then i responded in the same unrespectfull tone back in japanese. I suggested him to stop using japanese because even if you speak it, there is no point to show it off on an english chat room. He insisted about it that's why i said at some point "stop acting like a weaboo" (those were my exact words). I didn't call him a "filthy weeaboo", i just said he was acting like a weaboo. Because he was rude with me in the first place. It's not the same thing. And several times he made bad comments about me just like saying me to speak "like an human" and such. But i guess your perspective about this and others are linked to the fact you think i am a troll given my past. It would have been different with another person.








Quote






Example 2 : Your countless affairs with Velo, not only did you pick up fights with him more than once, but you even got as far as calling him names, even discussing with him in private, and using mean words, in an offensive tone, the chat is a friendly place, not a boxing ring.











Seriously, i'm staying calm but you don't know how biased you are with your last statement. Basically, the 'countless affair' you are talking about was me saying something and velo being argumentative about it. And it's funny that you talk about it because i don't perceive it being done in a nice way, but rather like you said above in a 'mean' and condescending way. And he had been like this with other users as well which just ignore him for that. (I know you ignore him too most of the times because you admitted it). If Velo was not trying to turns things into an arguing war, then things would be much cooler. And i repeat it, but i am not the only one who probably has this opinion. Yes i would like the chatroom to be a friendly place, but you yourself know that velo there is another matter . You know that he likes to argue for nothing, for 'fun', nitpicking about anything about some users, and making arguments just for the sake of making arguments. And that is a fact he himself admitted. You can't deny that because i know what you think about him.



Moreover, in the yesterday conversation, i just wanted to STOP the pseudo debate because it would lead nowhere, the problem is that velo is very serious and obsessed about debating. and that's why i made a unrelated shit post statement about 'primitive'. You cannot say in all honesly that this word is an insult, given what the word is, it was a tiny poke related to the fact he has a dinosaur as an avatar, and nickname, made to 'stop' this useless debate. But you know that. Either, Velo called me names in japanese at some point, that i was not even human or below human, that he would have more interest to speak to more intelligent people and other 'nice' words. Of course i didn't screen capture them, but if you have access to the log and actually check all the conversation, you will see that. Now if you say chat is a friendly place, then it's not normal some users launching arguments and such and keeping going to use them like velo are perfectly fine whereas i get reproachs from you. I know the answer is the same; you have strong bias against myself.



So sorry Kurisu to say it to you, but what you mention in the middle part of the quote is not true. I never called him names in an insulting tone (expect if on more time you seriously consider primitive to be offensive, which is a a bit exagerrated comparatively to the way he was making up arguments and some words he said to me). Up to yesterday i never even made one comment about velo himself, but just criticized his opinions and arguments. What you say about chat is false too: the only time i had private chat with him was with my principal account and not the Aei one i was using now. Basically the ONLY time i had a private chat with velo was from the screen capture he provided, which was more than 1 month ago.








Quote






Example 3 : With me, not only did you not care about rules in place, but you really thought insulting me in turkish would work out? you really thought there we no turkish speaking guy out there? I really didn't understand what you wanted to achieve by that, but clearely, it was total lack of respect and tact.









Like i said, this took place after the decision and i reacted like this because i was disgusted by it because it's unfair. But i was rude and acting like an idiot there, and i am sorry about what happened. It was completely unneeded. I didn't want to achieve anything i was angry. And tbh Turkish is not even my native language. I used online reference and google translator for it. I was angry and acted stupidly, that's pretty much it.



As such, the three examples are illustrating the core of the problem and the unfairness of the decision.








Quote






 



'Now, i just hope you understand, i didn't ban you for ONE reason, i did ban you for your attitude, your behaviour, and many mistakes you made during your time on the chat, i wanted to give you many chances, i did told you to stop acting like that, but i didn't expect you to act like that in my back.



I'll finish by this, a ban is not definitive, i'm not biased toward you, i'm very upset about how you reacted after you ban, but that's all, a ban is not definitive."



 









I hope you understand better how i feel with me explaining you things from my perspective. I know it will sound strange and some will probably say "come one he is just saying bullshit" but i actually dislike arguing and things like that but when things like that happen if one of the party in question is not willing to stop, it's pretty hard to not continue. That's why most of the time i was in the chan i talked lighty about random things in a jokingly way. I know i had a bad behaviour with my trolling on the forum, when i made false arguments with a point of view with is not mine, but it was one mistake, and i didn't want to act like this anymore after getting ban one time by kaguya from the forum.



Finally, just for the record, my very first participation to the forum was a constructive one: i created a topic asking about behind scenes work regarding cgs in western releases. A Mangagamer member himself posted in the topic to answer to the question, which was about something many users didn't know. Far from being a troll, it was from several months ago, you can check my profile if you don't remember about it; and the reason i mention it is, that it shows that i didn't have bad intentions when joining fuwanovel originally. I did mistakes later and was punished for them, but i didn't in the chatroom with my other account Aei. Your decision and the way you considered me was already biased from there.



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Nice sob story there I guess, Eai.

But seriously, from your complain here I could only see that you tried too hard to make everything right in either this forum or chat. For frogstat, I didn't knew why he said you're hopeless there, but at least I knew it's his right to use Japanese in English chat room, like it or not. But if you dislike his insult to you, then I couldn't said about it here, and therefore I'll leave this matter to you. Oh, and from what I heard weaboo was what you call an insult to some people, and apparently frogstat was insulted by that.

For your second story, to me it sounds like you didn't involved in 'useless debate' in the first place. But apparently you sense of justice want to stop this, so you tried to stop the debate. Okay, even if I understand your reasoning, but if you didn't like the debate, you could actually just leave the chat room and ignore the debate. Beside, it's not like you knew the people who got insulted by velo personally anyway (Or if you knew, that I also understand why you did that to velo).

For last point, let's just said that you really dislike arguing, but from back at 2 locked thread and your post as Aei in Walkure Romanze, I couldn't see that from you. Back in nukige forum, if you really only jokingly said that in regard of nukige, personally you really didn't need to write many reply to the posts there that show you insisting that your point was true (To be honest, the argument there was like in circle, some user tried to show the fact, and you said it's not right). You also made a thread about people insecurities about sex in VN as the aftermath from first locked thread (Which made mod Kaguya hid 15 posts), and you also had debate with one user back at Walkure Romanze thread (Which actually blew you cover in regard that you dislike sex scene in VN). Okay, I didn't really need your defense in regard of those, but what I want to said is that if you dislike arguing, my suggestion here would be just stop your argument instead of keep trying to depend yourself (And if you said it's hard to stop arguing if one party not willing to stop, you just need to stop your arguing by yourself ie didn't need to reply to many posts since actually if you involving in arguing, you also the party in arguing).

As the last word, I entered Fuwanovel and had my first post here in regard of Soukoku no Arterial tips here. Okay, I understand your point that you want to contribute something to Fuwanovel here. Therefore, I would suggest you better just take it easy here instead of keep righting the wrong thing to you here. Sorry if you dislike my post here, but I really want to write about this since yesterday.

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I'm unsure whether this will be helpful or not but I'd like to give my perspective on temporary bans as I'm a moderator on a very busy forum with over 50x the traffic of this one and a hell of a lot more mods than here. In short, a lot of people aren't intrinsically trolls and they fuck up and get carried away without knowing they're doing so until they get a temporary ban. This is usually 2 out of 3 people that we hand out bans to. Those people come back and basically never infringe upon the forum rules ever again and tread much more carefully. The rest, however, are just trolls and there's a variable length of time between them getting their first temporary ban and their final permanent ban. Basically the rate at which they graduate from one place to the next depends on their intrinsic troll nature. Some troll as soon as they return while most are calm for a while before losing it and falling back into their old habits. In short, the temporary bans make a massive difference to the overall signal to noise ratio on the forum and are a much more obvious flag to the unwitting perpetrators that they've overstepped the mark. Whether the balance is different on this forum or not I cannot tell but no doubt the same rules apply to some degree or other.

Deleting/hiding posts tends to actually aggravate the latter group much faster and brings them to ban-worthy status quicker rather than teaching them they've overstepped the mark while the former group are less likely to elevate to ban status. Both bans and deletions are necessary evil components of maintaining the delicate balance between free(ish) speech and worthwhile contributions. One thing I am unsure of is whether members on this forum get notification if their posts are deleted/hidden/moved and the reasoning behind it. That often helps the member declare whether they're going to be a repeat offender or learn from their mistakes before needing a ban.

Note I'm not passing judgement about the details of this argument, moderation accuracy or anyone's behaviour in particular that was discussed in this thread but simply pointing out what we've observed on another forum.

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2 hours ago, ittaku said:

I'm unsure whether this will be helpful or not but I'd like to give my perspective on temporary bans as I'm a moderator on a very busy forum with over 50x the traffic of this one and a hell of a lot more mods than here. In short, a lot of people aren't intrinsically trolls and they fuck up and get carried away without knowing they're doing so until they get a temporary ban. This is usually 2 out of 3 people that we hand out bans to. Those people come back and basically never infringe upon the forum rules ever again and tread much more carefully. The rest, however, are just trolls and there's a variable length of time between them getting their first temporary ban and their final permanent ban. Basically the rate at which they graduate from one place to the next depends on their intrinsic troll nature. Some troll as soon as they return while most are calm for a while before losing it and falling back into their old habits. In short, the temporary bans make a massive difference to the overall signal to noise ratio on the forum and are a much more obvious flag to the unwitting perpetrators that they've overstepped the mark. Whether the balance is different on this forum or not I cannot tell but no doubt the same rules apply to some degree or other.

Deleting/hiding posts tends to actually aggravate the latter group much faster and brings them to ban-worthy status quicker rather than teaching them they've overstepped the mark while the former group are less likely to elevate to ban status. Both bans and deletions are necessary evil components of maintaining the delicate balance between free(ish) speech and worthwhile contributions. One thing I am unsure of is whether members on this forum get notification if their posts are deleted/hidden/moved and the reasoning behind it. That often helps the member declare whether they're going to be a repeat offender or learn from their mistakes before needing a ban.

Note I'm not passing judgement about the details of this argument, moderation accuracy or anyone's behaviour in particular that was discussed in this thread but simply pointing out what we've observed on another forum.

I've been banned twice 

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@Eai You haven't really explained why you even want to participate in a chat where everyone treats you like a troll.  Consider: is there even a single regular user that even wants you around?  And if not, why would you even want to participate?

As I see it, Fuwa forums and Fuwa chat serve different purposes.  Fuwa forums are a place for disseminating information and topical discussion.  Fuwa chat is for socializing and tends to be more tightly-knit.  Given these diverging purposes, I'm perfectly fine with Fuwa chat having a stricter moderation policy: if no one wants you there, and you give them any objective reason at all to boot you, you're gone.  Unfortunately, given your history you've more or less forfeited the right to equal treatment, and you'll always be viewed with suspicion.  You're going to have to live with the consequences of your actions.  You appear to be no longer welcome in chat, regardless of whether a moderator bans you or not.  I'd recommend cutting your losses and striving to avoid the same fate on your forum account.

Disclaimer: I hardly ever visit Fuwa chat or talk to anyone there, and I have no special knowledge of this situation.

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2 hours ago, sanahtlig said:

@Eai You haven't really explained why you even want to participate in a chat where everyone treats you like a troll.  Consider: is there even a single regular user that even wants you around?  And if not, why would you even want to participate?

As I see it, Fuwa forums and Fuwa chat serve different purposes.  Fuwa forums are a place for disseminating information and topical discussion.  Fuwa chat is for socializing and tends to be more tightly-knit.  Given these diverging purposes, I'm perfectly fine with Fuwa chat having a stricter moderation policy: if no one wants you there, and you give them any objective reason at all to boot you, you're gone.  Unfortunately, given your history you've more or less forfeited the right to equal treatment, and you'll always be viewed with suspicion.  You're going to have to live with the consequences of your actions.  You appear to be no longer welcome in chat, regardless of whether a moderator bans you or not.  I'd recommend cutting your losses and striving to avoid the same fate on your forum account.

Disclaimer: I hardly ever visit Fuwa chat or talk to anyone there, and I have no special knowledge of this situation.

What a shame, maybe that would help you to have a better opinion about the chat, you would then understand how farly wrong you are when you say that i'm strict. 

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42 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

What a shame, maybe that would help you to have a better opinion about the chat, you would then understand how farly wrong you are when you say that i'm strict. 

Snapping at third-party observers who support your decision probably isn't the best way to convince others of your impartiality and fair-mindedness.  If you handle your moderation role with such sarcasm and thinly-veiled passive aggression, I could easily see how spats like this would arise.

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