Conjueror's Untranslated Visual Novel Tournament [Discussion]

[Suzu Fanatic]

Gonna stand by Akagoei atm.

[CeruleanGamer]

21 hours ago, gustave154 said:

i really want Sakuuta to win but lets be honest its gonna get translated once subahibi comes out. dies irae or baldr sky is probably the best choice. 

Dont join the scrub bandwagoners. Vote/root for the VN you want to win.

Polls/competitions like this get ruined because of morons who just jump the bandwagon and dont do their research or indecisive fools who just follow the majority.

[Down]

I mean, going with what's popular isn't any less valid a reason to vote than another. Looking at what's popular and what's not, whether we end up partaking in the bandwagon or the underdog phenomenon, is unavoidably one of the elements through which we form our opinions.

[CeruleanGamer]

56 minutes ago, Down said:

I mean, going with what's popular isn't any less valid a reason to vote than another. Looking at what's popular and what's not, whether we end up partaking in the bandwagon or the underdog phenomenon, is unavoidably one of the elements through which we form our opinions.

I like using this example to break down bandwagoning: Sakura Santa is popular, therefore Sakura Santa is a great VN.

Not every VN that is popular has the same standards and value to each person and "great" is scaled differently with each individual's tastes, thus everyone should at least read the synopsis of what they are voting for rather than just voting blindly or voting because the majority says so. If you agree with the majority initially, that's fine, but if your vote/opinions are easily swayed because someone told you so, then you are nothing but a puppet.  

[Rose]

17 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:

I like using this example to break down bandwagoning: Sakura Santa is popular, therefore Sakura Santa is a great VN.

Not every VN that is popular has the same standards and value to each person and "great" is scaled differently with each individual's tastes, thus everyone should at least read the synopsis of what they are voting for rather than just voting blindly or voting because the majority says so. If you agree with the majority initially, that's fine, but if your vote/opinions are easily swayed because someone told you so, then you are nothing but a puppet.  

Voting by reading the synopsis is no better than just listening to what people say, I don't think you can even begin evaluating how good something is just by a short text that might not even impart the promises properly. Regardless of all that, this is about what people want to see translated the most, quality means nothing, hype means everything. 

[Maxel]

Damn, that's what we can call "close battle"

Go Senshinkan! I believe!

[VirginSmasher]

Just now, Maxel said:

Damn, that's what we can call "close battle"

Go Senshinkan! I believe!

And I said Senshinkan would destroy Parfait. I underestimated Parfait quite a bit 

I'm still rooting for Senshinkan.

[Darklord Rooke]

28 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said:

And I said Senshinkan would destroy Parfait. I underestimated Parfait quite a bit 

I'm still rooting for Senshinkan.

Masada tends to be rated highly due to the quality of his writing, he is said to be a superb writer, but does he write stuff a lot of people want to read? It's the age old literature vs genre fiction thing - literature is said to be of a higher quality while genre fiction is said to be entertaining. Because of this literature gets the higher rated reviews and a lot of the awards, but in sales genre fiction destroys modern literature. Similarly in VNs the ones which sell the most are not the ones which are said to be of highest quality. Sakura no Uta came in 9th in the recent Getchu sales chart, Custom Maid 3D2 came in 2nd (is that right?) And in the West, well, I think we all know what's dominating the sale chart here. Quality is about art, but popularity is about entertainment. You won't really see that in this poll due to the low number of participants and the community the poll is aimed at, but I think you're seeing it a little.

Also, Parfait is supposed to be really good ... apparently (I wouldn't know )

[Decay]

That's an apt comparison, I suppose, but in the world of VNs the top-tier writers such as Masada are probably on the genre fiction level while most of the rest are equivalent to fanfic or worse. I suppose people generally want the least complicated entertainment option available to them.

[Down]

5 hours ago, CeruleanGamer said:

I like using this example to break down bandwagoning: Sakura Santa is popular, therefore Sakura Santa is a great VN.

Not every VN that is popular has the same standards and value to each person and "great" is scaled differently with each individual's tastes, thus everyone should at least read the synopsis of what they are voting for rather than just voting blindly or voting because the majority says so. If you agree with the majority initially, that's fine, but if your vote/opinions are easily swayed because someone told you so, then you are nothing but a puppet.  

I wasn't really going for the quality argument here. Not that way at least.

There's no way to know beforehand whether something is good or not beyond more or less useful clues with importance that'll depend on individuals. Synopses are terrible, I don't think I've ever watched/read something because I read its synopsis. I barely ever read them anyway. I don't think it's a very useful indicator.
Genre (or tags) is a useful way of finding more things you might like, but it's still a very broad indicator. I know I'm more likely to enjoy denpa or SF than romantic drama but if you ask me whether Shizuku or White Album 2 should be translated I'll go with the second one.

In the end popularity is left as a pretty useful criteria for deciding what you want. If everyone says x is good I'll be tempted to check it out to see what it's all about. It's hard to trust blind incoherent masses like a vndb top but even if I restrict the criteria to a subset of people whose taste I sort of know and trusts, I'm still using the popularity criteria. If I'm swayed away from voting for Senshinkan because lots of people said Parfait was really cool, am I really a puppet? (Btw I don't really believe we have much free will but that's another question) No, I just reconsidered thing, because if all those people I know say it's cool, than eh, I might want to try it out.

Reviews are of course another good way of finding stuff, but they're pretty scarce when it comes to untl'd VNs.

3 hours ago, Rooke said:

Masada tends to be [...]

Masada consistently enough makes 5 digits sales (with Dies going over 50k). In this industry, in japan, he's without a shred of doubt a (very) popular writer.
I don't think comparing "story eroge" sales with games that go beyond the pure eroge crowd like nukige or CM3D2 is fair since none of the latter are in this contest.

[Darklord Rooke]

7 hours ago, Down said:

Masada consistently enough makes 5 digits sales (with Dies going over 50k). In this industry, in japan, he's without a shred of doubt a (very) popular writer.

'5 digit sales' is a vague descriptor that can mean '10,000', a figure which is a fairly poor number for a writer who's supposed to be as popular as he is, imo. A top writer should (in a perfect world) be dragging in more than that. Anyway, I've had a look at the Getchu sales charts so let's take a little look-see:

According to the Getchu sales charts, Senshinkan ranked 41st for the year of 2014. It ranked 4th for the month of February before basically falling off the charts the next month (compared with Hapymaher ~Fragmentation Dream~, which topped February, stayed in the top 20 the next month, and ranking 9th for the year.)

Kajiri Kamui Kagura didn’t rate in the yearly charts, it ranked 24th for the month of October 2011, then fell off the charts the month after.

Paradise Lost didn’t rate in the yearly charts, (came in 20th for the month of Jan before falling off the charts,) although Dear My Friend came in about 40th for 2004.

Soushuu Senshinkan Gakuen Basenjin ranked 8th or 9th in the monthly charts and wasn’t in the top 50 in the yearly.

Dies Irae may very well be the only real hit Masada had, topping the Getchu charts in December 2007 and coming in 12th for the year in 2007 despite being released in December. So let’s not blow the success of Masada out of all proportion, what I'm seeing is that without Dies Irae his sales figures look okay but nothing special.

TL;DR – Masada may be a writer which generates a lot of hype in certain communities, and may be considered one of the top writers in the VN industry, but that doesn’t seem to be translating into a whole lot of sales. Or even consistent sales. That's just a preliminary assessment going by Getchu, and I'm sure you have a more complete picture considering you live in Japan.

7 hours ago, Down said:

I don't think comparing "story eroge" sales with games that go beyond the pure eroge crowd like nukige or CM3D2 is fair since none of the latter are in this contest.

It was an example to illustrate a point which IS relevant.

[Maxel]

I think Masada works would fit western audiencies better.

Anyway, Senshinkan passed *yaay* and It's time to update the bracket, left side of the table is done (for now) You guys see the pattern ^^? It's better to be on top.

Forgot to add, vote for Hatsusaku!  

[VirginSmasher]

It was a tough choice, but I decided to vote for Sayonara...then I accidentally picked Hatsuyuki 

[suikashoujo]

Come on SayoOshi, I believe in you...!

 

...I mean, it probably doesn't stand a chance against Dies Irae, but what does to most people voting? The pain of not being into chuuni...

[Rose]

8 minutes ago, suikashoujo said:

Come on SayoOshi, I believe in you...!

 

...I mean, it probably doesn't stand a chance against Dies Irae, but what does to most people voting? The pain of not being into chuuni...

At least it's getting translated already, chuuni in general are less likely to be translated. ;-------------;

[Yuuko]

Is this the time I'm supposed to write here how awesome Hatsusaku is...?  

[Maxel]

16 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Is this the time I'm supposed to write here how awesome Hatsusaku is...?  

It probably is.

It's not like Im biased or something, but what are reedeming qualities of Sayooshi? Art looks like ... Unknown writer... No other good titles from him/company... NVL format... It's a 15 yrs old VN, and it's short. And you're telling me that it's winning based on 240~~ votes O_O? Is this Muramasa story quality or what? I'm not buying this, even if tags are making it look pretty good. It wouldn't sell anyway. Unless I was a guy born in 1980 who doesn't care about anything beside the story I don't think I would vote for Sayooshi.

Spoiler

 

 

 

Come on guys... I know you all love horrors etc. but there's Pyaa to vote for

 

 

[WinterfuryZX]

Looks like the usual moe-shit to me, I'm getting a Twitter account only to vote for Sayooshi. LOL.

[Down]

Quote

It's not like Im biased or something, but what are reedeming qualities of Sayooshi? Art looks like ... Unknown writer... No other good titles from him/company... NVL format... It's a 15 yrs old VN, and it's short. And you're telling me that it's winning based on 240~~ votes O_O? Is this Muramasa story quality or what? I'm not buying this, even if tags are making it look pretty good. It wouldn't sell anyway. Unless I was a guy born in 1980 who doesn't care about anything beside the story I don't think I would vote for Sayooshi.

It has the redeeming quality of "being really good". Also booh if you don't like the end 90s art style. And it has good music. Also considering it's more written like a novel than a VN,  NVL fits better than ADV. (Or rather it reads more like a VN because of the NVL format... it goes both ways)

 

 

[Darklord Rooke]

7 minutes ago, Down said:

Also considering it's more written like a novel than a VN,  NVL fits better than ADV. (Or rather it reads more like a VN because of the NVL format... it goes both ways)

:3 True.

Also, with NVL there's more techniques a writer can apply with the prose, and therefore more effects a writer can generate. Obviously it gets in the way of the image somewhat, but Harmonia’s screenshots look real nice  Just off the top of my head, a writer can play with the pacing of a sentence with judicious placement of the words 'he/she said' that cannot be done with ADV format. It can, and does, make a big difference.

I realise it's not a popular format though  

[Decay]

Fujisaki gets away with being ridiculously verbose in the Grisaia series using the ADV format. The english translation manages to fit entire freaking paragraphs of text in one "line." 

But yeah, obviously NVL has its benefits. I don't really get the hate for it some people have.

[Kawasumi]

okay I need to admit that I wanna read hatsusaku.

 

But sayooshi is what we need, its considered a denpa classic and it gives the good PTSD which is what im looking for in a vn

2 minutes ago, Decay said:

Fujisaki gets away with being ridiculously verbose in the Grisaia series using the ADV format. The english translation manages to fit entire freaking paragraphs of text in one "line." 

 

Hidden Content

 

But yeah, obviously NVL has its benefits. I don't really get the hate for it some people have.

some Shakespearean shit right there .

I enjoy mixed NVL and adv the most tbh, I think both get somewhat tiring to read after a while, NVL because: a lot of text at once, ADV: because there is a lot of "unnecessary" text

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, WinterfuryZX said:

Looks like the usual moe-shit to me, I'm getting a Twitter account only to vote for Sayooshi. LOL.

Even Sakura no Uta looks like the usual moe-shit ; )

 

Imo some of Hatsusaku's endings can be labeled as utsu.

[Down]

Yeah ADV allows to be verbose too, writers like Fujisaki or Jackson pack their text box with very meaty lines, but not in the same way NVL does. It's just two fundamentally different ways of delivering the text, and the choice can be very important.

Typically, if you ask anyone what really stands out in SayoOshi, chances are he'll answer "the atmosphere". Now, I don't have Empson's degree of depth when it comes to explaining what exactly atmosphere means but certainly a lot of stuff goes on in the text itself and the descriptions that are made. Sayooshi simply wouldn't work in ADV. I think the use of NVL in earlier eroge, when resolution was pretty low and filling ADV text boxes limited, allowed the opening of more possibilities and the fostering of more variety for writers. Arguably nowadays it's less of an issue, but using NVL or switching NVL/ADV can bring about interesting stuff still. (I haven't read him yet but an obvious example would be Mareni, who I doubt could ever write the stuff he does in his rail-soft games in an ADV format, although that's more the exception than the rule).

[VirginSmasher]

7 hours ago, Kawasumi said:

okay I need to admit that I wanna read hatsusaku.

 

But sayooshi is what we need, its considered a denpa classic and it gives the good PTSD which is what im looking for in a vn

Good old PTSD. Now I really wish I hadn't messed up on my vote