[Discussion] Everyone hates OELVNs?

[Black Sands Entertainment]

 

3 minutes ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

My gut feeling is that OELVNs generally promise too much, with too small of budget. You can't produce a game with varied sprites, many HQ CGs, voice acting, and good writing on a shoestring budget. I honestly don't know that the budgets in Japan are like but I'm sure it's more than the 10's of thousands.

Art is another factor. I really, really try not to judge OELVN art vs Japanese VNs but when they mimic the style, it almost universally looks like crap. I wish they would just go with their own style or excrete the blood, sweat, and tears to do proper backgrounds, sprites, and CGs.

English voice acting... ehh.. I have mixed feelings. Mainly because of anime dubs. I know, I know. We're talking about OELVNs. It's just that a lot of english voice acting is so ham fisted. The scripts don't help and sometimes they try to mimic anime/cartoon voices.... ewww. To be fair I haven't yet played an OELVN with voice acting so this is clearly my anime dub prejudice talking.

TL:DR More budget and do something original with the format (and please don't make my ears bleed).

All I know is you guys better help me out when I change the game. My project is expensive as fuck but there is no arguing the quality is on point.

lol

[CeruleanGamer]

As long as it's not filled with fanservice trash like Sakura series or the art isnt as horrifying as Dharker Studios/AJTilley and has great concept. I will play it. 

In fact, it doesnt need to have English origins at all... Everlasting Summer was made by the Russians and that VN delivered. 

[Diamon]

Personally, I'd just wish there was more of an investment from the community into the OELVN scene.
Expectations for them are just too high, and in return most people will ignore them, which is a bad thing for a medium that relies mostly on word of mouth. It just seems like there is this vicious circle :
OELVN are too amateurish => Projects get ignored => No feedback or support whatsoever => No recognition for the game => No sales (if the game is even released) => No funding and no direction as for how to make the next game => Next project stays amateurish (if there is even a next project)

An exaggerated, but somehow accurate comparison I've seen not too long ago about EVN development :

Quote

Red pill
- slice of life HS romance
- "save our club" premise
- big boob'd stereotyped bimbos with the character development of a toaster
- panned by reviewers
- Earn $70,000
- will be associated with your name forever like a bad after taste

Blue Pill
- that original and complex lore you've been working on since your chuunibyou days
- meaningful storylines connect by a common set of themes
- plot-driven characters uncompromised from pandering/marketing
- get heartfelt fan letters of how your VN changed their lives for the better
- Earn $3,000 a year before steam cut and taxes
 

A lot of people are waiting until they see a great OELVN to give them hope about the scene, but that's not how it works. The more we are ignoring the objectively less good projects, the more devs will decide to take the red pill and go for the money. Now is the moment to support developers who are still brave enough to take the blue pill, even if what they are producing is not up to japanese standards yet. It's basically an investment in the future of the EVN scene. I say support, but it doesn't have to be monetary support. Feedback, constructive criticism, message of encouragement on their threads, reviews and articles, spreading the word... 

[Black Sands Entertainment]

1 minute ago, Diamon said:

Personally, I'd just wish there was more of an investment from the community into the OELVN scene.
Expectations for them are just too high, and in return most people will ignore them, which is a bad thing for a medium that relies mostly on word of mouth. It just seems like there is this vicious circle :
OELVN are too amateurish => Projects get ignored => No feedback or support whatsoever => No recognition for the game => No sales => No funding and no direction as for how to make the next game => Next project stays amateurish.

An exaggerated, but somehow accurate comparison I've seen not too long ago about EVN development :

A lot of people are waiting until they see a great OELVN to give them hope about the scene, but that's not how it works. The more we are ignoring the objectively less good projects, the more devs will decide to take the red pill and go for the money. Now is the moment to support developers who are still brave enough to take the blue pill, even if what they are producing is not up to japanese standards yet. It's basically an investment in the future of the EVN scene. I say support, but it doesn't have to be monetary support. Feedback, constructive criticism, message of encouragement on their threads, reviews and articles, spreading the word... 

to be honest with you, its literally why I am marketing this as an interactive graphic novel to the black community. I need a bigger market and hopefully I can convert them to the dark side once they realize this is an actually widespread genre.

[CeruleanGamer]

What needs to stop is the school setting trope and all these garbage ass cliches that only works right in a Japanese VN but will never work in a western setting.

Example: No youre not supposed to go to love hotels or karaoke bars in a western setting VN. We dont do that shit over here....

Night clubs or going to a bar for drinks would be more "western appropriate" or actually going to your significant other's place instead of hotels or motels is more common here.

See? That shit isnt so hard to westernize... These OELVN developers just need to see the differences between our cultures and the Japanese if they want to "make it their own" and not look like copycat garbage VN.

[the_dive]

There are just too many high quality Japanese VNs to read for me to consider reading more OELVNs. Still haven't read Fate/Stay, Ever17, Steins;Gate,YU-NO etc etc. and by the time I finish reading all those, more top tier VNs like Himawari and Root Double will have been already translated and released. 

[sanahtlig]

All I expect from OELVNs is mature writing for adults, appealing anime-style or fantasy-style graphics, a high fantasy setting with swords and sorcery, engaging RPG combat, 1000-year-old goth lolis, and sex with said lolis--all voiced in Tolkien's elven language.  Is that too much to ask? 

[br4zil]

I actually like some of Winter Wolves games. Manly Planet Stronghold, Loren the Amazon Princess and Bionic Heart.

The storywriting is pretty solid.

I didint vote in any of the 3 options, since for the most part, it seems that OELVNs are usually very... very... poor in quality.

[CeruleanGamer]

32 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

All I expect from OELVNs is mature writing for adults, appealing anime-style or fantasy-style graphics, a high fantasy setting with swords and sorcery, engaging RPG combat, 1000-year-old goth lolis, and sex with said lolis--all voiced in Tolkien's elven language.  Is that too much to ask? 

Add George RR Martin plot twists and sudden deaths and I'm sold baby.

[solidbatman]

One reason we see so many imitation OELVNs is because most OELVN devs are fans of VNs like many of us here. They love it so much they want to make their own just like the superior Nippon race does. 

[Codesterz]

Hate is a strong word, but there are 0 OELVNs that I am interested in right now and I still have yet to read one. I've mentioned it time and time again. For me there are 3 things they need to get me interested and not just one of the 3 things it needs all 3. Voice acting, adult content, and an art style I like. The first 2 are self explanatory. The 3rd one means an art style that isn't to far off from one you would find in a Japanese VN. Having all 3 of these does not guarantee I will read an OELVN but it is the minimum requirements for me.

[Chronopolis]

1. The production value is miles short. Especially when it comes to graphical effects and OP, even doujin japanese games often have better OP's. I'm pretty sure this is a technical gap as well (there might be resources in japanese for OP making). If it were up to me, people would study how to make OP's in particular. Make them look less cheap.

In lieu of 1:

2. The story/characters/level of story-craft skill isn't great.

Generally for all-ages japanese doujins, the people playing those types of games very strongly graduate to stories which leave a lasting impression, while also having pretty enough (doesn't have to be amazing, just 'decent') art to be able to appreciate the characters visually from a moe perspective. (katawa shoujo falls into this category, actually :D)

In lieu of 2, I look for a:

3. An interesting concept or premise.

However, often it seems like the average OELVN writer doesn't have the nearly the skills to make a decent stab and utilize the premise/setting.

[Darklord Rooke]

I rarely read translated VNs anymore. Two reasons why:

1 - The quality of writing in English is usually bad (there's some obvious exceptions. Koestl, for example.)

2 - A lot of nothing (sometimes called meaningless padding) going on in scenes. And not much is worse than reading a lot of nothing that is written badly.

So I usually stick to sims. And when it comes to sims, Western works tend to be a bit superior than the ones from Japan.

[CeruleanGamer]

We all need more Huniepop-like games in our lives. No game has ever brightened my day like Huniepop ever did.

[Darklord Rooke]

2 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:

We all need more Huniepop-like games in our lives. No game has ever brightened my day like Huniepop ever did.

I was addicted to Huniepop for quite a while. The match-3 gameplay really did it for me. Not as enthused about their latest project, but will still keep an eye on it.

My favourite sim is Academagia. It doesn’t have the level of graphics top VN studios have, but the level of complexity offered in the gameplay is out of this world. No sim from Japan even comes close to what Academagia offers … which is spreadsheet loving, nerdy, choice and consequence, develop your character goodness.

[solidbatman]

14 minutes ago, Rooke said:

I was addicted to Huniepop for quite a while. The match-3 gameplay really did it for me. Not as enthused about their latest project, but will still keep an eye on it.

My favourite sim is Academagia. It doesn’t have the level of graphics top VN studios have, but the level of complexity offered in the gameplay is out of this world. No sim from Japan even comes close to what Academagia offers … which is spreadsheet loving, nerdy, choice and consequence, develop your character goodness.

Sounds like something from 30 years ago oh wait...

[VirginSmasher]

19 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:

We all need more Huniepop-like games in our lives. No game has ever brightened my day like Huniepop ever did.

"Brightened my day" meaning? 

[DarkZedge]

11 hours ago, Crayten said:

The problem is that your example is still better than 90% of the released OELVNs.

 

I must be one of the few who liked Harukoi Otome 

[VirginSmasher]

8 minutes ago, DarkZedge said:

I must be one of the few who liked Harukoi Otome 

It definitely looks like the case. Then again, VNDB ratings don't and have never mattered.

[DarkZedge]

4 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said:

It definitely looks like the case. Then again, VNDB ratings don't and have never mattered.

i know, it's just that it feels lonely 

[babiker]

Wow, do mine eyes deceive me? 

People praising an OELVN in numbers...?

Have we found the savior of VNs...?

Is this even Fuwa...?!

[Arcadeotic]

Honestly, I've thought that OELVNs have been going in the right direction for some time now, and good for them

[Zidan209]

After reading all the posts, i kinda forgot what i wanted to say... Well there are alot of poor works, and even some Japanese are poor. But NOT EVERY, that s for sure. They are mostly just too different because of the culture gap. But i m not weeaboo enough to say that i love Japanese VNs, in fact one OELVN is actually my favorite, and i haven t found any Japanese VN that i would enjoy more. If u got something to break my doubts that i won t find anything better, then don t wait, and tell me one )). Yeah i cannot even be a weeaboo cuz i don t speak Japanese

[Zenophilious]

35 minutes ago, babiker said:

Wow, do mine eyes deceive me? 

People praising an OELVN in numbers...?

Have we found the savior of VNs...?

Is this even Fuwa...?!

What do you think we are, r/visualnovels?  : P

3 minutes ago, Zidan209 said:

Yeah i cannot even be a weeaboo cuz i don t speak Japanese

あなたは日本語を話せますか。

[Danko]

18 hours ago, Black Sands Entertainment said:

this is not what people complain about. In fact, it is the exact opposite. An american visual novel made by an american who never been in japan makes a game set in tokyo. That is what pisses this community off.

 

17 hours ago, Soulless Watcher said:

If oelvns completely embraced point #2 I might actually enjoy them allot more. Allot of the times it seems oelvn creators are trying to copy the Japanese visual novel, instead of creating something completely new and using the visual novel format to tell their story. This kinda thing leads to overly cliche story and characters making it hard to read for seasoned visual novel readers who know all the cliches by heart. Granted I can be allot more forgiving to Japanese visual novels when they shove a cliche fest in my face as long as their are some decent h-scenes, something that oelvns usually lack.

Although I think the major issue with oelvns is that the vast majority are made by inexperienced content creators. They either have little idea on how to put a project together, they lack the funds, or they lack the know-how required to run a group. So this leads to a sloppily made project or the complete collapse of the project before it is even finished. 

Yes, I've seen this point of view often as well, and I believe it's true, to some extent. However, I've also noticed the opposite: if VN tries too hard to find it's own grounds and abandons all tropes and japanese roots, it has next to no chance to capture their audience. That's the point #2 I've showed in first post - being "too different" makes VNs fail.

Would you read a VN about gay black man trying to fight discrimination and find his happiness? Or russian noir detective about solving crimes in the rainy alleys of Saint-Petersburg? A VN based on comic books in cartoon style with JRPG fighting system? A romantic stat raising VN in style and era of Pride and Prejudice? (I know I would)

Or would you rather read japanese anime slice of life schoolgirl romance with 8 dateable girls? (I probably still would)

I know those are obviously bad examples and don't represent anything, but what do you think the general audience would prefer?

There were a few OELVNs that tried to firmly hold their ground, like the novels of MoeCube (Cinders, Solstice), but while they succeeded at it, I feel that's also the reason they didn't get much attention from VN fans.

So some people want OELVNs to be unique and different. But I feel that most just want more Japanese anime stuff.