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Lewd content in the east vs the west


InvertMouse

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Hello there ^_^. So it looks like VNs that include boobs, sex or even just yuri tend to sell way better than those without. A lot of gamers outside the community hate visual novels, though. "Ugh, another bewbs game", "Stahp" and whatever else.

I remember a few years ago, Mass Effect 1 ran into a bit of controversy with their sex scenes. Compared to VNs, they were as tame as could be, but still, I think gamers in general defended Mass Effect. Gamers want the public to know we are mature enough to handle these topics. The Mass Effect issue even went on Fox News:

I doubt many gamers would have sided with the psychology specialist in that segment. How come sex in a western title is viewed so differently from visual novels? Is it because some VNs have kinky sex? Or is it the fact that a lot of anime girls look underaged? Many of the answers will seem obvious, but I am still fine with hearing about them and maybe start a discussion from here.

Sorry to finish with a downer, but let's keep the chat on topic. I have been seeing posts where people are using threads to promote their game/story/art/music etc. Mentioning projects in passing is okay, but it is beyond obvious when the intention is to plug. People can post what they like, but in some forum, that type of behavior would result in warnings, and I want to bring it up ahead of time.

Thanks ^_^!

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The topic of sex in America is, quite frankly, fucking ridiculous and confusing as hell. Sex is a completely healthy and natural process of the human condition, why it has been demonized and treated like a taboo subject is beyond me. God only knows what the childrens will do if they learn about sex at an early age, so they might be more mentally prepared when they hit puberty. Because the inevitability of hiding the facts of sex will lead them to learn the majority of the subject matter from High/Middle school, and that will never go well. 

Although I do get why "gamers" don't really like visual novels, because VNs are not really games (for the most part). I always kinda viewed them as picture books for grownups, so I can understand why a community that is used to COD,  Starcraft, or League of Legends would not be enamored with the genre. 

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Visual novels are often focused on romantic relationships--hooking the protagonist up with a girl.  Routes are usually focused on getting the girl.  The games are marketed (you can stop laughing now) with wide-eyed petite cartoon girls featured prominently.  The games scream "masturbation aides for frustrated young men with an unusual taste for little girls".

Compare this with games like Mass Effect.  These are games about fighting bad guys and saving the world.  The male protagonist gets the attention in the cover image.  The romance is secondary, and indeed any story branching isn't generally heroine-focused.

The purpose of such games is radically different.  It's cool to play games about beating up bad guys.  It's not cool to play dating sims with cartoon girl children that fawn all over you.

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Witcher and Grand Theft Auto get away with sex in their games too. As long as sex isn't the primary selling point of the game, and a prominent attribute such as the protagonist, gameplay, or other mechanics overshadow sexual content, then the game can easily get away with it.

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1 hour ago, InvertMouse said:

A lot of gamers outside the community hate visual novels, though.

I know this isn't really the main thing you wanted to talk about, but I do want to talk to this one point briefly - the general gaming communities I've been involved with were basically completely unaware of the existence of visual novels (though that changed a bit a few months ago when Hatoful Boyfriend, of all things, was briefly popular on reddit). I'm sure there are some outspoken gamers out there who are actually aware of visual novels and hate them, but the vastly larger population of gamers is simply completely unaware of their existence, for better or worse.

I haven't actually seen an example of people exhibiting the double standard you seem to be hinting at: the same people saying good things about games like Mass Effect, which prominently feature sex, and also slamming visual novels specifically because of their sex content.

If I had to guess, you'll probably find that the reasons are usually separate: gamers who hate visual novels probably by and large feel that way because they find them boring - there's no gameplay, and little or no animation to hold their attention; people who would object to sexual content in a VN, on the other hand, will probably say the same negative things about the sex in Mass Effect or The Witcher.

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44 minutes ago, Fred the Barber said:

If I had to guess, you'll probably find that the reasons are usually separate: gamers who hate visual novels probably by and large feel that way because they find them boring - there's no gameplay, and little or no animation to hold their attention; people who would object to sexual content in a VN, on the other hand, will probably say the same negative things about the sex in Mass Effect or The Witcher.

Continuing this off topic to throw a comment in. 

From my experience the people that know about visuals novels AND those who don't, but when you tell them what they are, tend to dislike them simply for the fact they are Japanese and quickly associate it with hentai and being weird, not for the no game-play. Though the no game-play can obviously still be a reason, it isn't the predominate one in my experience. 

Also when I watched that video and the psycho w/e was saying how kids would go for the sex and obviously not try to avoid it, I think is pretty stupid. Yeah a kid can play Mass Effect with out parental supervision and after 15+ hours get a two minute sex scene, or they can go on pornhub at any age they wish and get access to THOUSANDS of hours of free porn, also with out adult supervision, and way easier. 

I am just led to believe western societies much rather accept violence to be shown at young ages versus sexual behaviors. Not much you can do about it but imo, pretty stupid. That said I doubt I will let my kid have anything to do with sexual content or violence at a young age so... 

At 13 though sex in Mass Effect isn't really a big deal. You know how much porn I watched by 13? Not to mention I was playing M rated games since 3/4. 

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3 hours ago, InvertMouse said:

I doubt many gamers would have sided with the psychology specialist in that segment. How come sex in a western title is viewed so differently from visual novels? Is it because some VNs have kinky sex? Or is it the fact that a lot of anime girls look underaged? Many of the answers will seem obvious, but I am still fine with hearing about them and maybe start a discussion from here.

Sanah touched on one aspect, I'll touch on another. The sex in Mass Effect is not explicit, compared to the sex in the majority of VNs which IS explicit. 

Most importantly though, Lawrence used the game 'Mass Effect' as an example to back up her point. Badly. See, she had asked a person backstage for an example of a video game with sex scenes and she got the reply - Mass Effect has lots and lots of pornography. Unfortunately for her, Mass Effect does NOT have lots and lots of pornography, in fact Mass Effect has zero pornography at all. When asked whether she played the game during the interview, she said 'no'. Obviously this was always going to result in much ridicule.

Which was why the author suddenly found an influx of reviews of her book on Amazon. Reviews like this:

"I know all about this book but have never fully read it. Why? Due to the overwhelming backlash, I have no choice but to agree with the 1 star ratings. The rumors are rampant that this book was poorly written and poorly researched. So without verifying the contents myself - I give it a 1 star. Good thing video games aren't judged in this manner - whew!!!"

And this meant she had to deliver a public apology. So, why is sex in Mass Effect viewed so innocently? Because there was no EXPLICIT sex in Mass Effect.

Cerulean Gamer brings up a point about the Witcher, which purportedly does include sex related images. BUT you have to remember that the Witcher has a reputation on the internet as being a sexist (some say misogynistic) game, because of how women are treated in it. Obviously this treatment of women is consistent with the world, it's not a nice place, but that doesn't stop the argument that the Witcher is sexist. Furthermore, the sex cards from the first Witcher were CENSORED in the American version of the game (along with some other stuff) and only available uncensored in the international version (of which I have.) Sex cards were not included in the second installment of the game, probably because of complaints. I have no experience with Grand Theft Auto, although if you recall the 'Hot Coffee mod' sparked a massive, MASSIVE furore.

So I see no inconsistent treatment with regard to Western Games and VNs. 

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The answer is simple. America sux. End conversation. There are 50 states with completely different cultural norms. On top of this, there are two political ideologies in each and every state.

They all have their bigoted, religious, racial, and whatever else extremes and refuse to compromise. 

If visual novels ever wish to reach the western audience, they must first pick a median that is accepting to the extremes that is already established in the west. Like "Dark Fantasy" or "Graphic Novels."

One simply must say "Interactive Graphic Novel" instead of Visual Novel and the stigma is gone automatically.

 

15 hours ago, InvertMouse said:

Hello there ^_^. So it looks like VNs that include boobs, sex or even just yuri tend to sell way better than those without. A lot of gamers outside the community hate visual novels, though. "Ugh, another bewbs game", "Stahp" and whatever else.

I remember a few years ago, Mass Effect 1 ran into a bit of controversy with their sex scenes. Compared to VNs, they were as tame as could be, but still, I think gamers in general defended Mass Effect. Gamers want the public to know we are mature enough to handle these topics. The Mass Effect issue even went on Fox News:

I doubt many gamers would have sided with the psychology specialist in that segment. How come sex in a western title is viewed so differently from visual novels? Is it because some VNs have kinky sex? Or is it the fact that a lot of anime girls look underaged? Many of the answers will seem obvious, but I am still fine with hearing about them and maybe start a discussion from here.

Sorry to finish with a downer, but let's keep the chat on topic. I have been seeing posts where people are using threads to promote their game/story/art/music etc. Mentioning projects in passing is okay, but it is beyond obvious when the intention is to plug. People can post what they like, but in some forum, that type of behavior would result in warnings, and I want to bring it up ahead of time.

Thanks ^_^!

BTW, conservatives republicans are the worst. Never take fox's opinions on anything EVER.

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Honestly this sounds like I'm angst incarnate but I think that the main reason is religion. It's dogmatic and it vilifies sex, especially for families with extremely religious parents that can all too easily lead to suppression of sexuality. It's a horrendous thing. There's too much of a stigma around sex, though it not being on the level of what you had for lunch the day before is understandable given how intimate an act it is.

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Hehehe. I bet if none of our parents or schools taught or influenced most of us on religion at a very young age, bet none of us Generation X, Generation Y, or Millenials would give a fuck about gods, ethics, and beliefs influencing our choices in visual novels.

It's always education and parents to blame.

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@Fred the Barber: Mass Effect 1 doesn't "prominently" feature sex. You spend the game romancing your chosen love interest from among 2 girls if I'm right, and that is altogether optional. Then, before the climactic final battle, you have some intimacy with your girl, and the *single* sex scene in the game happens. Of course, with Bioware having been accused of blatant SJW militancy in some internet dens, there's the reasonable option of being a girl MC and romancing men.

I consider Mass Effect 1 to be a mediocre game, and don't want to be involved with its sequels, but that's an altogether different discussion, dealing with Bioware's stagnation and so.

@Funyarinpa: religion is neutral if taken in moderation, it can even be a good thing for kids (to make them inclined to good and moral behavior). Religious person =/= bigot. Also, I'm not buying the argument that religion makes us embarrassed and guilty about sex. I was from primary education to high school in a religious school ran by priests (but the regular teachers were secular civilians), and my interest on sex developed naturally. Nobody was checking in on us to see what we thought about it. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that too much freedom isn't good, at least without information. Sex *should* be discussed openly, since accidental pregnancies and STDs are a very real possibility. Very young people could put their urges before the risks, and that isn't good. Also, young people need other things to focus on *besides* sex.

About VNs perceivedly being for losers and all that... well, there are a bunch of "failed males" who can't get girlfriends (and the same is true for women I suppose), so once again, hiding the fact won't do any good to any party. Once again, aside from the fact that sex is beneficial and worthy, we find that there are more things in life besides it. It's all the more stupid when you find hikikomori that play regular videogames bashing hikikomori that play VNs. We should aim to include, not exclude.

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2 hours ago, Funyarinpa said:

Honestly this sounds like I'm angst incarnate but I think that the main reason is religion. It's dogmatic and it vilifies sex, especially for families with extremely religious parents that can all too easily lead to suppression of sexuality. It's a horrendous thing. There's too much of a stigma around sex, though it not being on the level of what you had for lunch the day before is understandable given how intimate an act it is.

I'm an hardcore antitheist, but I don't think religion has a major role in this.

7 hours ago, Kawasumi said:

one sentence.

Cultural Differences

Eroge are not well received by the general public even in japan, they can survive only because there is an established niche market.

13 minutes ago, Okarin said:

religion is neutral if taken in moderation, it can even be a good thing for kids

Nah religion is always bad, it's severe brainwashing with bullshit information about supernatural beings and outdated ethic codes that serves no purposes in our modern era.

Opposition to eroge comes from current ethics such as gender equality mixed with overall ingorance of the media, religion has a small role in this.

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Religion is positive as long as it gives you strength on your daily life, and in life's ordeals. Like any other thing, to be sure.

I've long realized that religion by itself doesn't make a person better of worse: bad people will crook it and good people will be good with or without it. This explains why there are immoral priests and honest laymen.

About the supernatural, no one really knows, and pretending otherwise is just arrogant. But you can believe what you choose to.

Gender equality... meh, the same women who could bash eroge are the same who demand (or would really like to have) improbable partners with long hours of gym, salaries in the thirty thousands, and incapable of feeling stressed, or so much as being wrong.

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This thread is heading the religion/politics-centric territory and that always ends up like shit hitting the fan and splattering everyone.

All I can say is absolutely no entity/belief/person should dictate anyone what to fucking do and people need to stop pointing out that what they can or cannot do is caused by religion or ethics. YOU HAVE CONTROL, not somebody's puppet. Exercise it as long as it's within the law and doesn't lock you up in jail for it.

I'm all for freedom, freedom, and more freedom. Did I say freedom? No? Then, have some more freedom, motherfuckers.

FREEDOM!!!

#Freedom

This message is brought to you by CeruleanGamer and all the freedom fighters of Fuwanovel. Please exercise freedom responsibly.

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5 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:

This thread is heading the religion/politics-centric territory and that always ends up like shit hitting the fan and splattering everyone.

All I can say is absolutely no entity/belief/person should dictate anyone what to fucking do and people need to stop pointing out that what they can or cannot do is caused by religion or ethics. YOU HAVE CONTROL, not somebody's puppet. Exercise it. 

I'm all for freedom, freedom, and more freedom. Did I say freedom? No? Then, have some more freedom, motherfuckers.

FREEDOM!!!

#Freedom

Absolute freedom will only lead people to commit criminal acts. Remember the wild west? Of course is also truth no one can truly dictate what or not somebody can really do.Freedom is good but you gotta have some balance and order unless you want everything turn into chaos. (Some people only wants to see the world burn!!!:upupu:)

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2 hours ago, Okarin said:

I consider Mass Effect 1 to be a mediocre game, and don't want to be involved with its sequels, but that's an altogether different discussion, dealing with Bioware's stagnation and so.

ME1 is considered, by hardcore RPG fans, to be the best RPG of the series and the worst game. It has the most RPG mechanics and the tightest story of the series (probably due to Drew Karypshyn.) That being said, the shooter mechanics were very basic and it was buggy to all get out. 

Bioware stripped most of the RPG mechanics out of ME2 and consequently it's the lightest RPG of the series. It also had a storyline which was a glorified 'gather your companions' quest. This was when people started talking about Bioware stagnation and EA and whatever. I believe the main complaint beforehand was Bioware drifting away from their PC roots. 

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Well I better throw my hat into the devolution of this thread and give my brief views on religion. I am pretty anti-organized religion, but I am not anti-religious. I believe for every individual on the planet there is a religion. Be that a god, gods, spirits, reincarnation, the spaghetti monster, or simply your own observations that form the basis. The corruption of religion occurs when people try and staple a hierarchy on it. Religion should be a personal experience of self discovery on the meaning of life to each individual, you shouldn't be told the meaning of life by someone else.

I always love how people try to blame a certain group for the world's problems and never actually realize the cause is what all these groups have in common. PEOPLE. People are the root of all evil and will taint any ideology, regardless of original intent, to something harmful and hateful to the human race as a whole.

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