R18+ Visual Novels on Steam? [ DISCUSSION ]

[Jason_OCE]

Videogames have been hailed as some of the most amazing storytelling platforms of the 21st century, giving an all new interactive experience to immerse yourself in, and have created one of the largest industries currently in the world. As for Visual Novels, these take the story to all new levels with unique narrative and visual design, becoming the game equivalent of a choose your own adventure book. But when Visual Novels begin to include such themes as nudity and sex in them, they fall away from the mainstream "gaming" market, and even those who are interested in such a game would only know about them if they actively search for that sort of news and content.

 

So, What would happen if Steam was to allow distribution and sales of R18+ Visual Novels?

Surely the world would collapse. 

Steam has been opening itself up to all sorts of innovative inclusions to it's platform, including selling creative softwares for video editing, game capture, and music production. These aren't really games of course, but it makes sense. A lot of gamers are quite creative, from artists, to video editors and youtubers, everyone loves experiencing something awesome as much as someone loves making it. They're also pretty easy to market in sales.

Then of course, we have actual visual novels on Steam. The recent releases of Danganronpa and Nekopara Vol. 2 are just some of the visual novels that are making it to the best selling list, and that's only in the last month. Previously includes the others in the Nekopara series, as well as the steam port of the long standing visual novel Clannad, yes it seems that even if it's not as big as the market is for Team Fortress 2 hats, there is a lot of people out there that want Visual Novels.

Trends recently though, have been pointing towards a more mature entertainment industry, with such triple A titles like GTA5, Black Ops 3 and Witcher 3 all getting R18 releases on steam, as well as Fallout 4 and Witcher 3 getting almost the same ratings. Now most of these are violent and combat relative, so it'd be a bad example right? Well, kinda, but violence is one of the themes that give a mature rating, and the other one, is eroticism. I mean, we just got a VR Controller for adult games that as of writing this, needs only $1000 more to complete it's kickstarter goal and be a thing.

The first step was already taken. The somewhat recent release of Kindred Spirits was Steam's first completely uncensored Visual Novel on Steam. While it was relatively soft in it's actual content, with the story being lighthearted, and the adult content being light and tasteful, it's still the first time that an R18 game has had no changes made to it whatsoever as it's published on Steam. It's also one of the first games on steam to include the "Nudity" tag ( even though Witcher 3 and GTA5 don't have that tag, mainly because it's not a main feature )

Now let's not get ahead of ourselves, I mean a good percentage of visual novels that exist these days are what's called "Nukige", which translates to "masturbation helper". These includes graphic scenes of sex and eroticism as their number one feature. They don't even need a story most of the time. You bought this game? Here's some boobs and sex, and stuff. Of course if these were introduced into the Steam world overnight, there would be a huge fan uproar. Some positive, but most negative. Somebody, think of the children!

I don't think we can plan on where the line between good and bad will lay exactly, but the line itself is moving, inch by inch, in the direction of accepting such games into such an immense online community and ecosystem, it might just see this dying art be made financially feasible again. One or two japanese developers have denied the western world their games^*, purely because there's no reliable platform for their sale, and they'll likely just fall into pirates hands instead. *_{( needs citation )}

But it seems, regardless, we are moving this way slowly. Too slowly maybe? as a customer and user of steam, it'd seem that way, but on the business side of things, there's a lot to take into account. Selling violent games to people is relatively easy, but once you age restrict a product based on sexual content, there's a lot of national laws that need to be taken into account. For example, Australia has very strict anti-child porn laws in effect that include the ban of all adult film actors with A cup size breasts, regardless of their age, and of course this ban extends to other mediums, including a book that was banned because it described a-cup breasts^* in an erotic way *_{( needs citation )}. If Steam moves too quickly and doesn't consider national policy, they can find themselves in some serious trouble.

If French and German consumer groups can take Valve to court ( with limited success ) over reselling digital games, which in itself is completely stupid, then who knows what damage breaking an actual national law would create. So, Steam has been moving very slowly on "Steamy content", but it might be the fastest it can go. So, you'll just have to wait for your english translated japanese manga games, and cat dating simulators.

 

What do you think, is Steam moving in a good direction? Do you condone the dating and mating with fox gods and monster girls being uncensored on the biggest gaming distribution platform in the world? Let me know what you think.

 

~Jason

[Dergonu]

Well hypothetically, if steam was to start selling the VNs they have available currently uncensored it would be quite interesting. It makes it possible for Mangagamer, Sekai Project and the likes to use steam even more actively when selling games. One problem they encounter is that the uncensored version of their game will simply sell more than the original version, simply because steam has a much bigger user base compared to their own homepage. If steam now allows them to release the other games they currently only have on their own homepages, it would be pretty good for them and for western VN comsumers.

 

I do believe some companies that have so far been reluctant to release their games uncensored in the west would be more willing to do so if steam opened up to their games. 

 

I know one reason why steam doesn´t do it is linked to paypal´s policy, though they could simply make it so that the 18+ games cannot be purchased trhough paypal to eliminate that problem. Quite a lazy excuse to hide behind. 

 

Really though, this is something that they have been quite stern on for a long time and I doubt they will actually open up for serious uncensored sexual content on steam. It at least wont become a platform for uncensored VNs any time soon. 

Still, with releases like patchable Nekopara and compeltely uncensored kindered spirits, they are taking a step in the right direction. 

[Arcadeotic]

Well, yes, if Steam sold +18 VNs, it would greatly increase the sales and publicity, but looking at how Steam is at this stage, it looks highly unlikely

Who knows? Maybe in the future years.

But another thing to consider is that these yearly huge Steam sales have largely destroyed the asking prices of games, including VNs.

A few years back 40, even 60 dollars was a completely normal price to ask for a game. Today? Even 20 dollars is asking too much, well at least in the eyes of some people.

What does this entail? The selling of VNs plummet, heavily. If the normal asking price of a VN maybe double or even triple of the normal price of a game today, this means that VNs wouldn't do that well on Steam.

Of course there are cases where this isn't the case. Take Clannad and Winged Cloud for instance. These two have a certain trump card which many other VNs don't have. This being fame and low asking prices.

But it isn't all bad, as if +18 material comes to Steam, this might give a very direly needed edge to VNs.

Hopefully something happens to this, I'll still keep hoping.

For the developers' sake, and for the sake of my dearest hobby.

[DarkZedge]

It would serve many porpouses one of them being widening the market for Vn's and opening people who don't know much about the genre to really good vn that are out there as we know..wether we like it or not steam gets the short end of the stick when it comes to visual novels..they have some good ones but only all-ages and then they get most of the shit that winged cloud and the likes have thrown at us while neglecting really good publishers and developers.

So opening up the restriction would as Senpai very well said allow Mangagamer,Sekai project. JAST and many others to publish on steam there for make more profit thanks to the greater exposure to the market and audience

I for one would be in favor of this as many here would i'd like to think..it'd make it possible for wthe western Vn scene to blossom and attract more people to it.

Still i don't think such a thing will happen now or anytime soon because of how restrictive steam itself is with this kind of content (in all honesty do you see Euphoria making a steam debut without causing controversy?) let's face it..a lot of people are narrow minded when it comes to this kind of thing or genre, i picked an outrageous example i know but it was just to prove a point, steam is really restrictive with nudity and the likes and doesn't either want the problems that giving a place to real Visual Novels would cause them among parents and underage public (even if they're not supposed to play, people always find a way to get their hands on it) and steam wouldn't ever risk that chance because it'd impact them heavily.

Not to mention the prices Vn's these days have...not many people would be willing to pay it but i also think that maybe publishers could lower their prices a bit thanks to big change in exposure and audience that could potentially give them more sales than previously without a platform such as steam.

I hope such a thing could happen but i'm realistic and don't see it ever happening 

Just my two cents here

[mitchhamilton]

5 minutes ago, Arcadeotic said:

Well, yes, if Steam sold +18 VNs, it would greatly increase the sales and publicity, but looking at how Steam is at this stage, it looks highly unlikely

Who knows? Maybe in the future years.

But another thing to consider is that these yearly huge Steam sales have largely destroyed the asking prices of games, including VNs.

A few years back 40, even 60 dollars was a completely normal price to ask for a game. Today? Even 20 dollars is asking too much, well at least in the eyes of some people.

What does this entail? The selling of VNs plummet, heavily. If the normal asking price of a VN maybe double or even triple of the normal price of a game today, this means that VNs wouldn't do that well on Steam.

Of course there are cases where this isn't the case. Take Clannad and Winged Cloud for instance. These two have a certain trump card which many other VNs don't have. This being fame and low asking prices.

But it isn't all bad, as if +18 material comes to Steam, this might give a very direly needed edge to VNs.

Hopefully something happens to this, I'll still keep hoping.

For the developers' sake, and for the sake of my dearest hobby.

insightful as always, goshujin-sama.

 

i doubt its ever gonna happen, unless its light like kindred spirits. i think seeing actual penetration is where the line is drawn, even if mosaic censorship is used. of course it would help vn's in the west but it might receive mostly a negative backlash from people who arent really fans of visual novels and go on steam to play video games, with comments like "Why corrupt steam" or some other whiny bs.

[sanahtlig]

As the OP summarized, developer AJTilley said he was told by Valve that sexually explicit content isn't allowed on Steam due to regional legal restrictions.  Steam is an international service, and therefore has to comply with laws in every region they serve.  Valve said they currently don't have the technical infrastructure to region-restrict explicit content in such a way that it would comply with the vast mosaic of international laws.  Honestly I don't see it ever happening because laws against sexual content are far too vague to reliably predict what types of content aren't allowed since they usually rely on "community standards".  You essentially don't know what's illegal until you lose the court case, causing a massive chilling effect as companies avoid content possibly related to content that could have a remote chance of being prosecuted.  Even the US, the so-called bastion of free speech has such laws, and guessing what would be illegal in that single country is difficult.  Now multiply that by 200.

Even if explicit sexual content were allowed, loli content would likely still be heavily restricted, which would STILL make eroge on Steam a risky proposition.  

[KuroganeHomura]

http://www.engadget.com/2015/12/02/paypal-square-and-big-bankings-war-on-the-sex-industry/

Not happening anytime soon, unfortunately. Not sure if I want it to happen right now, either - even ignoring the above issue, there's the question of what kinds of adult VNs Steam would allow. Somehow I think they'd be a lot more likely to carry Princess Evangile's adult version than, say, euphoria or Maggot Baits. Considering that, I think I prefer the current situation for the time being, at least until the VN market outside of Steam grows some more.

[john 'mr. customer' smith]

43 minutes ago, KuroganeHomura said:

http://www.engadget.com/2015/12/02/paypal-square-and-big-bankings-war-on-the-sex-industry/

I don't understand why these processors keep using the phrase 'high-risk'. Sex sells, so if anything, it's a low-risk business

[VirginSmasher]

1 minute ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

I don't understand why these processors keep using the phrase 'high-risk'. Sex sells, so if anything, it's a low-risk business

As the Sakura games and Nekopara have shown, those type or fanservice and slice of life VNs do sell well, but it's not known if something without a giant fanbase behind it like Grisaia or Clannad had when they were released on Steam. Believe me, I want more good VNs and 18+ VNs would be great to see, but the rules aren't gonna change so easily.

[Baseball3b]

Yeah I really don't see it happening anytime soon. As someone else said, the biggest problem is the regional restrictions since Steam is an international company. That said, I do think we'll be seeing more VNs in general on Steam, people will just have to patch it externally. 

Alternatively, it wouldn't surprise me if another 3rd party distributor lioe Steam, but solely for VNs sprouted up somewhere down the line if VNs keep gaining speed. 

[sanahtlig]

28 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

I don't understand why these processors keep using the phrase 'high-risk'. Sex sells, so if anything, it's a low-risk business

High risk of fraudulent activity.  Like what happened to MangaGamer (even though ironically that was connected to Steam).  It's easier to get away with crime in a poor and underprivileged "neighborhood", to use the analogy from the article.

[CeruleanGamer]

They need a "red light district" in Steam where you cant buy or view games unless you have proper identification/credentials (e.g. date of birth/country restrictions linked to your Steam account). Might be hard to enforce since people can just falsify their shit but it's probably the roundabout way to do it.

[Nayru]

3 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:

They need a "red light district" in Steam where you cant buy or view games unless you have proper identification/credentials (e.g. date of birth/country restrictions linked to your Steam account). Might be hard to enforce since people can just falsify their shit but it's probably the roundabout way to do it.

I was also thinking something like this might be the best way to do it, especially when it comes to R18+ VNs starting to get available on Steam. Personally, I would definitely like to see how something like that would turn out. We probably won't be seeing anything similar in the near future, but maybe one day... One can hope. I agree that the recent releases are definitely a step in the right direction, at least.

[Ryechu]

2 hours ago, CeruleanGamer said:

They need a "red light district" in Steam where you cant buy or view games unless you have proper identification/credentials (e.g. date of birth/country restrictions linked to your Steam account). Might be hard to enforce since people can just falsify their shit but it's probably the roundabout way to do it.

Unfortunately the moment this happens and Little Johnny buys an 18+ game with Mommy and Daddy's credit card, all hell is going to break loose.

And Valve wants nothing to do with that.

[CeruleanGamer]

20 minutes ago, Ryechu said:

Unfortunately the moment this happens and Little Johnny buys an 18+ game with Mommy and Daddy's credit card, all hell is going to break loose.

And Valve wants nothing to do with that.

How is this any different from the prevailing problem with Little Susie getting hold of Mommmy and Daddy's credit card and buying hundreds of $ worth of powerups for her Candy Crush game???... You think Apple/Google Play don't get dozens of these issues every single day?

We cant really blame Valve or these major companies for irresponsible parenting...

[Ryechu]

17 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:

How is this any different from the prevailing problem with Little Susie getting hold of Mommmy and Daddy's credit card and buying hundreds of $ worth of powerups for her Candy Crush game???... You think Apple/Google Play don't get dozens of these issues every single day?

We cant really blame Valve or these major companies for irresponsible parenting...

Big difference between their kid buying porn underage and buying candy tokens(?) underage.

[john 'mr. customer' smith]

56 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:

How is this any different from the prevailing problem with Little Susie getting hold of Mommmy and Daddy's credit card and buying hundreds of $ worth of powerups for her Candy Crush game???... You think Apple/Google Play don't get dozens of these issues every single day?

We cant really blame Valve or these major companies for irresponsible parenting...

It's still their choice not wanting anything to do with it

Also, it's true that having a 'don't enter/buy unless you are over legal age'-barrier is usually enough to prevent/win lawsuits in situations like that, but steam having a 'red light district' like you said is probably going to change it's image, and parents are not going to let their children use steam anymore if they find out about it. I think that's why valve just doesn't want to do it

[CeruleanGamer]

1 hour ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

It's still their choice not wanting anything to do with it

Also, it's true that having a 'don't enter/buy unless you are over legal age'-barrier is usually enough to prevent/win lawsuits in situations like that, but steam having a 'red light district' like you said is probably going to change it's image, and parents are not going to let their children use steam anymore if they find out about it. I think that's why valve just doesn't want to do it

Obviously, extreme measures have to be taken for implementing something like this. Example: Accounts tied to players under 18+ wont get any advertisements or links to the 18+ products. Players who are of age/right country still wont get lots of advertisements/links to those games unless they have bought similar games that are mature/R18 in nature.

So basically the red light district can still work out if it can do a specific "laser targeting" approach when marketing and selling it. I'm a marketing manager irl. I've done this kind of stuff for clients before and it can work out. You just need to tap the right channels and market it in such a way that it can be seen by your adult customers but not little kids.

Besides, those people who own and buy over 2k+ games in their Steam Library? Those are working adults. No kid can ever afford that many games unless they are the kids of Bill Gates. Young adult gamers are the ones bringing in the most revenue to Valve not filthy casual kids who play Minecraft and magical ponies.

Lastly, Steam already can track what games you like when recommending games to you based on your library, discussion acitivity, and which games you have been checking out/wish listing. So it's easy for it to reach out to the right adults who might be interested in uncensored visual novels.

 

[Soulless Watcher]

If steam really wanted to get into the 18+ visual novel business, they would probably set up a completely separate platform for "adult" purchases. 

I know something similar to a "adult" steam exists, it's called Kimochi. Sadly I just found out that they are shutting down latter this month, which isn't very surprising. Most of their titles were very amateurish rpgs.  

[EdwardWongHPTIV]

On 3/1/2016 at 7:40 AM, KuroganeHomura said:

http://www.engadget.com/2015/12/02/paypal-square-and-big-bankings-war-on-the-sex-industry/

Not happening anytime soon, unfortunately. Not sure if I want it to happen right now, either - even ignoring the above issue, there's the question of what kinds of adult VNs Steam would allow. Somehow I think they'd be a lot more likely to carry Princess Evangile's adult version than, say, euphoria or Maggot Baits. Considering that, I think I prefer the current situation for the time being, at least until the VN market outside of Steam grows some more.

Nice link. Yeah... can you imagine the shit fest that would occur in a corporate meeting if they tried to hash out the criteria of what is lawful or acceptable adult content? Can't be done in the first place because the laws can't even codify what is actually deemed illegal. /sigh. Anyway, thanks for the link. As a new fan of VNs this topic has been on my mind. The more you know, the know you grow. Or something.

On 3/1/2016 at 11:56 AM, CeruleanGamer said:

They need a "red light district" in Steam where you cant buy or view games unless you have proper identification/credentials (e.g. date of birth/country restrictions linked to your Steam account). Might be hard to enforce since people can just falsify their shit but it's probably the roundabout way to do it.

That's dicey. You're asking users to identify themselves in a climate in which, if it's not already illegal, (certain) sexual content could always be made illegal. Possibly retroactively. And if, as you point out, people falsify their information then the whole "red light" distinction becomes largely moot.

On 3/1/2016 at 9:14 AM, sanahtlig said:

High risk of fraudulent activity.  Like what happened to MangaGamer (even though ironically that was connected to Steam).  It's easier to get away with crime in a poor and underprivileged "neighborhood", to use the analogy from the article.

It's sorta a catch 22 isn't it? Doesn't mangagamer process credit cards with less anti-fraud measures because doing so could possibly put their customers at risk of the law (depending on region)? Not to mention that the number of credit processing companies that will even deal with them is limited. It's asinine that we even have to have discussions like this in this day and age. Laws and attitudes older than I am, and I'm pretty old, shouldn't be arbitrating these issues. Not that I can't understand the later. It's easy to get stuck in ones ways.

On 3/2/2016 at 7:51 PM, Soulless Watcher said:

If steam really wanted to get into the 18+ visual novel business, they would probably set up a completely separate platform for "adult" purchases. 

I know something similar to a "adult" steam exists, it's called Kimochi. Sadly I just found out that they are shutting down latter this month, which isn't very surprising. Most of their titles were very amateurish rpgs.  

Maybe Gabe would stop telling casters they're assholes if his own platform sported a little T'n'A? joking aside it would kinda defeat the purpose for me if it was a separate site with only adult games. I'd welcome a competitor to Steam that would sell *all* the gameys. Competition is good, no?

[sanahtlig]

16 minutes ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

It's sorta a catch 22 isn't it? Doesn't mangagamer process credit cards with less anti-fraud measures because doing so could possibly put their customers at risk of the law (depending on region)?

I don't think that's how it works.  In fact, such companies usually require additional anti-fraud protection steps (like credit card CV code).  My guess is that being forced to use non-mainstream payment processors, and then being compelled to use the cheapest of the "high-risk" payment processors, results in corners being cut on security.  In addition, small companies like MangaGamer make easy targets because their security infrastructure is poor, and the industry itself is small and fragmented so they don't have the ability to lobby law enforcement and/or payment processors for better protection.  It all goes back to the "poor underprivileged neighborhood" argument.

[EdwardWongHPTIV]

7 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

I don't think that's how it works.  In fact, such companies usually require additional anti-fraud protection steps (like credit card CV code).  My guess is that being forced to use non-mainstream payment processors, and then being compelled to use the cheapest of the "high-risk" payment processors, results in corners being cut on security.  In addition, small companies like MangaGamer make easy targets because their security infrastructure is poor, and the industry itself is small and fragmented so they don't have the ability to lobby law enforcement and/or payment processors for better protection.  It all goes back to the "poor underprivileged neighborhood" argument.

You may be right. Probably are right. I only went down that road because, iirc, mangagamer doesn't require your name or address (save for physical shipments). But admittedly that theory falls apart as soon as the credit card name is considered. Still, if mangagamer doesn't cache these details it would mean slightly more paperwork to the credit card processing company to get them! Who am I kidding it probably doesn't even require actual paperwork.. well depending on the country...

I thought I remember mangagamer needing the CV code? But there was no address/zip code? My memory is bad though. Take that with a grain of salt.

Apparently CV codes aren't effective in protecting consumers themselves. There are enough sites/businesses that don't require them to make the sale of credit card details a viable business. But I digress, that's a separate matter.

Anyway, do you think the removal of adult/obscene/pornographic (forgot the word used) transactions from the high-risk category will help???

I'm a half-empty kind of guy so I'm going to go with a, "Helllllllllllllll, no".

[sanahtlig]

12 minutes ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

Anyway, do you think the removal of adult/obscene/pornographic (forgot the word used) transactions from the high-risk category will help???

I think it'll be about as effective as telling businesses it's against the rules to discriminate against minorities and women in hiring.  Businesses discriminate because they see it as best for their bottomline.  In doing so, they create a self-fulfilling prophecy: the more they discriminate, the more the clients discriminated against actually do become higher-risk.

[EdwardWongHPTIV]

Yeah, discrimination is a tricky thing. I get the feeling that the most they'll ever get is a slap on the wrist so long as they apply their policy universally. Nothing is worse then evidence that you treated the same scenario more than one way. If you're universal in your approach it's easier to argue/spin that it was a misunderstanding, unintentional application, etc, excuses, etc. And you're exactly right, it's all about the bottom line. I doubt they promote diversity in the hopes of gaining significant market share from these communities. It's about perceptions. It's the consumers who support them that they want to *retain* as customers. The penalty for discriminating on the basis of adult products would have to be pretty damn high for them to care.

Higher risk in that they have to deal with less reputable lenders and trading partners? And thus have cash flow issues that result in them busting or passing the costs to the consumer? Sounds about right. Once you have some shady high interest secured loan against your business legitimate lenders probably wouldn't give you the time of day even before considering this topic. If nothing else their credit rating is probably ruined in the course of things.