[Discussion] Everyone hates OELVNs?

[Danko]

Hello, everyone.

As a recent addition to the VN community I'm starting to notice a few common trends in core VN readers. One of them is that original english language visual novels (OELVNs) are, simply put, not very popular. It's usually pretty subtle, not in a way like "Eewww, OELVN", but rather in a way that many OELVNs get forgotten or missed by the community completely. From what I've noticed, 90% of discussion is either discussion of original japanese titles or their translations, while indie west VNs often go way below the radar. I would like to go deeper to understand this trend.

I can see a few possible explainations behind this.

1) OELVNs are just pretty bad?
Needless to say, there are much fewer serious VN developers in the west compared to Japan, where the genre was born and continues to thrive to this day. Because of this, most OELVNs are produced by indies of various size and budget, many of them lacking the quality in both art, story and writing.
So far, there are probably no universally acclaimed OELVNs except Katawa Shoujo. Some other notable, but not too popular in the VN community examples include novels by Christine Love and perhaps Cinders by MoeCube. Oh, and the beautiful Hanako Games (LLtQ, Black Closet), if you consider them VNs. And that's about it.

2) OELVNs are just too different?
Just as there's a sizable cultural gap between the West and the East, OELVNs try to take a different approach in their stories, content and art.
Some of the things I think the western developers often do differently:
-Much less focus on erotic and controversial content, since west traditionally has very strong taboos on sexuality and mature themes
-Non-anime art style (sometimes)
-Less genre (anime\otaku\moe) tropes
-Political correctness and other modern western tropes
-More interactivity (more choices, mini-games, stat raising, genre-mixing)
Now, for some player those changes might be unwelcome and lower their interest in the game. Which of those, I wonder?

So what do you think?
-How often do you play OELVNs and which are your favourite ones?
-Why do you prefer the Japanese VNs?
-What about OELVNs makes you less interested in playing them?
-Or am I completely wrong and everyone loves them?

This thread is meant not to make some personal point, but as a place to discuss this possible issue. I very well know nobody (probably) really hates OELVNs, it's more about understanding better what the core VN fans think about non-japanese visual novels and what turns them on/off.

Believe me, there are lots of english VN developers right now eager to make something you will buy and enjoy.
Now, what advice would you give them as a Visual Novel lover?

 

[Dergonu]

Ugh among those 3 pretty specific choices I guess the first one is mostly correct.

Honestly, I have nothing against OELVNs. Not at all. If it´s good, I´ll gladly play it. I´ve backed several and have a few others I´m currently looking forward to. 

But yeah I guess, compared to many of the high budget Japanese VNs, OELVNs tend to be a little ... "Bad". I´ll gladly play the good ones, but there is definitely a bunch that are just cringeworthy. 

Again though, I have nothing against OELVNs in general. 

 

My favorite is Sunrider Academy. (I´m one of those weirdos who hasn´t actually played katawa shoujo, and probably never will  )

[VirginSmasher]

I'll stick with my eroge until I actually find an OELVN that is of the same quality as some of the VNs coming out of Japan.

[Deep Blue]

I think the problem with OELVNs is that they are too amateurish, I know that many people blame the "they just copy the japanese vns and setting" and yeah most of the time they do but how is it that one of most popular vns in the west if not the most popular is katawa shoujo a vn with a japanese tittle, the settings is in japan, with japanese characters, everything is "japanese" the thing is it has good writing and good music and this is where OELVNs fail to deliver (specially in the writing)

I've seen a lot of people trying to do vns and they don't even have the story ready but they are asking for money to do it... (I've seen kickstarter projects doing this!)

Again the problem is that in Japan vns are a business, good writers work for the industry of vns, is not just a simple hobby, there is money around it too here it is not...what would happen if a good writer wrote the plot for a vn and then you hire profesional artist to do the artwork and finally hire real musicians to make the music? Well that probably will never happen here but in japan it happens very often.

Again, it can happen that amateurs do a good vn but it's the exception to the rule.
 

 

[DarkZedge]

18 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said:

I'll stick with my eroge until I actually find an OELVN that is of the same quality as some of the VNs coming out of Japan.

This is true, OELVNS haven't caught up quality wise to eroges and i think that's the main reason people tend to look down on it..they're progressing but are not quite there yet.

Still I support the OELVN scene exactly because i believe it had potential and can be really good aswell. So more than "Hating" OELVNS i think it's more like people are waiting for them to get better and progress along the japanese ones and for that they'll need to think and take it more seriously and not just as mere hobby or project, they'll need to have great writers and artists, music comoposers and put all the work like japanese publishers do.

That will earn them money and revenue and with that base they'll be able to fund their next bigger and better one and so on and so forth but there has to be that first step into it for everything to work out. That's not to say though that there are not great OELVNS out there because there are but most are not and until something changes i don't think we'll be seein those many great OELVNS as often as we'd like to

[WinterfuryZX]

48 minutes ago, Deep Blue said:

I think the problem with OELVNs is that they are too amateurish, I know that many people blame the "they just copy the japanese vns and setting" and yeah most of the time they do but how is it that one of most popular vns in the west if not the most popular is katawa shoujo a vn with a japanese tittle, the settings is in japan, with japanese characters, everything is "japanese"

That's precisely why I'll never play it (and I'm planning to play Sinka in the near future)

[DavidA.]

This is an interesting topic to touch on. As an OELVN developer myself, you might consider my opinion biased, but personally, I always try to support other developers if I see them making an effort at delivering a quality product. With subjectivity aside, I think the biggest reason OELVNs aren't as well received as Japanese VNs is because they haven't been around as long. Most people are already accustomed to a certain style, and straying from that is understandably off-putting. Either the developers try too hard at mimicking Japanese VNs, or they're too different. As a result, it's hard for most readers to swallow them without grimacing.

There's simply no way to satisfy everyone, but it's always disheartening to see people discredit OELVNs despite the hard work and effort that's been put into them by the developers. (Some, at least)

What I consider a "quality" product is one that presents itself professionally. What I consider a "quality" piece of work is when it's able to convey a message across effectively. It's like any book you come across: most of them aren't from well known authors like Stephen King or J.R.R Tolkien, but there are those few that can be as equally as gripping—you were drawn in by its presentation (its cover/summary), and understood its message (its content). 

I'm positive OELVNs will gain traction someday and be as popular as Japanese VNs. Some people just have to understand that Stephen King doesn't always make quality stories just because he's Stephen King. And that the unknown author doesn't always make bad stories because he's an unknown author.

 

[TexasDice]

There is plenty of shit coming out of japan too, so I find the bigoted scorn people harbor towards OELVNs very amusing. 

[Arcadeotic]

I have nothing against OELVNs

Of course there are some bad ones like Sunrider, Sakura and AJTilley, and I felt like all OELVNs were rubbish, until Sepia Tears regained my faith in this market

The soon coming Black Sands and a few other OELVNs show promise, and I do hope that it gets better

I won't dismiss an OELVN before trying it ever again.

[Dergonu]

12 minutes ago, Arcadeotic said:

I have nothing against OELVNs

Of course there are some bad ones like Sunrider....

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

How dare you! It´s so awesome!  

Spoiler

 

[Arcadeotic]

Just now, Dergonu said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

How dare you! It´s so awesome!  

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Well yes, it has its moments, but th egrind was so god-awful that it made me drop it

[Dergonu]

1 minute ago, Arcadeotic said:

Well yes, it has its moments, but the grind was so god-awful that it made me drop it

Ah yeah. That part was a little meh. Also, the stupid ass luck system. (I had to play on waifu mode because constantly getting bad ends in like exam week and shit pissed me of  )

[Satsuki]

1. Rarely have good art.

2. Either have no voice, or have English voice.

Yeah, I will just stay away from OELVN.

[Ariurotl]

I don't mind them. Although I won't lie and say that I'm NOT suspicious about any OELVN at first... but that's just bad experience, what with the majority of OELVNs so far being rather shit.

The bottom line is, I'm not one of those people who treat anything that comes out of Japan as instantly superior to anything made in the West. You know, the people who also made Murakami Haruki out to be a genius of some kind just because he's Japanese, when he writes like a European and would eternally wallow in well-deserved mediocrity if he were, I dunno, French.

What was I talking about?

[XionsProphecy]

I don't really care, as long as it caters to my needs.

[Okarin]

Why not play a game that appeals to me? Who cares if it's OELVN or not? Pity is that most OELVN are just hurried trash. Oh, but that happens a lot with most videogames of any sort.

[TheFantasm]

The majority that I've come across have either one or all of these:

1. Poor fanfic-level writing

2. Generic school-setting

3. Bad art

So yeah, I've lost interest in most if not all OELVNs

[VirginSmasher]

4 hours ago, TexasDice said:

There is plenty of shit coming out of japan too, so I find the bigoted scorn people harbor towards OELVNs very amusing. 

There are definitely bad VNs coming from Japan as well. I never said they were exempt from having anything bad about them. It's just that the best VNs on the OELVN side haven reached the level of the best VNs coming out of Japan.

[Crayten]

4 hours ago, TexasDice said:

There is plenty of shit coming out of japan too, so I find the bigoted scorn people harbor towards OELVNs very amusing. 

The problem is that your example is still better than 90% of the released OELVNs.

 

[solidbatman]

There are just as many shit JVNs that get released. We just don't get to see them because lolcolization. OELVN devs are already behind the 8 ball in many aspects. No money, tiny audience, and that audience tends to ignore anything that doesn't try to copy Japanese tropes. That being said, OELVNs make up 2-3 of my top 5 VNs that I've read.

[Black Sands Entertainment]

7 hours ago, Danko said:

 

2) OELVNs are just too different?
Just as there's a sizable cultural gap between the West and the East, OELVNs try to take a different approach in their stories, content and art.
Some of the things I think the western developers often do differently:
-Much less focus on erotic and controversial content, since west traditionally has very strong taboos on sexuality and mature themes
-Non-anime art style (sometimes)
-Less genre (anime\otaku\moe) tropes
-Political correctness and other modern western tropes
-More interactivity (more choices, mini-games, stat raising, genre-mixing)
Now, for some player those changes might be unwelcome and lower their interest in the game. Which of those, I wonder?

 

 

this is not what people complain about. In fact, it is the exact opposite. An american visual novel made by an american who never been in japan makes a game set in tokyo. That is what pisses this community off.

[sanahtlig]

OELVNs are often derided by core fans, but that doesn't make them unpopular.  In fact, some of the most popular and well-known VNs in the West (like Sakura Spirit) are OELVNs.  They seem to be more successful on Steam, likely because: they're priced low, often feature gameplay or greater interactivity than Japanese VNs, and they appeal more directly to a Western audience with familiar tropes.

It's useful to keep in mind that hardcore fans in communities like this don't represent the rule, but the exception.

[Soulless Watcher]

If oelvns completely embraced point #2 I might actually enjoy them allot more. Allot of the times it seems oelvn creators are trying to copy the Japanese visual novel, instead of creating something completely new and using the visual novel format to tell their story. This kinda thing leads to overly cliche story and characters making it hard to read for seasoned visual novel readers who know all the cliches by heart. Granted I can be allot more forgiving to Japanese visual novels when they shove a cliche fest in my face as long as their are some decent h-scenes, something that oelvns usually lack.

Although I think the major issue with oelvns is that the vast majority are made by inexperienced content creators. They either have little idea on how to put a project together, they lack the funds, or they lack the know-how required to run a group. So this leads to a sloppily made project or the complete collapse of the project before it is even finished. 

[Omega_93]

The big problem for OELVN developers is that the actual audience for visual novels is tiny, and it doesn't actually bloody know what it wants. The criteria for what makes a VN sell changes day by day and seems completely arbitrary, as far as I'm concerned. No one is able to release a successful product because the entire thing is basically a gamble. Everyone has to play it safe in order to try build up a bit of revenue before they can even think about making something more experimental than a Japanese setting.

[EdwardWongHPTIV]

My gut feeling is that OELVNs generally promise too much, with too small of budget. You can't produce a game with varied sprites, many HQ CGs, voice acting, and good writing on a shoestring budget. I honestly don't know what the budgets in Japan are like but I'm sure it's more than the 10's of thousands.

Art is another factor. I really, really try not to judge OELVN art vs Japanese VNs but when they mimic the style, it's almost universally looks like crap. I wish they would just go with their own style or excrete the blood, sweat, and tears to do proper backgrounds, sprites, and CGs.

English voice acting... ehh.. I have mixed feelings. Mainly because of anime dubs. I know, I know. We're talking about OELVNs. It's just that a lot of english voice acting is so ham fisted. The scripts don't help and sometimes they try to mimic anime/cartoon voices.... ewww. To be fair I haven't yet played an OELVN with voice acting so this is clearly my anime dub prejudice talking.

TL:DR More budget and do something original with the format (and please don't make my ears bleed).

Edited March 2, 2016 by EdwardWongHPTIV
Typo